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Agnostic007
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« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2011, 08:37:25 AM »

And your point is?

hmmmm.. that there are two seperate 10 commandments that moses was given by god and they were different. That probably 90% of christians don't know that little tidbit. And that the sculpture reminded me of that fact. So I thought out loud, which set is it?

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« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2011, 08:38:29 AM »

hmmmm.. that there are two seperate 10 commandments that moses was given by god and they were different. That probably 90% of christians don't know that little tidbit. And that the sculpture reminded me of that fact. So I thought out loud, which set is it?



What does that have to do with the discussion in thread?
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« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2011, 08:40:41 AM »

And yet, even with the practice of opening legislative sessions with prayer, politicians still seem to screw things up... weird huh?

And your point is?
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2011, 08:45:42 AM »

And your point is?

value of prayer in the government is questionable at best. Thought that was obvious..
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« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2011, 08:46:05 AM »

this argument is non-sequitor. Say obama instilled muslim tradition today would that make the US a muslim nation founded on muslim principles? if something occured in 1845 it doesnt change the foundation, just the same as if something occured today.

You are missing the point, Necrosis!  I am not arguing.  I am giving you an abundance of reasons why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.  

In the example above, why would an atheist nation or government bother to set presidential and congressional elections on Tuesday just to avoid disrupting Sunday Church?  Why not just make voters skip Sunday church once every four years?
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2011, 08:46:46 AM »

What does that have to do with the discussion in thread?

Call me the thread color commentator if it helps.
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« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2011, 09:09:50 AM »

value of prayer in the government is questionable at best. Thought that was obvious..

And?
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« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »

US presidents and other federal officials swear on the Bible and say the words "so help me God."

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« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2011, 10:03:37 AM »

You are missing the point, Necrosis!  I am not arguing.  I am giving you an abundance of reasons why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.  

In the example above, why would an atheist nation or government bother to set presidential and congressional elections on Tuesday just to avoid disrupting Sunday Church?  Why not just make voters skip Sunday church once every four years?

didnt say the nation was atheistic either, im just saying that it was not founded on christian principles and that this was a key point. They specifically wanted no religion, as a protection of all religions and to avoid divisive policies wrt the nation.

im not missing your point i see the religious undertones, i get that the majority are christian im specifically speaking about whether America was founded on christian principles which is obvious it was not. They may have been christian, may have had religious underpinnings but they kept it seperate. They may also have been cannibals and pro-slave etc.. however, the agreed upon constitution and treaty do not bare this.
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« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2011, 10:06:29 AM »

US presidents and other federal officials swear on the Bible and say the words "so help me God."



sure? i agree, what does that have to do with the foundation of the nation being built on christian principles?

What principles exactly are outlined?

i believe it is you who is missing the point, stop for a second and read what im saying.

one nation under god was added in 1954, again this has nothing to do with the principles of the nation and constitution. God is also somewhat ambiguous, allah? odin? wotan? which god, im sure you assume it to imply your god but it is not a logical conclusion.
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« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2011, 10:14:45 AM »

didnt say the nation was atheistic either, im just saying that it was not founded on christian principles and that this was a key point. They specifically wanted no religion, as a protection of all religions and to avoid divisive policies wrt the nation.

im not missing your point i see the religious undertones, i get that the majority are christian im specifically speaking about whether America was founded on christian principles which is obvious it was not. They may have been christian, may have had religious underpinnings but they kept it seperate. They may also have been cannibals and pro-slave etc.. however, the agreed upon constitution and treaty do not bare this.

I seriously doubt that fundies and repubs, as you call them, want a theocracy, or believe that the founders wanted a theocracy.
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« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2011, 05:17:52 AM »

I have to wonder which set of 10 commandments Moses is shown to be holding there... The ones he smashed or the ones he got that replaced the smashed ones that were different and rarely mentioned by preachers.

And which "different and rarely mentioned" commandments would these be?
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« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2011, 07:31:57 AM »

US presidents and other federal officials swear on the Bible and say the words "so help me God."



your point?

(see how silly this game is?)
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« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2011, 07:35:09 AM »

your point?

(see how silly this game is?)

Why would an atheist government have presidents and other federal officials swear on the Bible and say the words "so help me God"?  This is yet another reason why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Unlike you, I am staying on topic.  Stop trolling!
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2011, 07:48:45 AM »

And which "different and rarely mentioned" commandments would these be?

Ironically, found this post that you had quoted from me in another thread..


