Author Topic: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.  (Read 4328 times)

Hugo Chavez

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This is a bit from a really odd book about creating a new world by a baptist minister and published by the American Baptist Publication Society.  I'm interested in what you guys think about his ideas and points he makes.  The second link below is from a news clipping, take a look at what he says there.





I. The Present Industrial Order is Built upon False Principles and Guided by Unchristian Ideals. Its fundamental principles are selfish and immoral. In some relations of life we expect men to be unselfish and generous; in some realms of society we regard life as a service, and we help one another. But in one realm we affirm the law of selfishness and expect men to be self-seeking. In one relation we accept it as a matter of course that men will live and labor for the one end of gain. We should be shocked to find a teacher or preacher or missionary who chose his line of work for the sake of income and riches. But we expect a man to engage in business for this one end only. We do not expect men to be unselfish in their commercial life. We are flatly told, in fact, that to take away the hope of large money gains from men is to cut the nerve of effort. It is assumed that selfishness and self-interest must be the fundamental principles of economic action. However it may be in other realms of life, whatever principles may prevail there, it is assumed that men in the economic world are getting all they can for themselves and are giving as little as necessary to others; "men are free to do one another to the death, provided only the arena be a market and the instrument a bargain."

Now the' principles of self-interest and competition by the nature of the case are principles of confusion and division. The methods of competition and self-seeking are causes of friction and warfare. Such principles and methods foredoom the industrial world to be a scene of anarchy and strife. They allow economic injustice to thrive; they give scope to the reign of tyranny in society; they sanction and justify the predatory and selfish interests in men. It is impossible for men to be brotherly in an economic order built on selfishness and competition. The goodly fellowship of the apostles could not operate the present industrial system and make its working either just or peaceful.

Our duty is therefore clear: all who believe in Human Brotherhood and the Golden Rule are called to repudiate the false principles of our economic life and to honor the true principles of human association. They are called to change the economic order and make it possible for one to be a Christian. They are to create a social order that will set a premium upon cooperation and brotherliness. They must build an industrial system that will induce men to look on one another's good and to take thought for the common welfare. "Competition is put forth as the law of the universe," says Maurice in a letter to Kingsley.1 That is a lie. The time is come for us to declare that it is a lie by word and deed.

http://books.google.com/books?id=780LAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=world+order&hl=en&ei=qtGeTef4LaPi0gGhl7CZBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F60812F6345D147A93C7A8178DD85F4D8185F9

Hugo Chavez

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nobody?

whork25

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Whenever somebody reaches the top economically or politically 9 out of 10 times they have fucked a lot of people over.
So yeah i agree with this somewhat

Freeborn126

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Sounds like he doesn't like capitalism very much. 
Live free or die

whork25

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Capitalism is flawed as is humans but i dont have a better alternative so...

Freeborn126

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I agree, it has its problems but its by far the best system humans have come up with so far.  I'd take capitalism any day over socialism.
Live free or die

Hugo Chavez

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any chistians wanna comment?

loco

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Liberation theology[1]  is a Christian movement in political theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in terms of a liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions. It has been described by proponents as "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor",[2]  and by detractors as Christianized Marxism.[3]

Although liberation theology has grown into an international and inter-denominational movement, it began as a movement within the Roman Catholic church in Latin America in the 1950s–1960s. Liberation theology arose principally as a moral reaction to the poverty caused by social injustice in that region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

1. In the mass media, 'Liberation Theology' can sometimes be used loosely, to refer to a wide variety of activist Christian thought. In this article the term will be used in the narrow sense outlined here.

2. Berryman, Phillip, Liberation Theology: essential facts about the revolutionary movement in Latin America and beyond(1987)

3. "[David] Horowitz first describes liberation theology as 'a form of Marxised Christianity,' which has validity despite the awkward phrasing, but then he calls it a form of 'Marxist–Leninist ideology,' which is simply not true for most liberation theology..." Robert Shaffer, "Acceptable Bounds of Academic Discourse," Organization of American Historians Newsletter 35, November, 2007. URL retrieved 12 July 2010.

Hugo Chavez

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Liberation theology[1]  is a Christian movement in political theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in terms of a liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions. It has been described by proponents as "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor",[2]  and by detractors as Christianized Marxism.[3]

Although liberation theology has grown into an international and inter-denominational movement, it began as a movement within the Roman Catholic church in Latin America in the 1950s–1960s. Liberation theology arose principally as a moral reaction to the poverty caused by social injustice in that region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

1. In the mass media, 'Liberation Theology' can sometimes be used loosely, to refer to a wide variety of activist Christian thought. In this article the term will be used in the narrow sense outlined here.

