Author Topic: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?  (Read 17479 times)

Dos Equis

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Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« on: June 20, 2011, 11:28:15 AM »
Interesting issue.

Judges split on ruling on parental discipline

The state high court orders a new trial for a man convicted of assault
By Ken Kobayashi
POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jun 20, 2011

A Honolulu man convicted of slugging his 14-year-old stepson in the face and breaking his nose should have been allowed to raise the defense that he was disciplining the teenager, a divided Hawaii Supreme Court ruled this month.

PARENTAL DISCIPLINE DEFENSE
Under state law, parents or guardians are justified in using force against their children. The force must be:
>> “Employed with due regard for the age and size of the minor.”
>> “Reasonably related to the purpose of safeguarding or promoting the welfare of the minor, including the prevention or punishment of the minor’s misconduct.”
>> “Not designed to cause or known to create a risk of causing substantial bodily injury, disfigurement, extreme pain or mental distress or neurological damage.”
Source: Hawaii Revised Statutes

The 3-2 decision set aside the assault conviction against Cedric Kikuta and ordered a new trial because the trial judge refused to permit the jury to consider the parental discipline defense.

The majority held that the seriousness of the injuries alone do not preclude the defense. It should be left to a jury to determine whether the parent was justified in using force, the ruling said.

In dissent, the two justices said at a certain point, the use of force, such as shooting a child, is so unreasonable that the defense should be excluded. Kikuta's actions, the two said, went beyond that point.

The decision is the latest in a series dealing with the controversial issue that has split the courts here on the extent parents can use force to discipline their children.

It addresses for the first time whether the parental discipline defense can apply to a child who suffers "substantial bodily injury."

Summer Kupau, Kikuta's deputy public defender, said they were pleased with the ruling. She called the decision "fair" in upholding parents' rights to the defense and their right to discipline their children.

Loren Thomas, city deputy prosecutor in charge of the prosecutor office's appeals section, said they were disappointed. She said they agree with the dissent.

"But this is the decision of the majority and we must abide by it and it's our intention to retry the defendant," Thomas said.

Previous high court cases dealt with misdemeanor child abuses, but Kikuta's stepson suffered a fractured nose, considered a "substantial bodily injury."

Kikuta, 46, was charged with second-degree assault, which is punishable by up to five years in prison.

During the trial, Circuit Judge Rhonda Nishimura turned down a defense request to have the jury consider the parental discipline defense because the youth suffered "substantial bodily injury."

The altercation on the morning of Sept. 30, 2007, involved the father wanting the youth to clean a carpet stain caused by a dog.

Kikuta, who was in a leg cast up to his hip because of a recent surgery, testified that the youth grabbed one of Kikuta's crutches and swung it at him. Kikuta said he blocked the swing and hit the youth twice but was not aiming at his face.

The youth, 14 at the time, testified he didn't swing the crutch. He said he was punched about five times in the face. He testified that after he fell to his knees, Kikuta punched him on the back of the head two or three times.

At the time, the youth was 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet tall and weighed about 160 pounds, according to the court record. Kikuta was 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed as much as 190 pounds.

The jury returned a guilty verdict on the lesser offense of misdemeanor or third-degree assault. Kikuta was sentenced to two months in jail and one year of probation.

The sentence was postponed pending the appeal.

The case also split the Intermediate Court of Appeals, which ordered a new trial by a 2-1 vote because the parental discipline defense was excluded.

The prosecution asked for the high court review.

In the 50-page high court majority decision, Associate Justice Simeon Acoba emphasized they were not condoning illegal force against minors and noted the subjective nature of the issue: What one parent considers discipline may be abuse to another.

But Acoba said a defendant is entitled to have a jury consider a defense no matter how weak the evidence might be to support it.

He focused on the parental discipline law that says the defense is excluded if the force is "designed to cause or known to create a risk of causing substantial bodily injury."

"The statute does not preclude the defense on the ground that the force resulted in substantial bodily injury," he said.

Rather, the "nature of the force" is the key as to whether the defense applies, and the matter should be left to the jury, he said.

Joining him in the opinion were Associate Justice Jim Duffy and Michael Wilson, a substitute associate justice, who also wrote his own concurring opinion.

Associate Justice Paula Nakayama was joined in dissent by Chief Justice Mark Recktenwald.

Nakayama's 13-page opinion cited three previous Hawaii appeals courts' rulings that found the use of force to fall outside parental discipline.

The decisions involved hitting a minor in the face and striking her with a plastic bat until it broke; kicking a girl in the shin, slapping her and punching her in the face; and punching a minor five times and kicking him.