The first ten Commandments found in Ex 20

The Ten Commandments
 1 And God spoke all these words:
 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

 13 "You shall not murder.

 14 "You shall not commit adultery.

 15 "You shall not steal.

 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


Moses comes down with the two tablets, sees the golden calf, has a fit and smashes the two tablets.
He goes back up to get replacement tablets and here is what is written on them.

Exodus 34


17Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

 18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

 19All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

 20But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

 21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

 22And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

 23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

 24For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

 25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

 26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

 27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

 28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
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« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2011, 08:12:42 AM »

Ironically, found this post that you had quoted from me in another thread..


The first ten Commandments found in Ex 20

The Ten Commandments
 1 And God spoke all these words:
 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

 13 "You shall not murder.

 14 "You shall not commit adultery.

 15 "You shall not steal.

 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


Moses comes down with the two tablets, sees the golden calf, has a fit and smashes the two tablets.
He goes back up to get replacement tablets and here is what is written on them.

Exodus 34


17Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

 18The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

 19All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

 20But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

 21Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

 22And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

 23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

 24For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

 25Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

 26The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

 27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

 28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


You forgot the very FIRST verse.

Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. ".

That would mean that those are the SAME commandments.
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« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2011, 08:23:47 AM »

You forgot the very FIRST verse.

Now the LORD said to Moses, "Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered. ".

That would mean that those are the SAME commandments.

Except...that the writer of the manuscript didn't do that and outlined what went on the new tablets and they were different.
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« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2011, 08:31:37 AM »

Why would an atheist government have presidents and other federal officials swear on the Bible and say the words "so help me God"?  This is yet another reason why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Unlike you, I am staying on topic.  Stop trolling!

Secular government

not an atheist government. Loco you are really changing what you are trying to prove in this thread. First you tried to show the founding fathers were christians, and we disproved that. Then you tried showing that because john adams was a christian, therefore the founding fathers were Christians, then we disproved that. Then you backed off a little bit and said its impossible to know for sure whether or not they were Christians (I think we can make a pretty accurate guess). Then you said we were founded on christian principles, but you never tried to explain what christian principles that slave owning/raping, native american killing, sexist, violent, prideful men actually held near and dear to their hearts. Now you are only saying that "many" people believe we were founded on christian principles and are giving evidence to try to explain why MANY people believe we were (you stopped claiming that you yourself believed this to be true). Just because many people believe something to be true does not mean it is true.


Once again, if your point and only point is that some people that lived in the United States in the past 300 years were Christians, and some of those people were elected into public office, then why even bring it up? You're trying to prove something true for the large because it is true for the small. Can't do that. Take a minute to set back and reformulate what your point is in explicit detail.
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« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2011, 08:36:56 AM »

Except...that the writer of the manuscript didn't do that and outlined what went on the new tablets and they were different.

Those verses appear to elaborate further on what the Commandments instructed Israel to do. Nonetheless, verse 1 starts with the declaration that the second set of tablets woudl have the words that were on the first set (or former) tablets.

That means there were no different set of Ten Commandments.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2011, 08:41:05 AM »

Those verses appear to elaborate further on what the Commandments instructed Israel to do. Nonetheless, verse 1 starts with the declaration that the second set of tablets woudl have the words that were on the first set (or former) tablets.

That means there were no different set of Ten Commandments.

Except that they were.... I don't know what else to say. Whether you read the chapters in excerpts as I presented, or in it's entirety, the result is the same. The second set of 10 Commandments were different than the first set. 
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« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2011, 08:44:27 AM »

Secular government

not an atheist government. Loco you are really changing what you are trying to prove in this thread. First you tried to show the founding fathers were christians, and we disproved that. Then you tried showing that because john adams was a christian, therefore the founding fathers were Christians, then we disproved that. Then you backed off a little bit and said its impossible to know for sure whether or not they were Christians (I think we can make a pretty accurate guess). Then you said we were founded on christian principles, but you never tried to explain what christian principles that slave owning/raping, native american killing, sexist, violent, prideful men actually held near and dear to their hearts. Now you are only saying that "many" people believe we were founded on christian principles and are giving evidence to try to explain why MANY people believe we were (you stopped claiming that you yourself believed this to be true). Just because many people believe something to be true does not mean it is true.


Once again, if your point and only point is that some people that lived in the United States in the past 300 years were Christians, and some of those people were elected into public office, then why even bring it up? You're trying to prove something true for the large because it is true for the small. Can't do that. Take a minute to set back and reformulate what your point is in explicit detail.

Wrong!

