Author Topic: mike mentzer  (Read 21942 times)

wgtnmuscle1

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mike mentzer
« on: September 15, 2005, 11:21:33 PM »
does any one still follow mike's princeables
and do thy work

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2005, 06:51:32 AM »
I dont have the energy to get into it today but I do follow them to a point, and they work but not for everyone. I dont think 1 set to failure works for to many people but I do think train brief but intense to get results. I never lift for more than an hour before im out of the gym.
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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 08:03:09 AM »
I used Mentzer's approach for three years, pretty much to the letter. I went from ~160 pounds at age 33 to ~190 pounds. I was happy with the results but I got tired of the nervous system fatigue. I have now switched to 2 sets to "almost failure" and it is easier to stay with it.

I think one of the most important aspects of this (and related) training protocols is the increased rest between workouts. I used 3x and 2x per week muscle group training in the past, and experienced little or no muscle gain. When I went to 7-10 days rest, I experienced great improvement.

I also changed my diet to 2 protein shakes per day. That has, I believe, had the greatest single effect. An interesting by product is I get colds and minor illnesses a lot less frequently.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 12:22:52 PM »
Mentzer's trainign philosophy is the Nautilus training philosophy, and the one set to failure is total and complete bullshit. If it worked you would have everyone doing it. People are pragmatic-they use what works.

One set to failure has NEVER worked and the only reason it became popular is b/c Arthur Jones made pie in the sky statements that you could get big and buffed by training only 30 minutes a day-3 times a week. Only one problem, Jones could never back up his wild claims with studies-and that is all they were-wild claims b/c his BS did not work.

Now, I think the Dorian Yates modified version of Mentzer training is a great idea-6-8 total sets to failure, or almost failure. That is a whole different animal though from one set to failure.

The recovery period, in my opinion, is the most important part of being a BBer after the actual trainig.


 I used 3x and 2x per week muscle group training in the past, and experienced little or no muscle gain. When I went to 7-10 days rest, I experienced great improvement.



I agree that at least a weeks rest between workouts for all body parts is needed-this includes calves and ab's.


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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2005, 05:50:50 AM »
Wow, more top gems of wisdome from our own 619.

1 set per body part does not work . . . who'd a thought???

Dorian's 6 to 8 sets is a great idea . . . what gave that away, 6 Sandows?

And at last, bodyparts need a week of rest . . . tell that to Doggcrap trainers.

MORE DOG SHIT FOR DIAMONDS INSIGHT FROM OUR OLDSKOOL GURU.

Big Ron Abston

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2005, 10:11:56 AM »
Here we go again.  A bunch of 90 pound weaklings sitting at their computers trying to post slams against Mike Mentzer while wiping the sand from their eyes.

Bottom line is different approaches work for different people.  Look at how good Mentzer looked- it worked for him and works for some of us.

I think the phrase "shut up and train" applies to many that post bullsh*& here.

Mike

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2005, 11:43:38 AM »
Here we go again.  A bunch of 90 pound weaklings sitting at their computers trying to post slams against Mike Mentzer while wiping the sand from their eyes.

Bottom line is different approaches work for different people.  Look at how good Mentzer looked- it worked for him and works for some of us.

I think the phrase "shut up and train" applies to many that post bullsh*& here.

Mike

Actually it didn't work for Mike, he was a lair about HIT.

Max_Rep who trained woth both Ray and Mike verified that. Mike lied about getting into shape with the one set to failure BS.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2005, 11:54:22 AM »
Actually it didn't work for Mike, he was a lair about HIT.

Max_Rep who trained woth both Ray and Mike verified that. Mike lied about getting into shape with the one set to failure BS.

Sorry 619- I stand corrected and I respect your input. 

I have just read over and over on this board, negative comments on Mike Mentzer.  I guess all I can really comment on is that in his prime, Mike was top notch and I think he deserves a level of respect on this board for that.


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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2005, 12:06:37 PM »
Sorry 619- I stand corrected and I respect your input. 

I have just read over and over on this board, negative comments on Mike Mentzer.  I guess all I can really comment on is that in his prime, Mike was top notch and I think he deserves a level of respect on this board for that.



I think MM had a great physique. The shots of him on Muscle Rock in the Santa Monica mountains are great. Huge with a small waist. I think most people are in MM corner in that he was a top BBer-no doubt about it.

