All of a sudden everyone uses anadrol.

[makaveli25]

Love these threads lots of good info.

[WillGrant]

Oxymetholone is certainly more toxic than dbol and is also used in higher dosages. You hear about guys running 100-150mgs ed of drol all the time, but rarely doses of dbol approaching even half that much. If your dbol is legit, 20-30mgs ed is PLENTY. The upper range approaches 100mgs ed, but that is suicide for most.

Agree with dbol - 20 -30mg suits me best, if I go over 30mg the sides get to unbearable (for me)..

I have a friend who gets nose bleeds off 50mg of drol where as a Pro I know and a couple of other really big boys take 5 a day with no worries at all.

[GroinkTropin]

Agree with dbol - 20 -30mg suits me best, if I go over 30mg the sides get to unbearable (for me)..

I have a friend who gets nose bleeds off 50mg of drol where as a Pro I know and a couple of other really big boys take 5 a day with no worries at all.

If I remember correctly Dianabol strongly binds to the AR and quickly reaches saturation at around 20-30mgs ED for the average user. I would guess doses will escalate as bodyweight (lbm I mean, not fat) does, but even a 260lb in shape guy should not need more then 50-60mgs ED. If that's not enough, up the test or deca, not the oral. I do suspect Drol can be useful for very high doses, up to 250-300 mgs ed if your body mass is high enough, mostly because drol is a type 2 steroid, meaning it causes growth/anabolism through pathways unrelated to the androgen receptor. Things like this make all the difference when you are planning a cycle.

[Van_Bilderass]

If I remember correctly Dianabol strongly binds to the AR and quickly reaches saturation at around 20-30mgs ED for the average user. I would guess doses will escalate as bodyweight (lbm I mean, not fat) does, but even a 260lb in shape guy should not need more then 50-60mgs ED. If that's not enough, up the test or deca, not the oral. I do suspect Drol can be useful for very high doses, up to 250-300 mgs ed if your body mass is high enough, mostly because drol is a type 2 steroid, meaning it causes growth/anabolism through pathways unrelated to the androgen receptor. Things like this make all the difference when you are planning a cycle.

Bro, you've been reading reeeal old stuff by Bill Roberts and I notice you must've been on Elite Fitness back in the day and taken everything that Ulter and Macro said as gospel. Am I right? 

There has been some progress in this field since 2000, even if small. 

Oxymetholone itself has very poor binding but it's possible it has a metabolite that has very good binding. Meaning it would essentially be a prohormone of sorts. And even with relatively poor binding a steroid can turn on the "right" genes making it effective.

The class 1 and 2 theory is just that, a theory, by Bill Roberts. I bet it's wrong. All steroids work through the androgen receptor basically... these secondary pthways aren't enough to explain the anabolism otherwise IMO. How would one explain the androgenic/virilizing effects of Anadrol if it didn't bind to the AR?

[MuscleMcMannus]

Anadrol isn't any more toxic than any other steroids.  It's actually one of the few steroids still used in medicine.  People take it for years on end without any adverse effects. 

[GroinkTropin]

Bro, you've been reading reeeal old stuff by Bill Roberts and I notice you must've been on Elite Fitness back in the day and taken everything that Ulter and Macro said as gospel. Am I right? 

There has been some progress in this field since 2000, even if small. 

Oxymetholone itself has very poor binding but it's possible it has a metabolite that has very good binding. Meaning it would essentially be a prohormone of sorts. And even with relatively poor binding a steroid can turn on the "right" genes making it effective.

The class 1 and 2 theory is just that, a theory, by Bill Roberts. I bet it's wrong. All steroids work through the androgen receptor basically... these secondary pthways aren't enough to explain the anabolism otherwise IMO. How would one explain the androgenic/virilizing effects of Anadrol if it didn't bind to the AR?

I believe the class 1 and 2 theory to be sound. Essentially you can trigger growth without direct binding of the AR. Drol for example increased rbc production, sodium retention and a number of other things. I also have a theory that, since estrogen is mitogenic and has been known to increase proliferation of AR's by acting directly upon than and inducing mitosis that anadrol might influence growth by causing a sensitization of estrogen receptors. Hard to grasp at first, but it makes sense to me.

If and when I go back on, tprop/npp/drol will be my first comeback cycle. We will see what happens. Obviously planning my ancillaries as well.

Curious do you think cabaser to be best for proggy sides or is prami better? Or other? What about bromocriptine? Chaste berry? Curious what you think.

[Van_Bilderass]

Curious do you think cabaser to be best for proggy sides or is prami better? Or other? What about bromocriptine? Chaste berry? Curious what you think.

I do not know anyone who ever used any of these compounds. I have no clue.

What I do think is that there's much confusion about this progesterone/prolactin thing as a whole. Everyone is talking about their "progesterone gyno" or "prolactin gyno" etc but it's just mostly wild speculation IMO. People don't really have a clue what is doing what or what the mechanism behind the side-effects is. For example, everyone says trenbolone raises prolactin because it's a progesterone agonist right? What does the research say? The opposite basically. Estrogens raise prolactin, whereas androgens such as Tren/Deca don't/shouldn't.

