.

[Primemuscle]

My mother was a public school teacher and principal so believe me I know 10x about what teachers go through than you do. Skip has it right. You have it wrong and you are also confusing the issues because you have no clue what your talking about. Public employees make their money because their salaries are taken from my paycheck, your paycheck and every other tax payers paycheck. I don't give a fuck about what corporations make or donate to politicians because they make their money through the marketplace in the form of goods and services that people pay for with their disposable income.

I seriously doubt you know ten times what I know. Perhaps you mom forgot to teach some of the hard facts. I am a retired public school employee and a union leader. I know a few things too.

You are right, everyone who pays taxes, including your mom and I who were apparently both public employees. So, in effect she and I payed a minuscule portion of our own wages and benefits (maybe my taxes kept you in diapers)....seems a bit ironic, doesn't it. Corporations pay taxes into the general fund, except if they avoid paying taxes through various loopholes in our taxing system. The general fund pays public employees salaries and benefits among other obligations. If you think it is fair that corporations not pay taxes and all of us working smucks, like you, me and you mom foot the bill for them, then you mom really didn't do much to educate you.

[Soul Crusher]

Public workers are tax takers not tax makers.

[Primemuscle]

Public workers are tax takers not tax makers.

The tax makers, as you put it, are the elected government officials, Representatives, Senators, Governors, the President. If you don't like what their doing, vote them out office. All workers, public and private pay taxes. The middle class is the mainstay of taxes in this country.

[Soul Crusher]

[tonymctones]

The tax makers, as you put it, are the elected government officials, Representatives, Senators, Governors, the President. If you don't like what their doing, vote them out office. All workers, public and private pay taxes. The middle class is the mainstay of taxes in this country.

govt officials, reps, senators, pres etc...also pay taxes so whats your point?

less tax income for the federal govt means less to pay public employees which means they should contribute more...reason they dont contribute at all and have lush deals?

public unions...

[Primemuscle]

govt officials, reps, senators, pres etc...also pay taxes so whats your point?

less tax income for the federal govt means less to pay public employees which means they should contribute more...reason they dont contribute at all and have lush deals?

public unions...

No offense intended, but you are simply too dense to bother having a conversation about this topic with. Obviously you have issues with public employees. That's your right no matter how misguided your thinking is. I will say this, if you think public employment is so "lush" you should give it a try. Then come back and we can  have this conversation. Perhaps you'll be more credible.

[Soul Crusher]

Public unions should be banned and are only a creature of executive order by JFK. 

Even FDR said they should not exist and have a conflict of interest with the needs of the public and taxpayers.   

[tonymctones]

No offense intended, but you are simply too dense to bother having a conversation about this topic with. Obviously you have issues with public employees. That's your right no matter how misguided your thinking is. I will say this, if you think public employment is so "lush" you should give it a try. Then come back and we can  have this conversation. Perhaps you'll be more credible.

hate to bust your ignorant talking point with anybody who is against unions but my father is a letter carrier for the post office...

I have no problem with public employees, I simply have a problem with ppl who want free stuff and idiot who think that bus drivers who work 4 hours a day, janitors and line cooks are supposed to be middle class and then have problems with management making 100k a year

[Hereford]

I seriously doubt you know ten times what I know. Perhaps you mom forgot to teach some of the hard facts. I am a retired public school employee and a union leader. I know a few things too.

You are right, everyone who pays taxes, including your mom and I who were apparently both public employees. So, in effect she and I payed a minuscule portion of our own wages and benefits (maybe my taxes kept you in diapers)....seems a bit ironic, doesn't it. Corporations pay taxes into the general fund, except if they avoid paying taxes through various loopholes in our taxing system. The general fund pays public employees salaries and benefits among other obligations. If you think it is fair that corporations not pay taxes and all of us working smucks, like you, me and you mom foot the bill for them, then you mom really didn't do much to educate you.

And there we hav the typical union attitude.  If you can't bully 'em, insult 'em.

And blame someone else while you're at it. It's ok for public unions to play bullshit games because hey, maybe someone else might be doing it too.