Im not knocking MM at all-but I do disagree with the Nautilus training philosophy-and a lot of that has to do with both Arthur Jones and MM and the statements they make about HIT being the best way to train.

My training philosophy is simple-do what works for you. If HIT works for you stick with it.

I would say I use a modified HIT system-along the lines of Dorian Yates. It works for me.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2005, 12:12:36 PM »
I think MM had a great physique. The shots of him on Muscle Rock in the Santa Monica mountains are great. Huge with a small waist. I think most people are in MM corner in that he was a top BBer-no doubt about it.

Im not knocking MM at all-but I do disagree with the Nautilus training philosophy-and a lot of that has to do with both Arthur Jones and MM and the statements they make about HIT being the best way to train.

My training philosophy is simple-do what works for you. If HIT works for you stick with it.

Gotcha 619- thanks for the explanation.  LIke I said- I respect ya man.  Thanks.

I would say I use a modified HIT system-along the lines of Dorian Yates. It works for me.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 01:11:57 PM »
Actually it didn't work for Mike, he was a lair about HIT.

Max_Rep who trained woth both Ray and Mike verified that. Mike lied about getting into shape with the one set to failure BS.

So according to Max_rep how did he train??? I have a copy of his suppossed program from the 70's which I can post if anyone is interested.  It was largelt giant/super sets with each bodypart worked twice a week.


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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 02:16:27 PM »
So according to Max_rep how did he train??? I have a copy of his suppossed program from the 70's which I can post if anyone is interested.  It was largelt giant/super sets with each bodypart worked twice a week.



If I remember it correctly, it was something like this:

Mentzer would do maybe 2-3 sets of a certain excersise, eg barbell curls, fairly heavy. Then he would do one final set.

After they were done, I think Mentzer would only count the final set as a working set. The other sets were only warm ups or something like that.

But you need to remember that Mentzer didn't fully develop his extreme ideas of training until he himself QUIT. It was only in the end of the 80's/ beginning of the 90's, he really started to get really wild.

My impression is that Mentzer was very influenced by philosophical reason. Herein lies a big explanation as to why he got stuck when he tried to develop a training protocol. From what I gather, he was obsessed with applying the perfect logic reasoning to training. It left no room for science.

If you read Heavy Duty 2, there's a routine called The Consolidation Routine, which consists of the following:

Workout A
One set Squats
One set Close-grip, Palms-Up Pulldowns
rest 5-7 days

Workout B
One set Regular Deadlifts
One set Dips
rest 5-7 days

Repeat

Mentzer never used this routine himself during his competitive days. Or anything resembling it, I guess.

I feel truly sorry for all those who still are buying into the preachings of Mike Mentzer, may he RIP.

He chose to ignore most of the excersise research available. If he had been using his "logical reasoning", he would've seen the obvious, that if the muscle needs shorter time to recover than the CNS, then you should avoid making the CNS having to recover fully after every workout.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 06:17:37 PM »
Here is the routine from the 70's he supposedly used:

Monday and Thursday

Chest:
Pec-Deck (to failure)
Incline Barbell Press
(forced reps)
Cable or Dumbbell Fly

4 cycles with no pause between movements

Triceps:
Triceps Extension (Nautilus)
Weighted Dip

3 cycles of 8 reps to failure with no rest between movements (rest between cycles)

Thighs:
Heavy Leg Extension 1 x 10 reps
Leg Press 1 x 10 reps
Parallel Squat 1 x 10 reps
Leg Curl 1 x 10 reps

Sometimes the above exercises are performed in superset style. He always uses maximum poundages.

Tuesday and Friday

Back:
Pullover (Nautilus)
Close-Grip Chin (underhand)

2 cycles of superset

Long Cable Pull 2 x 8 reps
One Arm Dumbbell Row 2 x 8 reps

Deltoids:
Lateral Raise (Nautilus)
Press Behind Neck (Nautilus)

2 cycles of superset

Biceps:
Preacher Bench Curl
Barbell Curl

superset above for 3 cycles (I have done this, it is awesome)

Concentration Dumbbell Curl

Calves:
Toe Raise (calf machine)
Toe Raise (leg press)

1 set each
Abs:
Leg Raise (chinning bar)
Crunch (machine)