Mr. Magoo,

I already told you once, stop putting words in my mouth.  How about whatever you say I have claimed you quote me on it to prove that I said it or claimed it?  
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« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2011, 08:46:51 AM »

Except that they were.... I don't know what else to say. Whether you read the chapters in excerpts as I presented, or in it's entirety, the result is the same. The second set of 10 Commandments were different than the first set. 

They don't look different to me, just written in the Bible in a different order, not necessarily the order God wrote them on the stone tablets.
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2011, 09:06:29 AM »

Wrong!

Mr. Magoo,

I already told you once, stop putting words in my mouth.  How about whatever you say I have claimed you quote me on it to prove that I said it or claimed it?  

I can't believe I spent 10 minutes doing this. But here.

These are your points:
In reply #2: You said “Founded on Judeo-Christian principles” as a fact.

Reply #2, 4, 8, 11: You only sought to show that America has/had Christians in it

In Reply #13, you discussed the treaty of Tripoli (Which you have noticed I have left out of my own discussion. My point can be made without referring to that document)

In Reply #15: You said the founders were Christian, and you told P.I.P to follow the link to see the evidence that they were Christians.

In Reply #22, you quoted Thomas Jefferson and John Adams to show that they were Christians

In Reply #23, you did the same for George Washington; #24, you did the same for Ben Franklin

In Reply #30 and #31, you talked about the buildings of courthouses and how Congress opens up with prayer

In #32, you cited a Supreme Court case

In #43 you changed your point from Reply #2 by saying “I am showing why so many people believe that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles

In #43, you changed your point from Reply #15 by saying “I have no idea whether or not the founding fathers trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”

In #44, you cited John Jay’s claim to be a Christian

Once again in #54 you changed your point from #2 by saying “I am giving you an abundance of reasons why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.”

In Reply #63, you said “IF the U.S. Government is atheist, then why…”

 
This is how I have responded to those points:
First you said for certain the U.S. was founded on Christian principles. I asked you to explain this in detail, you still have not done this. I agreed with your point that there are Christians that live and have lived in the United States, that is a given. I disproved your next point that the founders were Christians, but I granted that John Adams was, and John Jay was. However, those are not enough. I disproved your point about Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin. Buildings of courthouses and Congress praying does not mean this country was founded on Christianity. If I said the only reason they pray is to appeal to Christian voters, that would be equally valid, but it would also disprove that this country was founded on Christian principles as opposed to politicians appealing to voters. I said the government is secular, not atheist. Also the Supreme Court has made decisions both supporting and refuting your argument, so appealing to them is not enough. You need to reformulate your point on what Christian principles exactly was the slave owning/raping, native American killing, sexist, violent, prideful founders of this country held near and dear to their heart.

 
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« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2011, 10:06:54 AM »

I can't believe I spent 10 minutes doing this. But here.

Because you are obsessed with winning an argument on the Internet.    Roll Eyes

You are still putting words in my mouth.  You do know how to use the "Quote" link on each of my posts, don't you?  Stop saying "you said" and quote me.  Having a discussion with you is like having a discussion with an old person with dementia.  Claiming I said "the US is a Christian nation", you went on a meltdown earlier in the thread when I actually said the opposite.  
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« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2011, 10:32:16 AM »

Because you are obsessed with winning an argument on the Internet.    Roll Eyes

You are still putting words in my mouth.  You do know how to use the "Quote" link on each of my posts, don't you?  Stop saying "you said" and quote me.  Having a discussion with you is like having a discussion with an old person with dementia.  Claiming I said "the US is a Christian nation", you went on a meltdown earlier in the thread when I actually said the opposite.  

I am not putting words in your mouth. Go back to the replies I referenced by number and examine what you said. That serves the same purpose as me quoting you and is much easier to read. You keep avoiding it. I have nothing else to say that wouldn't be restating what I've already said.

I am probably obsessed with winning this argument. That is because I have done my homework in this area and I have had this same argument many times before. I'm sorry loco, but as already shown in my last post, you have failed in this thread. If you want to come out on top, you need to restate your point in explicit detail. IF your point is only that some people that lived in the united states were christian, then that is a very different claim from saying the United States was founded on christian principles (as you claimed it in fact was in reply #2 but changed later on as evidenced by my last post). In my last post I brought up every point you made and showed how every one of those points has been answered.

I think it's demeaning to Christianity to claim sexist, violent, bigoted, murdering, raping, slave owning, etc men had christian principles in mind when founding this country.

your move stud.
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