2. Berryman, Phillip, Liberation Theology: essential facts about the revolutionary movement in Latin America and beyond(1987)

3. "[David] Horowitz first describes liberation theology as 'a form of Marxised Christianity,' which has validity despite the awkward phrasing, but then he calls it a form of 'Marxist–Leninist ideology,' which is simply not true for most liberation theology..." Robert Shaffer, "Acceptable Bounds of Academic Discourse," Organization of American Historians Newsletter 35, November, 2007. URL retrieved 12 July 2010.

thanks loco.  I din't know it had a name but catholics are pretty known for this and have been assasinated over it.  These baptists that i've posted and am reading about now were in America and Britian and saying this stuff 50 to 70 years before the movement started with Roman Catholics.  I hadn't known that before today.

as a christian, what's your opinion on what the guy I posted above is saying?  Is he wrong?  If so why?

This is interesting shit lol, just wanted some opinions from christians.

Hugo Chavez

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it's also interesting that the peace movement and one world government movements were really pretty big back then and it was primarily made up of serious christians.  Compared to today in America, it's strange to be reading several sermons from ministers that preach the idea of world government over national sovereignty right here in America lol...  Doubt it happens today.  But according to them back then, one world government is what jesus wants lol...

loco

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2011, 07:46:48 AM »
thanks loco.  I din't know it had a name but catholics are pretty known for this and have been assasinated over it.  These baptists that i've posted and am reading about now were in America and Britian and saying this stuff 50 to 70 years before the movement started with Roman Catholics.  I hadn't known that before today.

as a christian, what's your opinion on what the guy I posted above is saying?  Is he wrong?  If so why?

This is interesting shit lol, just wanted some opinions from christians.

You are welcome!  I too have heard Baptist preachers in my life time, mainly in Latin America, subscribe to this Marxist theology.  I do not subscribe to it.  Jesus and early Christians make it clear in the Bible that the poor will always be around, that we are responsible to work for our own food, that those who don't want to work should then not eat, that we must help the poor voluntarily.

loco

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 07:49:13 AM »
it's also interesting that the peace movement and one world government movements were really pretty big back then and it was primarily made up of serious christians.  Compared to today in America, it's strange to be reading several sermons from ministers that preach the idea of world government over national sovereignty right here in America lol...  Doubt it happens today.  But according to them back then, one world government is what jesus wants lol...

When Christians speak of a one world government, we are speaking of a one world government under the Anti-Christ which will come first, and then of a one world government under Jesus Christ which will come later to stay for ever.  This is interpreted from the Bible.   

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 08:01:43 AM »
When Christians speak of a one world government, we are speaking of a one world government under the Anti-Christ which will come first, and then of a one world government under Jesus Christ which will come later to stay for ever.  This is interpreted from the Bible.   
today that's true, several of these guys back then actually wanted to see a real one world goverment were America was just a state under a global gov.  I'm not kidding.  The stuff I'm reading from several of these ministers and preachers directly lays out the need for it and how they think it should be done.  I just got done reading a critisicm of some christians by other christians for believing they should just wait for Jesus to pick the time while they believed the task was theirs to do.  They even go into ideas for a world constitution and everything.

MCWAY

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 08:06:57 AM »
Liberation theology[1]  is a Christian movement in political theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in terms of a liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions. It has been described by proponents as "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor",[2]  and by detractors as Christianized Marxism.[3]

Although liberation theology has grown into an international and inter-denominational movement, it began as a movement within the Roman Catholic church in Latin America in the 1950s–1960s. Liberation theology arose principally as a moral reaction to the poverty caused by social injustice in that region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

1. In the mass media, 'Liberation Theology' can sometimes be used loosely, to refer to a wide variety of activist Christian thought. In this article the term will be used in the narrow sense outlined here.

2. Berryman, Phillip, Liberation Theology: essential facts about the revolutionary movement in Latin America and beyond(1987)

3. "[David] Horowitz first describes liberation theology as 'a form of Marxised Christianity,' which has validity despite the awkward phrasing, but then he calls it a form of 'Marxist–Leninist ideology,' which is simply not true for most liberation theology..." Robert Shaffer, "Acceptable Bounds of Academic Discourse," Organization of American Historians Newsletter 35, November, 2007. URL retrieved 12 July 2010.

Liberation theology is as unChristian as you can get, in my view. And, it's for one simple reason. It's a blatant violation of the 10th commandment, You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

That's exactly what the lefties, who subscribe to this foolishness, do. They covet those who have more wealth (even if their neighbors have earned their prosperity the old-fashioned way); they covet their houses, cars, bank accounts, their kids being in better schools (public or private), etc. They believe they're entitled to your earnings, simply because they have a pulse. Nowhere is such a concept mandated in Scripture.

And, nowhere does the Bible dismiss or object to what we call capitalism. It simply advocates fair business practices, like Lev. 19:36-37

'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt.  