Unions are nothing more than a crutch for the substandard.

[Primemuscle]

hate to bust your ignorant talking point with anybody who is against unions but my father is a letter carrier for the post office...

I have no problem with public employees, I simply have a problem with ppl who want free stuff and idiot who think that bus drivers who work 4 hours a day, janitors and line cooks are supposed to be middle class and then have problems with management making 100k a year

Is you father, the letter carrier making enough money to be considered middle class? Why is that? I mean from an outsiders perspective he just walks or probably drives around and drops mail in people's mailboxes...no big deal. It doesn't take a genius to to that, now does it? If a school cook, custodian or busdriver was lucky enough to work full time, do you think their profession is somehow less valuable than your dad's. Because if you do, it is obvious you have no concept of what these folks do and the responsibilities they have. Perhaps you should have a conversation with your mother about this.

I don't know about how school districts operate where you live, but where I live some administrators clearly get a disproportionate amount of pay and benefits as compared to the rest of the school staff. In fact, there is a huge public outcry because the retiring superintendent in the school district where I live is retiring with a "golden parachute" while the district's revenue has shrunk and they've had to make many program cuts. Here is an article which speaks to how at least some of my neighbors feel about this:

After West Linn-Wilsonville School District Superintendent Roger Woehl ends his decades-long education career in the summer of 2011, taxpayers will hand him a district-funded payout of $70,000; a monthly $500 stipend for four years; health insurance for himself and his wife under Medicare until age 72; and an undisclosed amount from the Oregon Public Employees Retirement System.

With school budgets undergoing more scrutiny from taxpayers, compensation and retirement packages are being questioned more than ever. When the West Linn-Wilsonville School Board this week approved Woehl's final contract, which sets his salary at $132,500, parents zeroed in on a retirement annuity that was bumped up to $30,000. Parents angrily addressed the payment as a "bonus" given during a time of economic turmoil. As published on Oregonlive.com.

"Free stuff," what is that? Where do you live that public employees get free stuff. Where I live the classified and certified school public employees I've known, work for everything they get. They don't get anything for free. However, many of them volunteer their time and money, sometimes on a daily basis to help insure a better education for students. Incidentally, it is against state and federal wage and hour laws to volunteer time at your work place, and yet I know many public employees who do this on a regular basis.  

[tonymctones]

Is you father, the letter carrier making enough money to be considered middle class? Why is that? I mean from an outsiders perspective he just walks or probably drives around and drops mail in people's mailboxes...no big deal. It doesn't take a genius to to that, now does it? If a school cook, custodian or busdriver was lucky enough to work full time, do you think their profession is somehow less valuable than your dad's. Because if you do, it is obvious you have no concept of what these folks do and the responsibilities they have. Perhaps you should have a conversation with your mother about this.

I agree with you on the not taking a genius but its not quite as easy as you make it out to be.

Just depends bro on individual situation, my family is middle class but my mother works full time as well and there are only 2 kids in my family. If my father was the only source of income then no we wouldnt have been middle class if I had more siblings no we wouldnt have been middle class.

My dad works full time and manditory overtime...sorry bro but you dont deserve to be making 40k a year working part time or in the cafeteria as a server.

I agree with the golden parachute for both public and private managers

bro if you think line cooks and bus drivers should be middle class(lets assume that means at least 40k a year to you) then you shouldnt bitch AT ALL about a super intendent making 132k a year...

[Primemuscle]

I agree with you on the not taking a genius but its not quite as easy as you make it out to be.

Just depends bro on individual situation, my family is middle class but my mother works full time as well and there are only 2 kids in my family. If my father was the only source of income then no we wouldnt have been middle class if I had more siblings no we wouldnt have been middle class.

My dad works full time and manditory overtime...sorry bro but you dont deserve to be making 40k a year working part time or in the cafeteria as a server.

I agree with the golden parachute for both public and private managers

bro if you think line cooks and bus drivers should be middle class(lets assume that means at least 40k a year to you) then you shouldnt bitch AT ALL about a super intendent making 132k a year...

