Author Topic: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt  (Read 3175 times)

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2011, 05:25:30 PM »


I'm not confused, you are.  You're confusing the way things are normally handled vs. the way things must be handled.  

Nothing you posted demonstrates that a legislative body must defer to the executive for enforcement.

I gave you the U.S. Capitol Police as an example (which you're still unable to refute).

And I am educating myself - that's why I'm in my 2nd yr for my Master's in Government and why I know you're full of shit.

AGAIN, post ANY proof that a legislative body cannot enforce it's own laws.  


Want a state example  - look at Virginia Capitol Police.  They do not fall under the executive:

Here is their police chief who was appointed by the legislature NOT the governor.


The Virginia State Police issued the following news release:

House of Delegates Speaker William J. Howell (R-Stafford) today announced the appointment of Virginia State Police Captain Kimberly S. Lettner to serve as Chief of Police for the Virginia Capitol Police. Colonel Lettner will assume her new post, effective January 5, 2007.

Lettner was selected for this leadership position by the General Assembly's Legislative Support Commission.
The Chief of Police serves as the Chief Executive Officer of the Division of Capitol Police, which is a legislative agency reporting to the Legislative Support Commission chaired by the Speaker of the House. The seven-member Commission …


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1190673651.html


The US Constitution states in Article 2 Section 3:

- State of the Union, Convening Congress

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States



That states that the executive branch enforces the laws.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2011, 05:27:03 PM »


lol, no Tu, that is not showing the leadership of the Capitol Police, that chart is a partial overview of Congress.  Just like "the media" portion of the chart is not part of the Capitol Police, lol.


Don't worry dude, it's common place on here to not want to simply admit, you don't know.  You're not a student of government, so I probably should not have called you dumb.  For that, I can admit I was wrong.  :D

I didn't say I knew... I said that according to everything anyone states about the executive branch of government that they are the people who enforce the laws... and I've responded with sites and quotes to back that statement up.

So while you may just go ahead and say "you know".

I don't see where you have provided anything more valid than what I have.

Skip8282

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2011, 05:40:35 PM »
I didn't say I knew... I said that according to everything anyone states about the executive branch of government that they are the people who enforce the laws... and I've responded with sites and quotes to back that statement up.

So while you may just go ahead and say "you know".

I don't see where you have provided anything more valid than what I have.


Again, the only thing you've shown is that the executive branch can enforce the laws. 

Your claim is that the legislative branch cannot.  I've provided two examples now where the legislative branch is enforcing the laws.  You've yet to refute either.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2011, 05:45:03 PM »

Again, the only thing you've shown is that the executive branch can enforce the laws.  

Your claim is that the legislative branch cannot.  I've provided two examples now where the legislative branch is enforcing the laws.  You've yet to refute either.


I'm not claiming they can not... I'm claiming that the constitution doesn't give them direct power to do so.

Also, I do not see where the legislative branch is enforcing the laws... They authorize pay for the people doing the enforcement, but from my understanding, the police are not part of any branch of government, they are an agency inside of some municipality or are granted powers by an authority, but are not in any government branch at all.


That said, federal agencies are part of the executive branch including the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.

So,  given my understanding of how things work, I'd say your two examples are not valid... They are appointing people to enforce and are authorizing pay, but they are not in fact enforcing laws and can not go tell someone to enforce a law specifically... Hence why the Wisconsin police are ignoring the Senate's order.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2011, 06:04:23 PM »
Just heard on the news - legislature passed a law and gov signed it. 

Its legit.

Skip8282

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2011, 06:08:19 PM »
I'm not claiming they can not... I'm claiming that the constitution doesn't give them direct power to do so.

Also, I do not see where the legislative branch is enforcing the laws... They authorize pay for the people doing the enforcement, but from my understanding, the police are not part of any branch of government, they are an agency inside of some municipality or are granted powers by an authority, but are not in any government branch at all.


That said, federal agencies are part of the executive branch including the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service.