"Likewise, this court has not approved the use of a minimum of two punches to a minor's face resulting in a broken nose and chipped teeth for parental discipline," Nakayama said.

She said "Kikuta's use of force therefore was not moderate or ‘reasonably related' to the (stepson's) welfare."

The trial judge, she said, properly excluded the defense.

Previous cases

A snapshot of past court rulings on whether the use of force was discipline or the crime of abuse: >> A boyfriend of the mother of a 17-year-old boy kicked and slapped the teen when he failed to correctly grate cheese for tacos. DISCIPLINE.

>> A mother hit her 14-year-old daughter with a backpack, a plastic hanger, a small brush and a tool’s plastic handle. The girl was doing poorly in school and was hanging out with friends instead of attending tutoring. DISCIPLINE.

>> A boyfriend of the mother of a 14-year-old girl hit the teen on both sides of her face, knocked her to the ground, threw her on a bed, pulled off her pants and underwear, hit her buttocks and hit her with a plastic baseball bat until it broke. The girl had falsified a school report of her grades and attendance. ABUSE.

>> A father kicked his 14-year-old daughter in the shin, slapped her face five to 10 times, stomped on her face and pulled her ears. The girl had run away with her boyfriend the day she was to take a pregnancy test. She was beaten after she didn’t respond when confronted about her relationship with the boyfriend. ABUSE.

>> A father hit his 17-year-old daughter above the knees with a belt and cut her waist-long hair. The girl’s friends were at the home after he warned her not to have them over. DISCIPLINE.

>> A father slapped his daughter in the face, repeatedly punched her in the shoulders and slapped her again. The girl had used profanity. DISCIPLINE.

>> An uncle hit his 11-year-old nephew five times, kicked him and pulled him by the ear and hair. The boy was angry at his uncle and left him when they were stopped at a gas station. ABUSE.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110620__Judges_split_on_ruling_on_parental_discipline.html

Agnostic007

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 11:56:46 AM »
If I read it correctly, it is not saying the force wasn't unreasonable, just that the jury needs to have the opportunity to consider the parental discipline exception. Once they consider it, they can put it aside or apply it whichever the facts indicate.

I don't have a huge problem with that. In general jurys will have no problem cutting through the BS and delivering the right verdict if the defense doesn't fit.


Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 12:09:01 PM »
If I read it correctly, it is not saying the force wasn't unreasonable, just that the jury needs to have the opportunity to consider the parental discipline exception. Once they consider it, they can put it aside or apply it whichever the facts indicate.

I don't have a huge problem with that. In general jurys will have no problem cutting through the BS and delivering the right verdict if the defense doesn't fit.



That's the way I read the article too.  But the bigger question/issue is whether the government should be prosecuting parents who discipline their kids, and how you distinguish discipline from abuse.

Jadeveon Clowney

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 12:10:43 PM »
If I had a step-parent/mother's bf who laid into me like some of these cats, I would beat the shit out of them as soon I was able.  :)

Agnostic007

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 01:24:48 PM »
That's the way I read the article too.  But the bigger question/issue is whether the government should be prosecuting parents who discipline their kids, and how you distinguish discipline from abuse.

"You'll know it when you see it" is the best answer I have.... I've been to a LOT of situations like this. It can be subjective, strike that..it IS subjective. But it's what we have when dealing with humans. Usually a belt across the buttocks or hamstrings is considered acceptable.. a belt across the face is not. A slap in the face is acceptable, putting out a cigarette on their face is not. But.. a belt across the face can be acceptable if Lil Johnny moved as the belt was coming in for a legal hit... and witnesses back up the story. etc etc.

Then you have defensive hits. Little Johnny comes at Step dad and takes a swing. Step dad pops Lil Johnny one time in the face...acceptable. Beats him unconscious, unacceptable..

It's really kind of been "You'll know it when you see it".....

 

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 01:32:42 PM »
"You'll know it when you see it" is the best answer I have.... I've been to a LOT of situations like this. It can be subjective, strike that..it IS subjective. But it's what we have when dealing with humans. Usually a belt across the buttocks or hamstrings is considered acceptable.. a belt across the face is not. A slap in the face is acceptable, putting out a cigarette on their face is not. But.. a belt across the face can be acceptable if Lil Johnny moved as the belt was coming in for a legal hit... and witnesses back up the story. etc etc.

Then you have defensive hits. Little Johnny comes at Step dad and takes a swing. Step dad pops Lil Johnny one time in the face...acceptable. Beats him unconscious, unacceptable..

