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loco
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« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2011, 10:50:19 AM »

I am not putting words in your mouth. Go back to the replies I referenced by number and examine what you said. That serves the same purpose as me quoting you and is much easier to read. You keep avoiding it. I have nothing else to say that wouldn't be restating what I've already said.

I am probably obsessed with winning this argument. That is because I have done my homework in this area and I have had this same argument many times before. I'm sorry loco, but as already shown in my last post, you have failed in this thread. If you want to come out on top, you need to restate your point in explicit detail. IF your point is only that some people that lived in the united states were christian, then that is a very different claim from saying the United States was founded on christian principles (as you claimed it in fact was in reply #2 but changed later on as evidenced by my last post). In my last post I brought up every point you made and showed how every one of those points has been answered.

I think it's demeaning to Christianity to claim sexist, violent, bigoted, murdering, raping, slave owning, etc men had christian principles in mind when founding this country.

your move stud.

Yes you are putting words in my mouth and you are not quoting me.  It is not my fault that you are Internet Forum illiterate.  It is actually easier to use the "Quote" feature because it includes a link that one can click and be redirected to the actual post one is quoting.  Look:

"Arguing on the Internet is like the Special Olympics.  Even if you win, you are still retarded."

See how easy that is?    Wink

I've already clearly stated my point and given an abundance of reasons for it.  Go back and actually read what I've posted, and try your best not to forget what you read before you reply.   Roll Eyes
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2011, 11:22:15 AM »

Yes you are putting words in my mouth and you are not quoting me.  It is not my fault that you are Internet Forum illiterate.  It is actually easier to use the "Quote" feature because it includes a link that one can click and be redirected to the actual post one is quoting.  Look:

See how easy that is?    Wink

I've already clearly stated my point and given an abundance of reasons for it.  Go back and actually read what I've posted, and try your best not to forget what you read before you reply.   Roll Eyes

If that is your only reply, that I should actually quote Replies #2, #15, etc, in one post instead of saying "Reply #2" and "Reply #15" etc, then that is the end of this thread. You really have nothing else going for you. You do know those "In Reply..." all referred to just this one thread, right? It's not that hard to click back and see what you said in reply 2, 15, etc.

You have not clearly stated your point. You have had many different points (as I pointed out) and you even changed some of those points (as I pointed out). I'm not sure if you're just being a dick, or you dont understand my long reference post (Reply #72), or you really just don't have any further arguments. Except that "it's just the internet dude"

End of thread.

Let's recap: 1) The United States is not a Christian Nation 2) The United States was not founded on Christian principles 3) Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin were not christians. 4) John Adams and John Jay may have been Christians  5) There are a lot of christians living in the United States today  6) Some Christians were once on the supreme court. 7) Many people believe the United States was founded on Christian principles
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loco
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« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2011, 11:46:25 AM »

If that is your only reply, that I should actually quote Replies #2, #15, etc, in one post instead of saying "Reply #2" and "Reply #15" etc, then that is the end of this thread. You really have nothing else going for you. You do know those "In Reply..." all referred to just this one thread, right? It's not that hard to click back and see what you said in reply 2, 15, etc.

You have not clearly stated your point. You have had many different points (as I pointed out) and you even changed some of those points (as I pointed out). I'm not sure if you're just being a dick, or you dont understand my long reference post (Reply #72), or you really just don't have any further arguments. Except that "it's just the internet dude"

End of thread.

Let's recap: 1) The United States is not a Christian Nation 2) The United States was not founded on Christian principles 3) Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin were not christians. 4) John Adams and John Jay may have been Christians  5) There are a lot of christians living in the United States today  6) Some Christians were once on the supreme court. 7) Many people believe the United States was founded on Christian principles

Man, you are either lazy or you lack reading comprehension.  I did clearly state my point, and I have changed nothing.  Quote me if you dare and stop putting words in my mouth.  I thought the Mr. Magoo thing was just an Internet name, but maybe you are an old, blind man with dementia.  And I am not "being a dick", but you are.  I don't appreciate you posting over and over that I said the US is a Christian nation when I actually said the opposite from the beginning, and all the other stuff you claim that I did and said.  Go back and actually read my posts.    Roll Eyes
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loco
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« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2011, 12:08:22 PM »

3) Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin were not christians.


Now that's very interesting!  