I could have misstated something I said to you when it comes to folks being middle class, I don't know. The median average income for a male in the U.S. is just under $40K. There are variances for education levels. I have not researched what public employees who work as school bus drivers make on average nationwide. What I can tell you is that a school bus driver in the school district were I worked makes nowhere near $40K a year. They are paid hourly. Even those lucky few who work 8 hrs a day only work about 180 days a year. When I retired the starting wage for a school bus driver was about $12 an hour. Since all the district employees have been taking wage freezes these past two years, it is safe to assume they aren't making much more than that now. That being the case they are making about $17k a year plus benefits. Benefits are around 25 to 30% of wages. This puts their total compensation at around $22K or a little more than half the median average wage for someone whose position requires approximately the same educational level. Custodians and school bus drivers are on the same salary schedule. However, custodians generally work all year. So their annual wage is higher. Cooks make slightly more than minimum wage to start. They also only work when students are in attendance so they make considerably less than either school bus drivers or custodians.

When I retired there were eight steps on the salary schedule. Steps generally equate to annual increases, but not always. Steps are sometimes frozen in bargaining during hard times like these. So, it could take considerably longer to reach the top salary step. A step is about a 4% increase over the previous step. It is safe to assume a person would make about $18 and hour on the top step. This would put their annual income at about $25K which is still far below that median average income.

Before I retired I was a head custodian. I made around 37K a year. Almost the median average income. I was responsible for a fairly large school building and a small crew of custodians. My position was a full time year round position. When I was called in for security breaches, (often in the middle of the night) I was paid overtime plus mileage. However, when I would check on the building on weekends on my own, I didn't seek to be paid because that was my option. Regardless of whether schools were closed due to weather conditions, I worked because it was part of the job responsibilities. In addition to maintaining all the mechanical aspects of the building, ordering supplies and maintaining equipment, I also had daily cleaning responsibilities. On occasion, I supervised students who were doing in house suspension. I drove kids home who missed their bus. Talked kids who had run from school back to school and whatever else the Principal thought necessary. During my time at that school, it was remodeled several times. I was the on site go to person for these remodels. I often stayed or returned to school to help with evening events eventhough I was not paid for this. I am not boasting because many head custodians do what I did, in fact most classified school employees go that extra mile.

[tonymctones]

I could have misstated something I said to you when it comes to folks being middle class, I don't know. The median average income for a male in the U.S. is just under $40K. There are variances for education levels. I have not researched what public employees who work as school bus drivers make on average nationwide. What I can tell you is that a school bus driver in the school district were I worked makes nowhere near $40K a year. They are paid hourly. Even those lucky few who work 8 hrs a day only work about 180 days a year. When I retired the starting wage for a school bus driver was about $12 an hour. Since all the district employees have been taking wage freezes these past two years, it is safe to assume they aren't making much more than that now. That being the case they are making about $17k a year plus benefits. Benefits are around 25 to 30% of wages. This puts their total compensation at around $22K or a little more than half the median average wage for someone whose position requires approximately the same educational level. Custodians and school bus drivers are on the same salary schedule. However, custodians generally work all year. So their annual wage is higher. Cooks make slightly more than minimum wage to start. They also only work when students are in attendance so they make considerably less than either school bus drivers or custodians.

bro you either need to start splitting up your novel sized posts or make them smaller with the text box bump i cant comment on all your ish with one post...

LMAO and you think that for a person who works part time 22k is a bad living?

be honest with yourself bro these ppl work PART TIME...they dont deserve a salary wtf is wrong with you? yea they only work 180 days a year what do they do for the rest of the year? if they arent working why should we pay them a full years pay for a half years work? FUCKING SERIOUSLY???

sorry bro yuo dont get paid for hours you dont work...salaried ppl generally end up working way more then 40 hours a week...

what rationale do you use to justify paying someone a years worth of pay for a half years worth of work?