So,  given my understanding of how things work, I'd say your two examples are not valid... They are appointing people to enforce and are authorizing pay, but they are not in fact enforcing laws and can not go tell someone to enforce a law specifically... Hence why the Wisconsin police are ignoring the Senate's order.


HUH?  WTF?  Seriously?  You've got to be a Strawman gimmick.  They create the laws, they appoint to people enforce the laws, they pay those people, those people are ACTUALLY enforcing the laws, but you're claiming it's not enforcement, lololol.

Oh brother...the lengths people will go to to avoid having to admit they're wrong.

And the Wisconsin police are apples and oranges.  We, or at least I, don't know how they were set up and doubt you do.  If the legislature in Wisconsin established the police and put them under the governor, then anybody can see why they might ignore the Senate.

And that was not your original claim.  If you're changing your claim to constitutional police powers, then it gets into a whole issue of how are police powers defined, etc.  This is your claim:

They have no legal right to "enforce" them.




They have every legal right to enforce them and do.  By all means, go fire a gun on the Capitol rotunda and see if those laws, ENACTED by the LEGISLATURE are not being enforced by people APPOINTED by the LEGISLATURE who ANSWER to the LEGISLATURE and are PAID by the LEGISLATURE.  ::)

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2011, 06:30:17 PM »
Just heard on the news - legislature passed a law and gov signed it. 

Its legit.


333 you're an attorney. You should know this stuff.

What's the deal?

Is skip right?

I don't think he is, but you're an attorney. You'd know.

Can you explain please?

tonymctones

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2011, 06:51:51 PM »
333 you're an attorney. You should know this stuff.

What's the deal?

Is skip right?

I don't think he is, but you're an attorney. You'd know.

Can you explain please?
skip has provided proof that he is right holmes...

what part do you disagree with in the proof that he has shown?

what evidence do you have to believe he is wrong?

what evidence do you have to prove youre right?

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2011, 06:55:08 PM »
skip has provided proof that he is right holmes...

what part do you disagree with in the proof that he has shown?

what evidence do you have to believe he is wrong?

what evidence do you have to prove youre right?

I have shown equally as much proof in my opinion.

That's all.

Skip8282

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2011, 07:08:35 PM »
I have shown equally as much proof in my opinion.

That's all.


You haven't shown any proof to support your claim.  The only thing you've proved is the executive can enforce the law - and that's not even up for contention.

Your claim is the legislative cannot enforce laws, and I've shown you where they do.  By all means show that they can't.  Don't bob, dodge, and weave and show that the executive can enforce laws - that's a given.  Show where the legislative cannot.

Skip8282

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2011, 07:11:35 PM »
I'll actually be down at the capitol in a couple of weeks.  I'll let all those officers know they're a bunch of facists according to Tu.  :D

Alright, I'm getting dopey this late at night.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2011, 07:28:26 PM »

You haven't shown any proof to support your claim.  The only thing you've proved is the executive can enforce the law - and that's not even up for contention.

Your claim is the legislative cannot enforce laws, and I've shown you where they do.  By all means show that they can't.  Don't bob, dodge, and weave and show that the executive can enforce laws - that's a given.  Show where the legislative cannot.

There is absolutely no article written that specifies that legislative branches have the power to enforce laws.

Show me where there is.

You are stating that because they appropriate Chiefs that they are enforcing laws and my claim is that they do not... No lawyer will agree with you and you know this.

There is no enforcement of law by any legislative branch.

Soul Crusher

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2011, 07:31:14 PM »
The gov is enforcing the law the legislature passed.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2011, 07:31:41 PM »
I'll actually be down at the capitol in a couple of weeks.  I'll let all those officers know they're a bunch of facists according to Tu.  :D

Alright, I'm getting dopey this late at night.

If they follow this illegal order, then yes... they are fascists... feel free to tell them so.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2011, 07:33:38 PM »
The gov is enforcing the law the legislature passed.