Why Have Scholars Underplayed George Washington’s Faith?

Historian Peter A. Lillback, Ph.D., is president of The Providence Forum, president of Westminster Theological Seminary, and senior pastor at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. He is the author of the bestseller George Washington’s Sacred Fire (2006, Providence Forum Press).

Within this vast collection of Washington’s own words and writings, we now have a remarkable ability to uncover what earlier scholars were unable to access. And when we let Washington’s own words and deeds speak for his faith we get quite a different perspective than that of most recent modern historians. Washington referred to himself frequently using the words “ardent,” “fervent,” “pious,” and “devout.” There are over one hundred different prayers composed and written by Washington in his own hand, with his own words, in his writings. He described himself as one of the deepest men of faith of his day when he confessed to a clergyman, “No Man has a more perfect Reliance on the alwise, and powerful dispensations of the Supreme Being than I have nor thinks his aid more necessary.”

Rather than avoid the word “God,” on the very first national Thanksgiving under the U.S. Constitution, he said, “It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor.” Although he never once used the word “Deist” in his voluminous writings, he often mentioned religion, Christianity, and the Gospel. He spoke of Christ as “the divine Author of our blessed religion.” He encouraged missionaries who were seeking to “Christianize” the “aboriginals.” He took an oath in a private letter, “on my honor and the faith of a Christian.” He wrote of “the blessed religion revealed in the Word of God.” He encouraged seekers to learn “the religion of Jesus Christ.” He even said to his soldiers, “To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian.” Not bad for a “lukewarm” Episcopalian!

Historians ought no longer be permitted to do the legerdemain of turning Washington into a Deist even if they found it necessary and acceptable to do so in the past. Simply put, it is time to let the words and writings of Washington’s faith speak for themselves.

http://hnn.us/articles/34925.html


What we did prove, and quite conclusively, is that Washington cannot be called a Deist—at least, not in a sense that excludes his being Christian. Although he did most often address God in the proper names a Deist might use—such as "Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be" and "Disposer of all human events"—the actions that Washington expected God to perform, as expressed both in his official public prayers (whether as general or as president) and in his private prayers as recorded, are the sorts of actions only the God of the Bible performs: interposing his actions in human events, forgiving sins, enlightening minds, bringing good harvests, intervening on behalf of one party in a struggle between good and evil (in this case, between liberty and the deprivation of liberty), etc. Many persons at the end of the 18th century were both Christians and Deists. But it cannot be said, in the simpleminded sense in which historians have become accustomed to putting it, that Washington was merely a Deist, or even that the God to whom he prayed was expected to behave like a Deist God at all.

Michael Novak - Washington’s Sun God: Reviewing a review. National Review Online, March 14, 2006

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/217044/washingtons-i-sun-i-god/michael-novak
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« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2011, 02:54:53 PM »

Stop this already. I have already pointed you to a new book and a new york times article discussing the myth around George Washington's religion. That article you posted by a preacher, is wrong. (Needless to say, I never called Washington a deist, I said he is not a Christian as we understand the term today; of course you know that is completely compatible even if George Washington stood on top of a mountain and shouted "I am a Christian" 400 times a day. Of course, He never admitted to being a Christian, nor really discussed his faith).

Please read back over my posts in this thread, find the title of that book, and read it. Stop google searching to prove me wrong, politics and political philosophy is my area of interest Loco.

You are wrong. How many times do I have to say this or prove it before you'll stop this childish nonsense. I'm beginning to think you aren't being sincere and are just trying to get on my nerves.

This thread is already finished. The conclusions have already been stated.
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« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2011, 03:49:10 PM »

Stop this already. I have already pointed you to a new book and a new york times article discussing the myth around George Washington's religion. That article you posted by a preacher, is wrong. (Needless to say, I never called Washington a deist, I said he is not a Christian as we understand the term today; of course you know that is completely compatible even if George Washington stood on top of a mountain and shouted "I am a Christian" 400 times a day. Of course, He never admitted to being a Christian, nor really discussed his faith).

Please read back over my posts in this thread, find the title of that book, and read it. Stop google searching to prove me wrong, politics and political philosophy is my area of interest Loco.

You are wrong. How many times do I have to say this or prove it before you'll stop this childish nonsense. I'm beginning to think you aren't being sincere and are just trying to get on my nerves.