[tonymctones]

When I retired there were eight steps on the salary schedule. Steps generally equate to annual increases, but not always. Steps are sometimes frozen in bargaining during hard times like these. So, it could take considerably longer to reach the top salary step. A step is about a 4% increase over the previous step. It is safe to assume a person would make about $18 and hour on the top step. This would put their annual income at about $25K which is still far below that median average income.

Before I retired I was a head custodian. I made around 37K a year. Almost the median average income. I was responsible for a fairly large school building and a small crew of custodians. My position was a full time year round position. When I was called in for security breaches, (often in the middle of the night) I was paid overtime plus mileage. However, when I would check on the building on weekends on my own, I didn't seek to be paid because that was my option. Regardless of whether schools were closed due to weather conditions, I worked because it was part of the job responsibilities. In addition to maintaining all the mechanical aspects of the building, ordering supplies and maintaining equipment, I also had daily cleaning responsibilities. On occasion, I supervised students who were doing in house suspension. I drove kids home who missed their bus. Talked kids who had run from school back to school and whatever else the Principal thought necessary. During my time at that school, it was remodeled several times. I was the on site go to person for these remodels. I often stayed or returned to school to help with evening events eventhough I was not paid for this. I am not boasting because many head custodians do what I did, in fact most classified school employees go that extra mile.

25k for a person who works during the school year is a good living if you ask me...lets see thats 180 days correct so lets say 6 months...that equate to just over 4k a month for the months worked...WTF ARE YOU COMPAINING ABOUT???

sorry bro but 37k seems pretty fair for the work your were doing, along with your cush benefits Id say that was more than satisfactory pay for your position...you got milage and overtime...again wtf are you complaining about???

[tonymctones]

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=369020.0

please go review and respond to this question asked in this thread

[Primemuscle]

25k for a person who works during the school year is a good living if you ask me...lets see thats 180 days correct so lets say 6 months...that equate to just over 4k a month for the months worked...WTF ARE YOU COMPAINING ABOUT???

sorry bro but 37k seems pretty fair for the work your were doing, along with your cush benefits Id say that was more than satisfactory pay for your position...you got milage and overtime...again wtf are you complaining about???

Actually, its nine months. You did go to school didn't you? How many months were you in school each year? Use your math skills and you will see that 180 days is about 3/4's of 260 days which is full time. Most folks get vacation whether in the public or private sector if the hold full time positions. School employees not working full time are not eligible for vacation time. My vacation time after twenty years of employment was four weeks. This means I only worked 240 days. 180 is exactly 3/4's of 240. That's your math lesson for today.

Don't put words in my mouth. Show me where I was ever complaining about my wages and benefits. I made a choice to work in the job that I did. If I had not liked it, I would have left. I previously had a 20 year career in merchandising for a major department store where I made considerably more money then I made working for the school district. I grew tired of the travel and I would have had to move my family back to a major city such as Los Angeles, San Fransisco or New York eventually. I chose a simpler life and I have no regrets or complaints.

Or did you assume only losers take school district jobs in custodial. Well, it's OK, you aren't alone in your misunderstanding. I don't judge you because of your spelling and grammar even though as a school Principal's son you should be ashamed of your careless writing skills.

[tonymctones]

Actually, its nine months. You did go to school didn't you? How many months were you in school each year? Use your math skills and you will see that 180 days is about 3/4's of 260 days which is full time. Most folks get vacation whether in the public or private sector if the hold full time positions. School employees not working full time are not eligible for vacation time. My vacation time after twenty years of employment was four weeks. This means I only worked 240 days. 180 is exactly 3/4's of 240. That's your math lesson for today.

Don't put words in my mouth. Show me where I was ever complaining about my wages and benefits. I made a choice to work in the job that I did. If I had not liked it, I would have left. I previously had a 20 year career in merchandising for a major department store where I made considerably more money then I made working for the school district. I grew tired of the travel and I would have had to move my family back to a major city such as Los Angeles, San Fransisco or New York eventually. I chose a simpler life and I have no regrets or complaints.