It's really kind of been "You'll know it when you see it".....

 

I agree with this. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »
 :o

Texas Mom Gets Probation, Loses Kids, for Spanking her Daughter
By Kevin Boie MYFOXDFW.COM
Published June 21, 2011
Fox News Latino

CORPUS CHRISTI, Texas –  A Texas mom has been sentenced to probation and has lost custody of her children for spanking her daughter.

Rosalina Gonzáles of Corpus Christi pleaded guilty on Wednesday to Injury to a Child for swatting the 2-year-old on her buttocks.

According to prosecutors, Gonzáles in December hit the girl with an open hand, leaving some red marks.

Police arrested Gonzáles after the child's grandmother reported the injuries and took the child to a hospital.

Gonzáles will serve five years probation, take parenting classes and follow guidelines laid out by Child Protective Services

KZTV10.com reports that the ruling judge in the case made it clear that spanking is a crime.

"You don't spank children today," Judge Jose Longoria is quoted as having said. "In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don't spank children."

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2011/06/21/texas-mom-gets-probation-for-spanking-her-daughter/

OzmO

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 04:24:50 PM »
 ::)

We are a nation of south parks.

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 04:47:02 PM »
lol!   spare the rod...

tonymctones

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2011, 08:45:51 PM »
LOL that same judge is probably staunchly pro choice...::)

Roger Bacon

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2011, 09:37:36 PM »
If I had a step-parent/mother's bf who laid into me like some of these cats, I would beat the shit out of them as soon I was able.  :)

Exactly, if a step parent ever touched my child I'd murder them.

Agnostic007

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 07:14:34 AM »
Some judges have no business being judges..

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2011, 10:50:29 AM »
Now this is abuse . . . .

Woman arrested for allegedly hitting son with a shovel for not doing chores
By Star-Advertiser staff
POSTED: 03:02 a.m. HST, Jul 12, 2011

Police have arrested a 42-year-old Makakilo woman who allegedly assaulted her 15-year-old son with a shovel because he didn't do his chores.

The alleged assault occurred at 8 a.m. Monday. Police arrested the woman at 9:20 a.m. on suspicion of second-degree assault and was issued a 24-hour abuse warning.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/125395188.html

OzmO

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2011, 04:36:31 PM »
Lol. I am sure the woman felt justified at the moment. Hahaha

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 06:49:49 PM »
Lol. I am sure the woman felt justified at the moment. Hahaha

Yeah.  She lost her mind for a minute.   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 10:40:14 AM »
Tough question.  I think you can make the argument in some instances that extreme cases of childhood obesity are a form of parental abuse or neglect, but could be difficult to draw lines. 

But I do think a 400 pound 12-year-old girl is just criminal. 

Should Parents Lose Custody of Extremely Obese Kids?
By MIKAELA CONLEY
July 13, 2011

Parents, in some cases, should lose custody of their severely obese children, argued Dr. David Ludwig, an obesity expert at Children's Hospital Boston, in an opinion piece that ran in the Journal of the American Medical Association Wednesday.

"State intervention may serve the best interests of many children with life-threatening obesity, comprising the only realistic way to control harmful behaviors," Ludwig said in the editorial, which he co-wrote with Lindsey Murtagh, a lawyer and researcher at Harvard's School of Public Health.

"In severe instances of childhood obesity, removal from the home may be justifiable, from a legal standpoint because of imminent health risks and the parents' chronic failure to address medical problems," the authors wrote

The editorial has, unsurprisingly, set off an explosive debate, but it took care to point out that removal from the home was not necessarily the solution for all obese children and should be considered only as a last option in the most extreme of cases.

As an example, the authors cited the case of a 90-pound, 3-year-old girl who came to Ludwig's clinic several years ago. By age 12, she weighed 400 pounds and had developed diabetes, cholesterol problems, high blood pressure and sleep apnea.

Ludwig and Murtagh wrote that state intervention may have been an appropriate response here.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, approximately 17 percent, or 12.5 million, children and teens are obese. Since 1980, these obesity rates have tripled.

"State intervention would clearly not be desirable or practical, and probably not be legally justifiable, for most of the approximately 2 million children in the United States with a BMI at or beyond the 99th percentile," Ludwig and Murtagh state.

But for kids like Ludwig's 400-pound, 12-year-old patient, or those who have developed life-threatening conditions such as type 2 diabetes, and breathing and liver problems that could kill before the age of 30, temporary foster care may be an appropriate solution, said the authors.

"Initially reading media reports, this sounds like a horror story, where the government would be kicking down doors and taking kids from their homes, but that's not what he's saying," said James Zervios, communications director at the Obesity Action Coalition.