3 supersets until he feels a burn


I have taken the above information from George Snyder and Rick Wayne’s Posedown.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2005, 12:40:55 PM »
Mentzer took what Arthur Jones taught him and applied it to himself.  Heavy Duty is Mentzer's baby and HIT is AJ's.  They are actually very different.  Essentially, all HIT is, is doing the least amount of work possible to create overload for the entire body in the shortest period of time.  I'll be honest, the ONE AND ONLY reason people think HIT is bs and the whole one set to failure thing is bs, is because they are not training anywhere in the realm of the intensity that AJ used with himself and his bodybuilders. 
  I have mentored with Platz, and spoken with a lot of the old timers from AJ's day and they all, to be honest, trained with an intensity that has yet to be duplicated by a pro or even a major amateur in the last decade, imo.  Before I started with Platz, I was pretty much always the hardest training person in whatever gym I went to.  Then I went and did one set of curls with Tom and if I didn't know better, I would have thought I was risking injury.  The same when he was showing me how to squat.  Tom was never a proponent of HIT but he definitely wasn't a volume guy, I am just using him as an example. 
   Kent Keuhn, though, Arnold's old roomie and training partner, was a guy I worked with and personally spoke to about his sessions with Arthur Jones.  He said and I quote "I'd do one set of curls and AJ would push me until I would pass out and my spotter would have to push me back."
   The first time I actually did a HIT session with the intensity of a real Hitter, I realized that one set to negative failure is exactly what I need to stimulate growth.   You may be different, but I doubt there are that many people out there who need more than 1 set to complete momentary negative IIB failure.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2005, 09:15:01 PM »
Swedish Viking-I hate to break the news to you-but you are full of shit.

Arthur Jones was full of shit too. 95+% of the BS he spouted was just that-BS. He would make wild and unfounded claims about his training philosphy that had no factual basis at all-I guess if he thought he would say it enough, in magazine articles and books, that would somehow make it true. Sorry-the world does not work that way. Jones never published a single scientific study-let alone a study that indicasted his one set to failure works. Casey Viator-Jones main test guinnea pig and a gentic freak long before he met Jones-made no substantial improvements using the Nautilus training system.

Nauitilus training was a gimmeck to sell Jones Nautilius equipment, his training books and all the other BS he promoted. If it worked it would have withstood the test of time and prospered. Well, has it? NO! Today almost NO gyms use Nautilus equipment, no trainers promote Nautilus training methods and the books are long gone. It was all BS. A fad. That is how you can tell if something is the real deal or not-if it is real it will stick around.

As for the old timer guys training "with an intensity that has yet to be duplicated by a pro or even a major amateur in the last decade, imo" you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, unless you have trained with all the old timers (which you said you have not) and trained with all the current champs (again, which you have not).

If you think that HIT or Nautilus training works for you-great! But don't come on a BBing board with people who have trained for decades and start telling them what system works best-OK. You are not the PhD of training here, and never will be.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2005, 12:37:53 AM »
I don't know anything about Arthur Jones except knowing who he is.  But I have to disagree with the Nautilus nit in gyms and not doing to well.  Last year they close to 1/2 billion dollars in sales.  They bought out and now own Bowflex, Schwinn and Staitmater.  I am pretty sure you don't buy out pretty succesful companies unless you are doing pretty good.  Nautilus is in I think almost every gym here in Hawaii and definitely in most of the Hotel gyms here.  Sheraton here is exclusively Nautilus and bought as is other hotels.  Some of their equipment is pretty good actually.  Nothing like the old Nautilus stuff.  The condo I had in honolulu had exclusive Nautilus equipment in their 5,000 sq., ft gym.  There are many other allot better companies but Nautilus is defintiely in the top ten if not 8.  All I can say about Arthur Jones is that he has a great last name.  And Winn Paris well what can I say about Win.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2005, 03:27:55 AM »
Quote
Today almost NO gyms use Nautilus equipment, no trainers promote Nautilus training methods and the books are long gone. It was all BS. A fad. That is how you can tell if something is the real deal or not-if it is real it will stick around.

Actually there's plenty of gyms with Nautilus equipment and there's nothing wrong with it, they've got some good machines. How many trainers promote HIT, HST, DC, German Volume Training etc ? Not many, so with your reasoning it's nothing since it's not being promoted and used by everyone nationwide.

Quote
You are not the PhD of training here, and never will be.

And you are? Are you saying that one set, of let's say 20 reps of squats will not make someone bigger and stronger? Or that 1 set of curls will not be enough for biceps, then how many sets are needed? Some claim 0 sets are needed, that's even less than 1, what's your take on that?
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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2005, 06:58:14 AM »
Swedish Viking-I hate to break the news to you-but you are full of shit.