Or did you assume only losers take school district jobs in custodial. Well, it's OK, you aren't alone in your misunderstanding. I don't judge you because of your spelling and grammar even though as a school Principal's son you should be ashamed of your careless writing skills.

LOL I assumed in the 180 you included weekends but thats fine well do it over 9 months...that comes out to just over 33k a year if they worked full time.

ILL ASK YOU AGAIN...why do you feel justified and paying someone a full years pay for less than a full years work?

hahah i understand im making you think about shit in a way that goes against your brain washing but dont patronize me man. I have two bachelors and im trying to get into grad school in th fall.

youre so right nobody made you work there...now who is making those ppl who work as bus drivers and cooks work there?

why dont they leave if they dont like it?

[Hereford]

I got a cousin in AZ who is always bitching about making 'only' 45K a year.  Then I bring up how they are only working 9 months a year (less actually) thus equating to 60K/year and they get all pissed off.

Teachers unions have fooled even their own peons into their game.

[Soul Crusher]

I got a cousin in AZ who is always bitching about making 'only' 45K a year.  Then I bring up how they are only working 9 months a year (less actually) thus equating to 60K/year and they get all pissed off.

Teachers unions have fooled even their own peons into their game.

QFT

If you added up the actual time they "work", the probably make the equivalent of $75 - $125 an hour.   

[Primemuscle]

QFT

If you added up the actual time they "work", the probably make the equivalent of $75 - $125 an hour.   

You should become a teacher and see firsthand how much time it takes to do this job before you make outrageous statements about the profession which aren't accurate. Although I was not a teacher, at the school were I worked teachers often put in 12 hr days. They provided classroom supplies out of their own pockets, including bringing in snacks for the kids because some parents are either too lazy or cannot afford to supply them.

[Soul Crusher]

You should become a teacher and see firsthand how much time it takes to do this job before you make outrageous statements about the profession which aren't accurate. Although I was not a teacher, at the school were I worked teachers often put in 12 hr days. They provided classroom supplies out of their own pockets, including bringing in snacks for the kids because some parents are either too lazy or cannot afford to supply them.

I know plenty of "teachers" and as a group I have to say, they are probably one of the least informed grous of people i have ever met. 

My dad, who never went to college, probably reads more books, and is more educated on economics, history, politics, and other issues than any 10 group of current teachers sampling combined.   

I know two women teachers personally, and have to say, i have met females at the car wash check out with more common sense and connection with reality.


You are barking up the wrong tree if you expect me to side with you on teachers.  They are mostly glorified baby sitters at best and need to show results IMHO or be replaced asap.  Shit, even the fry guy at Burger King can probably teach the average teacher a thing or two about common sene and reality.           

[Hereford]

You should become a teacher and see firsthand how much time it takes to do this job before you make outrageous statements about the profession which aren't accurate. Although I was not a teacher, at the school were I worked teachers often put in 12 hr days. They provided classroom supplies out of their own pockets, including bringing in snacks for the kids because some parents are either too lazy or cannot afford to supply them.

LOL!!! Textbook union talking points. Ya, I'm sure the teachers did all this.  Suuuuure a union worker did a 12 hour day. Well, they might have for that time and a half, right?

[Primemuscle]

LOL!!! Textbook union talking points. Ya, I'm sure the teachers did all this.  Suuuuure a union worker did a 12 hour day. Well, they might have for that time and a half, right?

Teachers work in salaried positions, not hourly. There is no time and a half for them. They work whatever hours it takes to get the job done.

[tonymctones]

Teachers work in salaried positions, not hourly. There is no time and a half for them. They work whatever hours it takes to get the job done.

as does everyone else who is salaried...I know a number of teachers and yes some do work more than 40 hours others not so much...

ANSWER THIS QUESTION...what rationale do you use to justify paying someone a years pay for 9 months of work?

[Hereford]

as does everyone else who is salaried...I know a number of teachers and yes some do work more than 40 hours others not so much...

ANSWER THIS QUESTION...what rationale do you use to justify paying someone a years pay for 9 months of work?

bump for an answer to this.