Only thing I remember is that bromocriptine desensitizes leydig cells to LH/HCG so I don't think it's necessarily that wonderful.  
Plus playing with your dopamine too much might not be a good idea from a mental health standpoint either.  

Did the top pros in the 90s need prami for their "progesterone problems" due to Parabolan or Deca?  

[GroinkTropin]

I do not know anyone who ever used any of these compounds. I have no clue.

What I do think is that there's much confusion about this progesterone/prolactin thing as a whole. Everyone is talking about their "progesterone gyno" or "prolactin gyno" etc but it's just mostly wild speculation IMO. People don't really have a clue what is doing what or what the mechanism behind the side-effects is. For example, everyone says trenbolone raises prolactin because it's a progesterone agonist right? What does the research say? The opposite basically. Estrogens raise prolactin, whereas androgens such as Tren/Deca don't/shouldn't.

Only thing I remember is that bromocriptine desensitizes leydig cells to LH/HCG so I don't think it's necessarily that wonderful.  
Plus playing with your dopamine too much might not be a good idea from a mental health standpoint either.  

Did the top pros in the 90s need prami for their "progesterone problems" due to Parabolan or Deca?  

Curious observation, and I agree, it seems way easier to get gyno now then back a few decades...Hmm, maybe the doses back then were lower? Idk. I am considering just running letro prior to starting, for maybe a week prior, and keeping prami on hand in case I need it. But lot's of guys get gyno from tren nowadays than in the past. It is strange.

Do you have a theory?

[no one]

I believe the class 1 and 2 theory to be sound. Essentially you can trigger growth without direct binding of the AR. Drol for example increased rbc production, sodium retention and a number of other things. I also have a theory that, since estrogen is mitogenic and has been known to increase proliferation of AR's by acting directly upon than and inducing mitosis that anadrol might influence growth by causing a sensitization of estrogen receptors. Hard to grasp at first, but it makes sense to me.

If and when I go back on, tprop/npp/drol will be my first comeback cycle. We will see what happens. Obviously planning my ancillaries as well.

Curious do you think cabaser to be best for proggy sides or is prami better? Or other? What about bromocriptine? Chaste berry? Curious what you think.

i like caber and prefer it myself. some say that caber and arimidex combined dont do anything. i beg to differ. 2 weeks on this combo and any sensitivity i had disappeared.

[MuscleMcMannus]

I do not know anyone who ever used any of these compounds. I have no clue.

What I do think is that there's much confusion about this progesterone/prolactin thing as a whole. Everyone is talking about their "progesterone gyno" or "prolactin gyno" etc but it's just mostly wild speculation IMO. People don't really have a clue what is doing what or what the mechanism behind the side-effects is. For example, everyone says trenbolone raises prolactin because it's a progesterone agonist right? What does the research say? The opposite basically. Estrogens raise prolactin, whereas androgens such as Tren/Deca don't/shouldn't.

Only thing I remember is that bromocriptine desensitizes leydig cells to LH/HCG so I don't think it's necessarily that wonderful.  
Plus playing with your dopamine too much might not be a good idea from a mental health standpoint either.  

Did the top pros in the 90s need prami for their "progesterone problems" due to Parabolan or Deca?  

Umm most responsible steroid users get regular blood work.  So if your prolactin is  elevated it's obvious.  So you're wrong.  It's not wild speculation. And cabaser is some great shit.  Even if you don't do steroids.  It's a nootropic and also can help men with their refractory period.  I can fuck like a horse on that shit.  3 timees a day and it makes me feel bbetter than any antidepressant I've ever tried.

[GroinkTropin]

Umm most responsible steroid users get regular blood work.  So if your prolactin is  elevated it's obvious.  So you're wrong.  It's not wild speculation. And cabaser is some great shit.  Even if you don't do steroids.  It's a nootropic and also can help men with their refractory period.  I can fuck like a horse on that shit.  3 timees a day and it makes me feel bbetter than any antidepressant I've ever tried.

Where do you get your cab from? A research company or what? Pm if necessary, though I do not think it's controlled. Gracias.

[g101]

Curious do you think cabaser to be best for proggy sides or is prami better? Or other? What about bromocriptine? Chaste berry? Curious what you think.

i had a hard time sleeping when i was using prami 

[Stavios]

i like caber and prefer it myself. some say that caber and arimidex combined dont do anything. i beg to differ. 2 weeks on this combo and any sensitivity i had disappeared.

I love aromasin myself.

I like it even more than femara

[Van_Bilderass]

Umm most responsible steroid users get regular blood work.  So if your prolactin is  elevated it's obvious.  So you're wrong.  It's not wild speculation. And cabaser is some great shit.  Even if you don't do steroids.  It's a nootropic and also can help men with their refractory period.  I can fuck like a horse on that shit.  3 timees a day and it makes me feel bbetter than any antidepressant I've ever tried.