Arthur Jones was full of shit too. 95+% of the BS he spouted was just that-BS. He would make wild and unfounded claims about his training philosphy that had no factual basis at all-I guess if he thought he would say it enough, in magazine articles and books, that would somehow make it true. Sorry-the world does not work that way. Jones never published a single scientific study-let alone a study that indicasted his one set to failure works. Casey Viator-Jones main test guinnea pig and a gentic freak long before he met Jones-made no substantial improvements using the Nautilus training system.

Nauitilus training was a gimmeck to sell Jones Nautilius equipment, his training books and all the other BS he promoted. If it worked it would have withstood the test of time and prospered. Well, has it? NO! Today almost NO gyms use Nautilus equipment, no trainers promote Nautilus training methods and the books are long gone. It was all BS. A fad. That is how you can tell if something is the real deal or not-if it is real it will stick around.

As for the old timer guys training "with an intensity that has yet to be duplicated by a pro or even a major amateur in the last decade, imo" you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, unless you have trained with all the old timers (which you said you have not) and trained with all the current champs (again, which you have not).

If you think that HIT or Nautilus training works for you-great! But don't come on a BBing board with people who have trained for decades and start telling them what system works best-OK. You are not the PhD of training here, and never will be.

 What an incredible over reaction.  Arthur Jones has held more massive conferences and published more studies at major universities and in medical journals than almost anyone in the fitness field.  The can be found almost anywhere.  In addition to that, when he sold Nautilus, he started his new line, Med Ex, which is used in countless hospitals and physical therapy studios around the world, and are sued along with many of his training principles.  The is common, well known, documented info.  And in addition to that many professional football teams still use HIT training and will continue to do so, as their strength coaches further publicize their results(many of which already have been).  I can provide names and sources if you'd like. 

  I simply said that HIT is what works best for myself(go ahead and check) and that I think it would work best for most everyone as well, assuming their workouts were done in a Jonesian fashion rather than their own concotion or a Mentzer like one-not to say you shouldn't always adapt your program to yourself, really just that AJ's intensity was far and above anything that I have ever seen anyone duplicate-including current and past pros.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2005, 12:50:23 PM »
I have no idea where in the world you got the notion that  "Arthur Jones has held more massive conferences and published more studies at major universities and in medical journals than almost anyone in the fitness field", that is absolutely ridicules. Jones has never published a SINGLE scientific paper in a SINGLE scientific journal. Never. Ever. Please let me know of one article- since you claim this.

As far as the HIT/Nautilus training philosophy being used today by pro sports teams, I have not called every single strength coach for every single pro sports team here in the US-so I can't tell you what system they are using. Neither could you. But I do know a few strength and conditions coaches (for the Rams and San Diego State) and they do not use the Nautilus system (one set to failure 3x/week) or anything close to it.

I will say it again, Arthur Jones made WILD and UNFOUNDED claims about his training philosophy that had no basis in fact (as dd M Mentzer). He did this as a gimmick to sell his Nautilus equipment. Nautilus equipment is almost gone from the face of the earth today. That tells you if his bogus claims were the real deal or not.

I will give you two examples of Jones bullshit just off the top of my head;

1- The human skeletal muscle atrophies after 48 hours- so you must workout at least once every 48 hours of lose muscle mass (hence the 1 set to failure 3x/week). It has been scientifically PROVEN skeletal muscle does not show signs of atrophy for 21-30 days. No one today trains a bodypart 3x/week. The majority of BBer's train each bodypart once a week.

2- Do not make faces when training heavy- b/c this takes away muscle intensity. Holy shit-have you EVER heard something so stupid in your entire life. He actually said that! Try doing a 600# squat-or a 500# bench press with a straight face! That is one of the stupidest/dumbest things I have ever heard in my life.

These are just TWO of the hundreds of bogus/false/unfounded/snake oil claims Jones has made regarding his training philosophy-and it does not work. That is why today you no longer see Nautilus in any gyms, they are basically history.