This thread is already finished. The conclusions have already been stated.

QFT
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« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 12:06:32 AM »

I can't believe I spent 10 minutes doing this. But here.

These are your points:
In reply #2: You said “Founded on Judeo-Christian principles” as a fact.

Reply #2, 4, 8, 11: You only sought to show that America has/had Christians in it

In Reply #13, you discussed the treaty of Tripoli (Which you have noticed I have left out of my own discussion. My point can be made without referring to that document)

In Reply #15: You said the founders were Christian, and you told P.I.P to follow the link to see the evidence that they were Christians.

In Reply #22, you quoted Thomas Jefferson and John Adams to show that they were Christians

In Reply #23, you did the same for George Washington; #24, you did the same for Ben Franklin

In Reply #30 and #31, you talked about the buildings of courthouses and how Congress opens up with prayer

In #32, you cited a Supreme Court case

In #43 you changed your point from Reply #2 by saying “I am showing why so many people believe that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles

In #43, you changed your point from Reply #15 by saying “I have no idea whether or not the founding fathers trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior”

In #44, you cited John Jay’s claim to be a Christian

Once again in #54 you changed your point from #2 by saying “I am giving you an abundance of reasons why so many people inside and outside the US believe that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.”

In Reply #63, you said “IF the U.S. Government is atheist, then why…”

 
This is how I have responded to those points:
First you said for certain the U.S. was founded on Christian principles. I asked you to explain this in detail, you still have not done this. I agreed with your point that there are Christians that live and have lived in the United States, that is a given. I disproved your next point that the founders were Christians, but I granted that John Adams was, and John Jay was. However, those are not enough. I disproved your point about Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin. Buildings of courthouses and Congress praying does not mean this country was founded on Christianity. If I said the only reason they pray is to appeal to Christian voters, that would be equally valid, but it would also disprove that this country was founded on Christian principles as opposed to politicians appealing to voters. I said the government is secular, not atheist. Also the Supreme Court has made decisions both supporting and refuting your argument, so appealing to them is not enough. You need to reformulate your point on what Christian principles exactly was the slave owning/raping, native American killing, sexist, violent, prideful founders of this country held near and dear to their heart.

 


checkmate?
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« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2011, 05:13:43 PM »

Government/Worldly Religion.....Same thing.

Whats that one verse in the bible??

" Every sperm is sacred.................. .." ?

True. SPERM IS SACRED too GOVERNMENT/WORLDLY RELIGION. All about REPRODUCTION. MORE PEOPLE EQUALS MORE MONEY for the government-(worldly religion)

SPERM=$$$$$$$$$


Whats that other verse also...........

" Do not conform to the world but instead conform by the renewing of your mind..............?"

WORLDLY RELIGION is conformity. Its conformity to the world and its religious believes.
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loco
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« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2011, 11:54:32 AM »

The modern motto of the United States of America, as established in a 1956 law signed by President Dwight D Eisenhower, is In God We Trust.



http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx
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« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2011, 12:13:17 PM »


Whats that other verse also...........

" Do not conform to the world but instead conform by the renewing of your mind..............?"

WORLDLY RELIGION is conformity. Its conformity to the world and its religious believes.

 Grin


Romans 12:2

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.


Government/Worldly Religion.....Same thing.

Whats that one verse in the bible??

" Every sperm is sacred.................. .." ?



I don't remember ever reading that one  Huh  Can you please post the scripture?
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« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2011, 01:35:23 PM »

The modern motto of the United States of America, as established in a 1956 law signed by President Dwight D Eisenhower, is In God We Trust.



http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx

God, not Jesus?

Does God belong to Christianity exclusively?  I thought the title of the thread was Christian Nation, not Religious Nation? Huh
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loco
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« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2011, 04:20:06 PM »

I don't remember ever reading that one  Huh  Can you please post the scripture?

It's right after the one that says "Don't go swimming for an hour after you eat or you'll get cramps"    Grin
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loco
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« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2011, 05:24:33 PM »

3) Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin were not christians.