"When a child is being put in harm's way, he may benefit from some type of intervention to teach the child and parents how to exercise and eat healthy," said Zervios. "There's no blanket approach to this situation."

Therapy and education programs should be a first line of offense in treating obese children, Zervios said. But when a parent repeatedly ignores advice and guidance for the child's well-being, government intervention may be an appropriate next step.

"If we give government the option of removing obese children from the home, we know from our experience with child abuse and neglect cases that many child protective service agencies will be too quick to place overweight children in foster care," said Dr. David Orentlicher, co-director of Hall Center for Law and Health at Indiana University of School Law, who disagreed with the idea of state intervention.

"Sometimes it is easier to take a child out of the home than take the time and resources to provide the right solution to the problem."

While Dr. David Katz, founder of the Yale Prevention Center, praised Ludwig as a physician, and found the editorial to be balanced and reasonable, he said there was not enough evidence that the state would do a better job of feeding children than their parents.

"There is no doubt that, whereas starving a child Is an obvious example of abuse, in an age of epidemic childhood obesity, it may be time to look at willful overfeeding in a similar light," said Katz.
Sugar and Weight Gain Watch Video
This Week on 'GMA': Childhood Obesity Watch Video
Michelle: Childhood Obesity 'Keeps Me Up At Night' Watch Video

But without having evidence that foster care would benefit a morbidly obese child more than his original caregivers and without knowing cost and benefit tradeoffs when the state takes children from their parents, it's too early to say whether this is an appropriate response, said Katz.

"I do believe that severe obesity in a child is a serious problem," Katz said. "The best approach to it is to prevent it rather than fix it. But when we need to fix it, for now, the state should identify the problem and offer solutions, but not impose them."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/parents-lose-custody-obesity-children/story?id=14062898

Agnostic007

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 10:45:10 AM »
If enacted, I can see myself on my cell phone at least once a week at the local H.E.B. grocery store near the frozen dessert section calling in a mom who has her 10 yr old 200 lbs daughter waddling with her picking out gallon buckets of generic ice cream

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 10:46:23 AM »
If enacted, I can see myself on my cell phone at least once a week at the local H.E.B. grocery store near the frozen dessert section calling in a mom who has her 10 yr old 200 lbs daughter waddling with her picking out gallon buckets of generic ice cream

lol

kcballer

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 10:53:46 AM »
Breaking a bone = abuse. 
Abandon every hope...

Agnostic007

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 10:59:24 AM »
Breaking a bone = abuse. 

yes, obviously

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 01:53:59 PM »
Is this discipline or abuse? 



Texas Judge Caught on Video Beating Daughter 'Needs Help'
Published November 03, 2011
Associated Press

This undated image provided by the Aransas County, Texas Court-at-Law webpage shows Aransas County Judge William Adams.
Hillary Adams says that until last week, only a couple of close friends knew about the savage beating she received seven years ago from her father, a Texas judge who handles child abuse cases.

Now the beating is on display to the world on YouTube thanks to a secret video she made, and her father, Aransas County Court-at-Law Judge William Adams, is the subject of a police investigation.

Hillary Adams, 23, says the outpouring of support and encouragement she's received since posting the 2004 video online last week is tempered by the sadness that it's her father lashing her 17 times with a belt and threatening to beat her "into submission." The 8-minute video had been watched nearly 2 million times by Thursday morning.


Nov. 2: Hillary Adams, daughter of Aransas County Court-at-Law Judge William Adams, walks outside her mother's home in Portland, Texas.

In this March 17, 2005, photo Hillary Adams, the daughter of Aransas County Court-at-Law Judge William Adams, practices the piano at her home in Rockport, Texas

"I'm experiencing some regret because I just pulled the covers off my own father's misbehavior after so many people thought he was such a good person. ... But so many people are also telling me I did the right thing," she told The Associated Press outside her mother's home in the Gulf Coast town of Portland, near Corpus Christi.

"He's supposed to be a judge who exercises fit judgment," she said."I cannot stress enough -- I cannot repeat myself enough, that he just needs help."

And she said the videoed attack was not a one-off. "It did happen regularly for a period of time," she told NBC's "Today" show on Thursday.

GRAPHIC WARNING: Click here to see the video

In the same interview, Hallie Adams blamed her ex-husband's bouts of violence on his "addiction," calling it a "family secret." She did not elaborate. Their 22-year marriage ended in 2007.

The judge did not return an AP reporter's call seeking comment early Thursday.