When it comes to helping the poor and less fortunate, Scripture gives plenty of examples of how to do that. But, the thing is ALL of those are predicated on the poor and less fortunate actually putting forth effort and WORKING.

For example, check Deut. 24:19-21

When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.  

When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.  

When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.


The "redeemer" clause also helped childless widows, by insuring they weren't left in the cold. A woman who lost her husband but had no children was to marry her late husband's brother (or the closes unmarried male relative) and have a son that was recognized as that of the deceased. This way the husband's name would not be blotted from the land and the wife had someone to care for her.

And, to keep women from being screwed over by greedy male family members, the oldest daughter inherited her father's estate, if the father had no sons. But, she had to marry within the father's tribe or super-extended family.



loco

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 08:13:51 AM »
Liberation theology is as unChristian as you can get, in my view. And, it's for one simple reason. It's a blatant violation of the 10th commandment, You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

That's exactly what the lefties, who subscribe to this foolishness, do. They covet those who have more wealth (even if their neighbors have earned their prosperity the old-fashioned way); they covet their houses, cars, bank accounts, their kids being in better schools (public or private), etc. They believe they're entitled to your earnings, simply because they have a pulse. Nowhere is such a concept mandated in Scripture.

And, nowhere does the Bible dismiss or object to what we call capitalism. It simply advocates fair business practices, like Lev. 19:36-37

'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt.  

When it comes to helping the poor and less fortunate, Scripture gives plenty of examples of how to do that. But, the thing is ALL of those are predicated on the poor and less fortunate actually putting forth effort and WORKING.

For example, check Deut. 24:19-21

When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.  

When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.  

When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.


The "redeemer" clause also helped childless widows, by insuring they weren't left in the cold. A woman who lost her husband but had no children was to marry her late husband's brother (or the closes unmarried male relative) and have a son that was recognized as that of the deceased. This way the husband's name would not be blotted from the land and the wife had someone to care for her.

And, to keep women from being screwed over by greedy male family members, the oldest daughter inherited her father's estate, if the father had no sons. But, she had to marry within the father's tribe or super-extended family.




Good post!  I agree!  And about the scripture below concerning helping the poor, it is interesting that God doesn't tell the Jews to reap all of the harvest and give some to the poor.  God instead tells them to leave some behind for the poor to harvest for themselves.  The poor still have to work for it.

Deut. 24:19-21

When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 

When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow. 

When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.

loco

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 08:15:14 AM »
today that's true, several of these guys back then actually wanted to see a real one world goverment were America was just a state under a global gov.  I'm not kidding.  The stuff I'm reading from several of these ministers and preachers directly lays out the need for it and how they think it should be done.  I just got done reading a critisicm of some christians by other christians for believing they should just wait for Jesus to pick the time while they believed the task was theirs to do.  They even go into ideas for a world constitution and everything.

Had not read or heard of this.  Sounds crazy!

Kazan

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 08:17:05 AM »
Good post!  I agree!  And about the scripture below concerning helping the poor, it is interesting that God doesn't tell the Jews to reap all of the harvest and give some to the poor.  God instead tells them to leave some behind for the poor to harvest for themselves.  The poor still have to work for it.

Deut. 24:19-21

When you reap your harvest in your field and have forgotten a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 

When you beat your olive tree, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow. 

When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not go over it again; it shall be for the alien, for the orphan, and for the widow.


And this is a good example of why our society is turning to shit, the poor don't have to work for "it", the government check just shows up
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 08:21:33 AM »
Liberation theology is as unChristian as you can get, in my view. And, it's for one simple reason. It's a blatant violation of the 10th commandment, You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

That's basically what this baptist minister says capitalists ARE guilty of.   

Interesting topic, I really never new there was a christian movement like this in America, especially back then.

MCWAY

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 08:36:21 AM »
That's basically what this baptist minister says capitalists ARE guilty of.  

Interesting topic, I really never new there was a christian movement like this in America, especially back then.

Capitalists do what they do out of ambition, not jealousy or covetousness. I had a friend who owned a house with a pool. I lived in a small apartment in the ghetto.

I didn't get jealous or think it wasn't fair that he had a nice home and I didn't. I didn't think I was entitled to a house or that he had to share his house and pool with me, simply because l exist. Nor, was I willing or did I justify breaking any of the other commandments (i.e. Thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor) to get what he had.


I finished school, worked hard, and (with the help of my wife) I have a nice house with a pool (and a jacuzzi, too).

A sermon I heard years ago stated that the 10th commandment was the most critical of them all. Violating it often causes people to break the other 9.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 09:59:45 AM »
Seriously lol, you guys gotta check this out.  My jaw is hitting the floor reading this shit.

This was published in The Pacific, Volume 58, Issues 1-26 Congregational Churches in California. Northern California Congregational Conference.