Now that's very interesting!  If Benjamin Franklin was not a Christian, then what was he, a deist?  I deist would not have said the following:

Benjamin Franklin

Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
 
Constitutional Convention, 1787:
In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor.… and have we not forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: “that God governs in the affairs of man.” And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? …
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« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2011, 06:27:26 PM »

Loco, I'm done with this thread. You can keep google searching for little lines here and there taken out of context to try to unravel some mystery that supports your religious beliefs, but it's a waste of time. Whatever point you was trying to prove is wrong. It looks like you're google searching each person trying to find a hint here and a hint there. I've spent a lot of time on this subject and I have talked it over with several political theorists/historians/literature professors/political philosophers, etc. This is my field. No one I have talked to agrees with the point that I think you are trying to make. The only people I have seen try to depict the founding fathers as bible carrying, jesus believing, born again christians who we today should emulate are christians (or Fox news employees) without any background knowledge in the subject.
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loco
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« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2011, 06:39:58 PM »

Loco, I'm done with this thread. You can keep google searching for little lines here and there taken out of context to try to unravel some mystery that supports your religious beliefs, but it's a waste of time. Whatever point you was trying to prove is wrong. It looks like you're google searching each person trying to find a hint here and a hint there. I've spent a lot of time on this subject and I have talked it over with several political theorists/historians/literature professors/political philosophers, etc. This is my field. No one I have talked to agrees with the point that I think you are trying to make. The only people I have seen try to depict the founding fathers as bible carrying, jesus believing, born again christians who we today should emulate are christians (or Fox news employees) without any background knowledge in the subject.

Mr. Magoo,  you are just a name on the Internet.  You may just as well tell us that you have  Ph.D s in American History, in Philosophy, Politics, Religion and it wouldn't make a difference.  You are not presenting evidence of anything, just telling me to go read a book.    Roll Eyes




Happy Independence Day, commonly known as the Fourth of July!    Grin


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."




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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2011, 07:08:49 PM »

In the Spirit of July 4th:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Self-evident, as in not from a Bible or a preacher. Evident by nature, not to be interpreted from a book.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Not really all men. Only white men who owned land, etc

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Men, not women.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Endowed by their creator. No mention of God of judeo-christian. No mention of Jesus. For example, Aristotle talked about a Creator but he did not believe in God nor Jesus.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Life is not an inalienable right. It has been taken away from many for a long time. At the time of the declaration, capital punishment/slavery/etc was widely used, so it was not even true in that time.


See how taking things out of context serves no purpose?. What is written down in a sentence on paper does not always reflect what is the objective reality. These were slave owning/raping, native american killing, sexist, prideful men who advocated a violent overthrow of government. If I showed you a group of people like that now, I highly doubt you would dare call them "Christian".
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« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2011, 10:33:56 PM »

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Again, do those terms belong exclusively to Christianity? 

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« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2011, 05:49:29 AM »

In the Spirit of July 4th:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Self-evident, as in not from a Bible or a preacher. Evident by nature, not to be interpreted from a book.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Not really all men. Only white men who owned land, etc

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Men, not women.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Endowed by their creator. No mention of God of judeo-christian. No mention of Jesus. For example, Aristotle talked about a Creator but he did not believe in God nor Jesus.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Life is not an inalienable right. It has been taken away from many for a long time. At the time of the declaration, capital punishment/slavery/etc was widely used, so it was not even true in that time.


See how taking things out of context serves no purpose?. What is written down in a sentence on paper does not always reflect what is the objective reality. These were slave owning/raping, native american killing, sexist, prideful men who advocated a violent overthrow of government. If I showed you a group of people like that now, I highly doubt you would dare call them "Christian".

I thought you were done with this thread:

Loco, I'm done with this thread.

Obsessed much?
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loco
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« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2011, 05:52:06 AM »

Again, do those terms belong exclusively to Christianity? 

Yes, in this case!

Mottoes of the American Revolution:

"Don’t Tread on Me"

"Join or Die"

"Liberty or Death"

"NO KING BUT KING JESUS!"

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« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2011, 07:38:55 AM »

Good article.

(CNN) -- As America celebrates its birthday on July 4, the timeless words of Thomas Jefferson will surely be invoked to remind us of our founding ideals -- that "All men are created equal" and are "endowed by their Creator" with the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These phrases, a cherished part of our history, have rightly been called "American Scripture."

But Jefferson penned another phrase, arguably his most famous after those from the Declaration of Independence. These far more contentious words -- "a wall of separation between church and state" -- lie at the heart of the ongoing debate between those who see America as a "Christian Nation" and those who see it as a secular republic, a debate that is hotter than a Washington Fourth of July.