Don't get me wrong though-the Nautilus pullover is one of the marvels of modern gym equipment-so is the double chest machine. But the equipment Jones invented does not make Jones any kind of training expert- by any means. He does not even have a college degree.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2005, 04:15:17 PM »
I have no idea where in the world you got the notion that  "Arthur Jones has held more massive conferences and published more studies at major universities and in medical journals than almost anyone in the fitness field", that is absolutely ridicules. Jones has never published a SINGLE scientific paper in a SINGLE scientific journal. Never. Ever. Please let me know of one article- since you claim this.

As far as the HIT/Nautilus training philosophy being used today by pro sports teams, I have not called every single strength coach for every single pro sports team here in the US-so I can't tell you what system they are using. Neither could you. But I do know a few strength and conditions coaches (for the Rams and San Diego State) and they do not use the Nautilus system (one set to failure 3x/week) or anything close to it.

I will say it again, Arthur Jones made WILD and UNFOUNDED claims about his training philosophy that had no basis in fact (as dd M Mentzer). He did this as a gimmick to sell his Nautilus equipment. Nautilus equipment is almost gone from the face of the earth today. That tells you if his bogus claims were the real deal or not.

I will give you two examples of Jones bullshit just off the top of my head;

1- The human skeletal muscle atrophies after 48 hours- so you must workout at least once every 48 hours of lose muscle mass (hence the 1 set to failure 3x/week). It has been scientifically PROVEN skeletal muscle does not show signs of atrophy for 21-30 days. No one today trains a bodypart 3x/week. The majority of BBer's train each bodypart once a week.

2- Do not make faces when training heavy- b/c this takes away muscle intensity. Holy shit-have you EVER heard something so stupid in your entire life. He actually said that! Try doing a 600# squat-or a 500# bench press with a straight face! That is one of the stupidest/dumbest things I have ever heard in my life.

These are just TWO of the hundreds of bogus/false/unfounded/snake oil claims Jones has made regarding his training philosophy-and it does not work. That is why today you no longer see Nautilus in any gyms, they are basically history.

Don't get me wrong though-the Nautilus pullover is one of the marvels of modern gym equipment-so is the double chest machine. But the equipment Jones invented does not make Jones any kind of training expert- by any means. He does not even have a college degree.



I think the idea of number two was to help in keeping your blood presure in check while training .

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2005, 07:12:39 PM »
Jones never said that was the reason Bix. I think what you are referring to is the "Val Salva" effect. That is when you hold your breath when lifting and pressure is put on your esophagus-which also cuts off blood flow to the brain-and could result in passing out. Yet, most people do hold their breath on heavy lifts (myself included).

I think Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer were really, really smart guys-both of them. But what they were really smart at-especially Jones- is marketing, not training! Jones was the guy that put weight lifting machines on the map. If you don't remember or were not around, in the 1970's- early 80's there were "Nautilus" only gyms. They only had Nautilus equipment and only promoted the Nautilus training methods-and they all went out of business. 24-Hour Fitness started out as 24-Hour Nautilus (they changed the name about 10-15 years ago), but they no longer use only Nautilus equipment or follow the training philosophy.


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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2005, 06:50:33 AM »
Jones never said that was the reason Bix. I think what you are referring to is the "Val Salva" effect. That is when you hold your breath when lifting and pressure is put on your esophagus-which also cuts off blood flow to the brain-and could result in passing out. Yet, most people do hold their breath on heavy lifts (myself included).

I think Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer were really, really smart guys-both of them. But what they were really smart at-especially Jones- is marketing, not training! Jones was the guy that put weight lifting machines on the map. If you don't remember or were not around, in the 1970's- early 80's there were "Nautilus" only gyms. They only had Nautilus equipment and only promoted the Nautilus training methods-and they all went out of business. 24-Hour Fitness started out as 24-Hour Nautilus (they changed the name about 10-15 years ago), but they no longer use only Nautilus equipment or follow the training philosophy.



Val Salva effect . . . thank God for Google or this ass would have nothing to post. Time to change your undergarmets aint it pops.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2005, 12:26:38 PM »
Val Salva effect . . . thank God for Google or this ass would have nothing to post. Time to change your undergarmets aint it pops.

CrunchHomo/Paxil/Xkol/start posting under your real name.....

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2005, 08:04:49 AM »
CrunchHomo/Paxil/Xkol/start posting under your real name.....

Your right pops. I will start posting under Ronnie Abston from now on.

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Re: mike mentzer
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2005, 02:23:10 PM »
Your right pops. I will start posting under Ronnie Abston from now on.

I forgot-Big Ron Abston-one of your other handles....BTW-who is that?