PROGRESS AND PROPHECY AT LAKE MOHONK.
A Sketch of the Fourteenth Arbitration Conference.

"When, thirteen years ago, Mr. Albert Smiley founded the International Arbitration Conference at Lake Mohonk. the peaceful enthusiasts that met on that beautiful mount of vision dared anticipate nothing beyond the adoption, some day, of arbitration treaties, nation with nation; and yet every one looked upon them as visionaries.

This year, three hundred of the leading men in the nation have spent three days in conference on the subject, and the uppermost topic has been congratulation upon achieve...

The personnel of the conference was brilliant, as it always is. Think of a conference whose chronicler must pass with the merest mention such speakers as Admiral Chadwick, General (ex-governor) Manderson, of Nebraska, Ex-governor McLane, of New Hampshire, President Rush Rhees, of Rochester University, General Horatio C. King, Prof. John B. Clark, of Columbia, President Warfield, of Lafayette College, Editors Rollo Ogden, of the New York Evening Post, and Hamilton Holt, of The Independent, Dr. Rowley, Dr. MacArthur, and John R. Mott! The programme Committee, at their wits end, had to stop with enough speakers unheard to equip a dozen other conferences.

The platform rehearsed the many encouragements of the past year, and called for further advance along the lines upon which the natjons have already progressed so ..appily. Presented by Chief Justice Stiness, of Rhode Island, it was moved jn a masterly and eminently Christian speech by Justice Brewer, of the Supreme Court of the United States, seconded by Chief Justice Moore, of Michigan.

Justjce Brewer declared that he always returns from Mohonk fired with new zeal for the great cause of international arbitration and the establishment of a world government, and with new determination to do what he can to bring about that great result. This has been the case for thirteen years with all whom Mr. Smiley's statemanlike planning has Drought together in uiese annual conferences. Now that so much has been accompl;hsed, I am sure that the purpose of these Mohonk enthusiasts will not flag, but will go on from one gain to another, till the lirmly based congress of nations shall substitute for the cost and threat of war the assurance of law and the prosperity of peace."


So I looked up the kind of stuff they were talking about to make sure I understand what they mean by world government, here's from one of their conferences:

"Disarmament, or any considerable reduction in fighting establishments it would seem, can proceed only so fast and so far as world-government is substituted for independent national government. For, so long as one nation may, openly or covertly, strike at another, adequate preparation for self-defense will be necessary. Yet, in the name of humanity, justice, religion and material progress, let us have this international court and congress, this responsible, authoritative, and recognized worldgovernment!...

...many of the more prominent European statesmen were under a spell of scepticism, particularly as regards the project of a permanent Congress of Nations, which involved, as they,said, a surrender of sovereignty. The old story! It was pointed out by us that no surrender of authority could ever be made for a nobler cause; that it was to be made not for peace alone, but also for justice, and that each human being must surrender natural rights for the boon of living in a community of individuals, hence governments should be willing to do the same for the boon of living in a community of nations."


And what amazes me, this wasn't just a bunch of loosers talking about this stuff, the attendence list is filled withpretty important people.

whork25

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2011, 10:15:25 AM »
You are welcome!  I too have heard Baptist preachers in my life time, mainly in Latin America, subscribe to this Marxist theology.  I do not subscribe to it.  Jesus and early Christians make it clear in the Bible that the poor will always be around, that we are responsible to work for our own food, that those who don't want to work should then not eat, that we must help the poor voluntarily.

Luke 6:20
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."
 ;D

loco

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2011, 10:17:22 AM »
Luke 6:20
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."
 ;D

Your point?

whork25

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2011, 10:20:03 AM »
You are welcome!  I too have heard Baptist preachers in my life time, mainly in Latin America, subscribe to this Marxist theology.  I do not subscribe to it.  Jesus and early Christians make it clear in the Bible that the poor will always be around, that we are responsible to work for our own food, that those who don't want to work should then not eat, that we must help the poor voluntarily.

20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for h he had great possessions. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
 ;D ;D ;D

whork25

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whork25

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Re: Very interesting Christian view on industry, government and democracy.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 10:24:00 AM »
Capitalists do what they do out of ambition, not jealousy or covetousness. I had a friend who owned a house with a pool. I lived in a small apartment in the ghetto.

I didn't get jealous or think it wasn't fair that he had a nice home and I didn't. I didn't think I was entitled to a house or that he had to share his house and pool with me, simply because l exist. Nor, was I willing or did I justify breaking any of the other commandments (i.e. Thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor) to get what he had.


I finished school, worked hard, and (with the help of my wife) I have a nice house with a pool (and a jacuzzi, too).

A sermon I heard years ago stated that the 10th commandment was the most critical of them all. Violating it often causes people to break the other 9.

Good points sir