It is true these words do not appear in any early national document. What may be Jefferson's second most-quoted phrase is found instead in a letter he sent to a Baptist association in Danbury, Connecticut.

While president in 1802, Jefferson wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State ... "
Tattoos and freedom
The framers ... understood the long history of sectarian bloodshed in Europe that brought many pilgrims to America.
--Kenneth C. Davis
RELATED TOPICS

    * First Amendment Rights
    * U.S. Constitution
    * Thomas Jefferson
    * Religious Freedom and Discrimination
    * Christianity

The idea was not Jefferson's. Other 17th- and 18th-century Enlightenment writers had used a variant of it. Earlier still, religious dissident Roger Williams had written in a 1644 letter of a "hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world."

Williams, who founded Rhode Island with a colonial charter that included religious freedom, knew intolerance firsthand. He and other religious dissenters, including Anne Hutchinson, had been banished from neighboring Massachusetts, the "shining city on a hill" where Catholics, Quakers and Baptists were banned under penalty of death.

As president, Jefferson was voicing an idea that was fundamental to his view of religion and government, expressed most significantly in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which he drafted in 1777.

Revised by James Madison and passed by Virginia's legislature in January 1786, the bill stated: "No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened (sic) in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief ..."

It was this simple -- government could not dictate how to pray, or that you cannot pray, or that you must pray.

Jefferson regarded this law so highly that he had his authorship of the statute made part of his epitaph, along with writing the Declaration and founding the University of Virginia. (Being president wasn't worth a mention.)

Why do Jefferson's "other words" matter today?

First, because knowing history matters -- it can safeguard us from repeating our mistakes and help us value our rights, won at great cost. Yet we are sorely lacking in knowledge about our past, as shown by a recent National Assessment of Educational Progress.

But more to the point, we are witnessing an aggressively promoted version of our history and heritage in which America is called a "Christian Nation."

This "Sunday School" version of our past has gained currency among conservative television commentators, school boards that have rewritten state textbooks and several GOP presidential candidates, some of whom trekked to Ralph Reed's Faith and Freedom Coalition conference in early June 2011.

No one can argue, as "Christian Nation" proponents correctly state, that the Founding Fathers were not Christian, although some notably doubted Christ's divinity.

More precisely, the founders were, with very few exceptions, mainstream Protestants. Many of them were Episcopalians, the American offshoot of the official Church of England. The status of America's Catholics, both legally and socially, in the colonies and early Republic, was clearly second-class. Other Christian sects, including Baptists, Quakers and Mormons, faced official resistance, discrimination and worse for decades.

But the founders, and more specifically the framers of the Constitution, included men who had fought a war for independence -- the very war celebrated on the "Glorious Fourth" -- against a country in which church and state were essentially one.

They understood the long history of sectarian bloodshed in Europe that brought many pilgrims to America. They knew the dangers of merging government, which was designed to protect individual rights, with religion, which as Jefferson argued, was a matter of individual conscience.

And that is why the U.S. Constitution reads as it does.

The supreme law of the land, written in the summer of 1787, includes no references to religion -- including in the presidential oath of office -- until the conclusion of Article VI, after all that dull stuff about debts and treaties: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." (There is a pro forma "Year of the Lord" reference in the date at the Constitution's conclusion.)

Original intent? "No religious Test" seems pretty clear cut.

The primacy of a secular state was solidified when the First Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights. According to Purdue history professor Frank Lambert, that "introduced the radical notion that the state had no voice concerning matters of conscience."

Beyond that, the first House of Representatives, while debating the First Amendment, specifically rejected a Senate proposal calling for the establishment of Christianity as an official religion. As Lambert concludes, "There would be no Church of the United States. Nor would America represent itself as a Christian Republic."

The actions of the first presidents, founders of the first rank, confirmed this "original intent:"

-- In 1790, President George Washington wrote to America's first synagogue, in Rhode Island, that "all possess alike liberty of conscience" and that "toleration" was an "inherent national gift," not the government's to dole out or take away

-- In 1797, with President John Adams in office, the Senate unanimously approved one of America's earliest foreign treaties, which emphatically stated (Article 11): "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen (Muslims) ..."