Police in Rockport, where the 51-year-old judge lives, opened an investigation Wednesday after receiving calls from several concerned citizens, Police Chief Tim Jayroe said.

William Adams has been receiving threatening phone calls and faxes at the courthouse since the video went online, Aransas County Sheriff Bill Mills said.

No one answered the door Wednesday at the judge's home, repeated calls to his office rang unanswered and his attorney, William Dudley, did not respond to phone messages seeking comment. A neighbor said she saw Adams and his girlfriend packing luggage, a briefcase and rifles into their truck.

Corpus Christi television station KZTV caught up with the judge while he was getting into his vehicle Wednesday, and he confirmed it was him in the video. But he said it "looks worse than it is" and that he doesn't expect to be disciplined.

"In my mind, I haven't done anything wrong other than discipline my child after she was caught stealing," Adams said. "And I did lose my temper, but I've since apologized."

When told of her father's comments, Hillary Adams said, "it's a shining perfect example of his personality and he believes he can do no wrong. ... He will cover up rather than admit to what he did and try to come clean."

She stressed that she did not post the video as revenge and does not want her father punished. Rather, she did it because she thinks it will force him to seek help, and because he has been harassing her and she thought posting the clip would make that stop.

"We need to reach out to victims and the abusers themselves to get people to realize what it actually is," she said.Hillary, who was 16 at the time, said she secretly videotaped the beating in her bedroom because she "knew something was about to happen." She says her parents were angry at her for using her computer to download pirated content over the Internet.

In the clip's opening seconds, William Adams is heard telling Hillary's mother, "Go get the belt. The big one. I'm going to spank her now." With belt in hand, he turns off the light and tries forcing his daughter to bend over the bed to be beaten, but she refuses.

"Lay down or I'll spank you in your (expletive) face," Adams screams while he lashes her with sweeping blows across the legs, ignoring her wails and pleas for him to stop.

A few minutes into the video, Hillary's mother barks at her to "turn over like a 16-year-old and take it! Like a grown woman!" For about a minute, the ordeal appears to have ended after both parents leave the room and shut the door. But the judge then storms back into the room and the beating resumes.

Hallie Adams said she was "completely brainwashed and controlled" by her ex-husband.

"I did every single thing that he did," she told NBC. Hillary Adams said she is not angry at her mother.

Child advocates roundly condemned the beating as abuse. But investigators may decide that the judge's actions, while shocking, weren't criminal.

The lines between what's deemed child abuse and what's considered an acceptable level of discipline differ across the country and among various social groups, though the use of objects such as belts and sticks is usually seen as beyond any normal physical punishment, said David Finkelhor, a University of New Hampshire sociology professor who heads the school's Crimes against Children Research Center.

Adams, Aransas County's top judge, was elected in 2001 and has dealt with at least 349 family law cases in the past year alone, nearly 50 of which involved state caseworkers seeking determine whether parents were fit to raise their children.

Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for the state Department of Family and Protective Services, said in an email that the agency is aware of the video and "will take the appropriate steps in this matter." He said the agency would have no further comment.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/03/texas-judge-caught-on-video-beating-daughter-needs-help/

kcballer

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2011, 01:59:37 PM »
Above example is blatant abuse.  Your children are not a punching/whipping bag. 
Abandon every hope...

Emmortal

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2011, 02:04:14 PM »
That's the way I read the article too.  But the bigger question/issue is whether the government should be prosecuting parents who discipline their kids, and how you distinguish discipline from abuse.

Didn't this guy punch his son in the face and break his nose?  I'd consider that stepping over the line.

I've had plenty of beatings when I was a kid and I'll spank my children for discipline as well, but punching your kid in the face doesn't fall under that category IMO.

Dos Equis

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2011, 02:36:46 PM »
Didn't this guy punch his son in the face and break his nose?  I'd consider that stepping over the line.

I've had plenty of beatings when I was a kid and I'll spank my children for discipline as well, but punching your kid in the face doesn't fall under that category IMO.

I pretty much agree, if you're talking about discipline.  Only exception I'd make is if the kid took a swing at the parent, or something like that.  

Skip8282

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Re: Parental Discipline or Child Abuse?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »
Is this discipline or abuse? 



Texas Judge Caught on Video Beating Daughter 'Needs Help'
Published November 03, 2011
Associated Press

This undated image provided by the Aransas County, Texas Court-at-Law webpage shows Aransas County Judge William Adams.
Hillary Adams says that until last week, only a couple of close friends knew about the savage beating she received seven years ago from her father, a Texas judge who handles child abuse cases.




This one is flat out abuse.