What is the law exactly... I'm still reading things and there are a lot of lawyers coming out.

Tell me still 333386, can the legislative branch enforce laws?

Sounds to me that even in this instance they are asking someone else to enforce the laws and they are simply creating the laws... Just as I stated.

They aren't enforcing law at all... They are asking someone else to do so.


tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2011, 07:39:14 PM »
Also, and I'm sure another lawyer can verify this... But aren't congressional power specified?

For instance, they can not simply do something just because it isn't specifically denied... So because they aren't denied the power to enforce law, doesn't give them specific right to do so.

I thought powers were specified.

Here are the powers afforded to congress.

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


I don't see any enforcement of laws there... Are you saying that just because it's not listed, that they can still do it anyway?

That completely defeats the checks and balances of our government and I can't believe you think this is how it is designed.

Where is the lawyer here? We have one... he reads the thread, he's posted on it... What's the verdict?

Soul Crusher

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2011, 07:48:44 PM »
The senate probably has authority to pass rules governing conduct of the senate. 

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2011, 07:51:56 PM »
The senate probably has authority to pass rules governing conduct of the senate. 

Does passing rules equal law enforcement?

Soul Crusher

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2011, 07:56:50 PM »
Don't know - but what if other state employees did the same thing?  What would happen to them? 

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2011, 08:00:22 PM »
Don't know - but what if other state employees did the same thing?  What would happen to them? 

They would and should be fired. Just like these democrats should.

Question though, is there something different between this and abstaining from a vote?

Soul Crusher

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2011, 08:04:09 PM »
Don't know.  Probably no precedent for this type of thing.

tu_holmes

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2011, 08:07:29 PM »
Don't know.  Probably no precedent for this type of thing.

I appreciate your legally knowledgable post regarding this situation.

What do you think regarding the legality of the legislative branch of government actually enforcing law?

MM2K

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2011, 08:15:35 PM »
Unfortunately it only applies if they are IN Wisconsin.  Can't 'arrest' them if they're over the boarder.   It has been reported that some of them have been "spotted" at their homes occasionally.  One of them is a woman who is 8 mos. pregnant.

1500 layoff notices go out tomorrow because of their lack of foresight  ::)


Are you referring to the teacher layoffs that Walker says he will have to pass out if these benefit cuts dont go through? Man, the shit is really going to hit the fan if that happens.
Jan. Jobs: 36,000!!

George Whorewell

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2011, 03:05:48 AM »
I appreciate your legally knowledgable post regarding this situation.

What do you think regarding the legality of the legislative branch of government actually enforcing law?

The executive branch enforces the law because the cops are part of the excecutive branch. However, in this case the legislature isn't really enforcing the law. The Gov wants the cops to do this anyway-- all the legislature did was give him an avenue to take action in an extraordinary situation.

Regardless, keep in mind that the US constitution acts as a minimum ceiling for the political systems of each state. State legislatures only have to act within the margains of the constitution; they must pass laws and do other things that are within the providence of the federal constitution-- but they also may exceed the bounds of the constitution just as long as they do not do less than the constitution requires (for example, in criminal matters a state may have protections for defendants that go beyond Miranda rights or the 6th amendment). In addition to that, someone would have to sue on the state and ( most likely) the federal level after the democratic cowards are arrested and returned. Otherwise there is no case or controversey to speak of  because nothing allegedly unconstitutional would have yet taken place. Bottom line, a case like that could take years to resolve and in the end, how ridiculous are the state senators going to look for suing because they were forced to do their jobs?

MCWAY

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Re: GO GET 'EM!!! Wisconsin Senate OKs arrest of absent Dems for contempt
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2011, 04:56:39 AM »
Just heard on the news - legislature passed a law and gov signed it. 

Its legit.

A Wisconsin judge ruled that the 14 Dem senators are in contempt. That's the teeth behind the Senate's passage of the law to arrest them.

The layoff notices go out TODAY.