Maybe blood work is the responsible thing to do but the fact is that 99%+ of steroid users or those supplementing with dopamine agonists do not get regular blood work, especially for things like prolactin. Bodybuilders responsible? LOL  

Since you have had blood work done regularly, what did you prolactin values look like? Are they in range when not on progesterone agonistic steroids? Are they out of range on Deca or Tren? Have you done Deca or tren without aromatizing steroids in the stack? If so, was prolactin in range?

Patrick Arnold doesn't think things like Tren increase prolactin directly (animal studies show opposite effect with tren pellets). He thinks it, and other non-aromatizing steroids, increase aromatase enzyme, which obviously increases estrogen if you have any test in the stack. More estrogen = elevated prolactin. His opinion isn't the last word by any means but the fact of the matter is that most bodybuilders in general have no idea wtf they are doing, what the drugs they are taking do, and they don't care. The majority do NOT get any type of blood work, especially during cycle. They will take anything and everything without even a cursory glance at the PDR reference for that particular drug. Very lazy. I'm lazy too but if I take new drug I at least read the PDR reference, but it's  obviously asking too much from the typical bodybuilder.  

[Stavios]

I'm lazy too but if I take new drug I at least read the PDR reference, but it's  obviously asking too much from the typical bodybuilder.  

bro I don't even know wtf is a PDR reference

does it mean to up the dosage in some ways ? 

[Van_Bilderass]

bro I don't even know wtf is a PDR reference

does it mean to up the dosage in some ways ?  

Physician's Desk Reference. You know the book your doc and the pharmacy has with all the drugs in it?
The insert in a box of drugs is pretty much the same thing.

I mean a bb could at least read the side-effects part... that way they don't have to ask their bros if this or that weird thing they are noticing is due to the new drug they are taking. They would know what to look out for, what's serious and what's not. It doesn't answer all questions about bodybuilding application obviously (abuse of the drug ) but it's a start to get an idea of what it does.

[tlc]

How long should one leave it to be relatively safe between dbol cycles? Been on it for 3 weeks now at 30mg/day split am/lunch/late evening and experiencing no negative side affects whatsoever. Running test e as well. Lowest row of abs have gotten a bit blurrier but I'm putting on strength and mass like a bastard.

Are dbol and drol hepatoxic in the same way? ie. 1 month either OK, 2 months bad, but 1 month one then one month the other OK? If you see what I mean?

[Stavios]

Physician's Desk Reference. You know the book your doc and the pharmacy has with all the drugs in it?
The insert in a box of drugs is pretty much the same thing.

I mean a bb could at least read the side-effects part... that way they don't have to ask their bros if this or that weird thing they are noticing is due to the new drug they are taking. They would know what to look out for, what's serious and what's not. It doesn't answer all questions about bodybuilding application obviously (abuse of the drug ) but it's a start to get an idea of what it does.

Ooooh ok I do check those things out but on google.


that's how I found out cialis was destroying my stomach 

[Patmuscle]

do u guys recommend use proviron along with dbol and drol to eliminate the water

[no one]

Patrick Arnold doesn't think things like Tren increase prolactin directly (animal studies show opposite effect with tren pellets). He thinks it, and other non-aromatizing steroids, increase aromatase enzyme, which obviously increases estrogen if you have any test in the stack. More estrogen = elevated prolactin.

i agree with him. i can run 700mg plus of tren ace a week and and get prolactin induced senstitivity BUT, throw some winstrol in there and its a totally different ball game. for me winny + tren= very bad news.

[Van_Bilderass]

i agree with him. i can run 700mg plus of tren ace a week and and get prolactin induced senstitivity BUT, throw some winstrol in there and its a totally different ball game. for me winny + tren= very bad news.

You mean Winny makes it worse? It used to be that Winny was used to combat these "progesterone sides" from tren.
Still see this idea thrown around. Of course back in the day some geniouses such as nandi (the best) pointed out that the data seems to say the opposite... winny is an agonist too.

[no one]

You mean Winny makes it worse? It used to be that Winny was used to combat these "progesterone sides" from tren.
Still see this idea thrown around. Of course back in the day some geniouses such as nandi (the best) pointed out that the data seems to say the opposite... winny is an agonist too.

nah dude. i ran tren ace and winny with prop last year and i was sore like crazy. i can run either or and be fine. both together for some reason really aggravate me. i've heard the same thing about winny. the exact opposite seems to hold true for me.

[Captain Equipoise]

do u guys recommend use proviron along with dbol and drol to eliminate the water

Proviron doesn't so much eliminate the water as it keeps your libido functioning, esp when on other things like deca, winstrol, tren, etc.  it also has a synergistic effect, making all the hormones you're taking work more efficiently together, one of the most important things I ever found out about gear use from a pro was to use proviron if you're combining more then 3 products.

[Palpatine Q]

yeah, gh15 actually said once you get lean off tren, take it out and blow up with anadrola. 

We are witnessing, THE NEW TESTAMENT

No what we are witnessing is a bunch of armchair warriors pretend they know about something and act like trained monkeys

[DK II]

great thread.