-- In 1802, Jefferson added his famous "wall of separation," implicit in the Constitution until he so described it (and cited in several Supreme Court decisions since).

These are, to borrow an admittedly loaded phrase, "inconvenient truths" to those who proclaim that America is a "Christian Nation."

The Constitution and the views of these Founding Fathers trump all arguments about references to God in presidential speeches (permitted under the First Amendment), on money (not introduced until the Civil War), the Pledge of Allegiance ("under God" added in 1954) and in the national motto "In God We Trust" (adopted by law in 1956).

And those contentious monuments to the Ten Commandments found around the country and occasionally challenged in court? Many of them were installed as a publicity stunt for Cecile B. DeMille's 1956 Hollywood spectacle, "The Ten Commandments."

So who are you going to believe? Thomas Jefferson or Hollywood? On second thought: Don't answer.
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Beach Bum
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« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2011, 09:07:50 AM »

I see El Profeta (aka loco) is laying the smack down again.   Smiley  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=242510.0
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« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2011, 09:31:54 AM »

At 8:30 PM (Eastern time), on CSPAN 2 there is a book tv talk featuring John Fea, John Ragosta (law professor at UVA), and Barbara Clark Smith. The topic is "The Founding Fathers and Religion". I watched 45 minutes of it earlier today.

http://www.amazon.com/Was-America-Founded-Christian-Nation/dp/0664235042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309796480&sr=8-1
John Fea is a historian. A direct quote from him in the talk is "Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists. He and Ragosta also make the point that the "in the year of our lord" from the Constitution was added by a clerk after all the delegates had left the building.

http://www.amazon.com/Wellspring-Liberty-Virginias-Dissenters-Revolution/dp/0195388062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309796656&sr=1-1
John Ragosta is a professor of law at UVA. He talks about how Thomas Jefferson convinced many states (Such as Vermont) to adopt the separation of church and state like Virginia. He also talks about how baptists were persecuted before the war and after the war did not want government protection for being solely a baptist. One person he quotes says that he is a baptist because he believed in God, and if he expects any favoritism via government for being a baptist, then that is idolatry. He also talks about how they advocated freedom of religion for all religions, including hindus, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-We-Lost-Resistance-Revolutionary/dp/1595581804/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309796870&sr=1-1
Barbara Clark Smith didn't talk much during what I watched. I missed her intro because she was the first to speak. So I can't really sum up any of her points.
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loco
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« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2011, 02:37:48 PM »

At 8:30 PM (Eastern time), on CSPAN 2 there is a book tv talk featuring John Fea, John Ragosta (law professor at UVA), and Barbara Clark Smith. The topic is "The Founding Fathers and Religion". I watched 45 minutes of it earlier today.

http://www.amazon.com/Was-America-Founded-Christian-Nation/dp/0664235042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309796480&sr=8-1
John Fea is a historian. A direct quote from him in the talk is "Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists. He and Ragosta also make the point that the "in the year of our lord" from the Constitution was added by a clerk after all the delegates had left the building.

http://www.amazon.com/Wellspring-Liberty-Virginias-Dissenters-Revolution/dp/0195388062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309796656&sr=1-1
John Ragosta is a professor of law at UVA. He talks about how Thomas Jefferson convinced many states (Such as Vermont) to adopt the separation of church and state like Virginia. He also talks about how baptists were persecuted before the war and after the war did not want government protection for being solely a baptist. One person he quotes says that he is a baptist because he believed in God, and if he expects any favoritism via government for being a baptist, then that is idolatry. He also talks about how they advocated freedom of religion for all religions, including hindus, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-We-Lost-Resistance-Revolutionary/dp/1595581804/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309796870&sr=1-1
Barbara Clark Smith didn't talk much during what I watched. I missed her intro because she was the first to speak. So I can't really sum up any of her points.

I thought you were done with this thread:

Loco, I'm done with this thread.

Obsessed much?
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loco
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« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2011, 03:01:53 PM »

many of the founding fathers were deists

John Adams and John Jay may have been Christians

"Make no mistake, the founding fathers were not Christian". He also says they were not deists.

 Huh
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Necrosis
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« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2011, 07:40:58 PM »

I see El Profeta (aka loco) is laying the smack down again.   Smiley  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=242510.0

you have a skewed via of reality.
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