Author Topic: Christian Nation  (Read 18431 times)

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #150 on: July 06, 2011, 09:34:22 AM »

If this is valid,

then this is valid as well.


No it is not. Grab your logic textbook, turn to the section on common logical fallacies, and read the section on Appeal to Ignorance. I discussed this in my previous post but I guess you didn't read and/or understand. Keep in mind too that I never said it WAS valid. It is a quote, not an argument.

Since you focused on the word "none", I feel like you are about to do the traditional fallacy of appealing to ignorance. Of course you know this is when someone says "Since you cannot prove for certain "Not-X" then it is equally valid for me to say "X". The "X" in this case = the founding fathers were christian. I feel that you are about to say "since you cannot prove for certain that the founding fathers were not christian, then my point equally stands that they were christian." This of course is wrong. Place any statement you want to in place of "X" in the above scenario and see that it doesn't work. For example, make X= Ben Franklin was an alien. It is impossible to prove that Ben Franklin was not an alien. This does not mean that ben franklin was an alien. The evidence points to a certain conclusion on both instances. The evidence points to a conclusion that the founding fathers (I don't personally know about Adams or Jay) were not christian. This evidence has been presented in this thread via 7 books authored by people such as Harvard Law professor, UVA law professor, another professor from UVA, a historian, etc.
 

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #151 on: July 06, 2011, 09:51:52 AM »
No it is not. Grab your logic textbook, turn to the section on common logical fallacies, and read the section on Appeal to Ignorance. I discussed this in my previous post but I guess you didn't read and/or understand. Keep in mind too that I never said it WAS valid. It is a quote, not an argument.



Yes, it is!


So why are you so concerned that Beach Bum doesn't believe your claims that you have put so much time and effort into this thread after you assured me three days ago that you were done with it?

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #152 on: July 06, 2011, 10:00:01 AM »

Yes, it is!

So why are you so concerned that Beach Bum doesn't believe your claims that you have put so much time and effort into this thread after you assured me three days ago that you were done with it?

This is not an argument.  ::) But to simply put this objection away, I never said it was valid. It is his quote, not my argument. I answered this already in your post asking if I agreed with him in that specific quote, remember? If you want to discuss logic and probability, He should have said "the evidence points to the conclusion that with a strong probability the founding fathers were not christian." Simple as that. If you have an issue with his quote, take it up by reading his book. His quote has nothing to do with me personally.

I'm concerned that Beach bum doesn't believe my claims because he seems like a fairly intelligent person. But I don't see how any intelligent person can agree with the statements that you are making.

Oh by the way, validity has nothing to do with truth.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2011, 10:49:08 AM »
I'm concerned that Beach bum doesn't believe my claims because he seems like a fairly intelligent person. But I don't see how any intelligent person can agree with the statements that you are making.

I am letting the founding fathers' words speak for themselves.



George Washington

General Orders, (July 9, 1776)  George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799: Series 3g Varick Transcripts
"The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month -- The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives -- To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger -- The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country."

General Orders (May 2, 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343
"The Commander in Chief directs that divine Service be performed every Sunday at 11 oClock in those Brigades to which there are Chaplains; those which have none to attend the places of worship nearest to them. It is expected that Officers of all Ranks will by their attendence set an Example to their men. While we are zealously performing the duties of good Citizens and soldiers we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of Religion. To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good."

Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs (May 12, 1779); published in The Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XV, p. 55
"My ears hear with pleasure the other matters you mention. Congress will be glad to hear them too. You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."


John Adams

Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1812
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion."

Diary, 26 July 1796:
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity."


Thomas Jefferson

April 21, 1803 letter to Doctor Benjamin Rush
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence"

Letter to William Canby on September 18, 1813
"Of all the systems of morality, ancient and modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus."

Letter to William Short on October 31, 1819
"But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country, was Jesus of Nazareth."

Note: Thomas Jefferson loved Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospels so much that he took the time and effort to write a compilation of his favorite parts of the Gospels, which was published after his death and came to be known as The Jefferson Bible.



Benjamin Franklin

1790 letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see"

Proposals Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, 1749), p. 22.
"History will also afford the frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion, from its usefulness to the public; the advantage of a religious character among private persons; the mischiefs of superstition, &c. and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."



John Jay

1797 letter to clergyman Jedidiah Morse
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

"It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire."



John Quincy Adams

Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives, July 4, 1821
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected, in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

Mr. Magoo

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2011, 11:23:00 AM »
I am letting the founding fathers' words speak for themselves.

That is where I think you are wrong. You are only picking apart certain words from certain letters. I think we should look at their lives as a whole, including actions, words, other written works, what historians/authors/professors/etc say about it, etc. Re-posting the same letters does not prove your point.

 Washington was famous for changing his tone depending on who he was speaking to. Unless you admire Peter for denying Jesus, I doubt you would say that is a christian characteristic. It is also important to note that many of Washington letters posted online are fake. The Washington author I cited discusses this. So we must keep that in mind.

I granted you John Adams and John Jay.

Thomas Jefferson did not take his favorite parts of the Bible and make them into a separate bible. He took the parts of the Bible that he considered worthwhile, and none of this was doctrinal belief. If we take that at face value from a contemporary christian standpoint, it is A) Blasphemy B) Taking away and/or adding to the Bible (Which Revelation forbids). Then we look at his other life actions, such as founding a university centered around a library instead of a church (This was a major deal in that day). And look at the chaos surrounding the election of 1800. Everybody was calling Jefferson a nonbeliever. It was common knowledge in that day. Then look at him owning slaves and having affairs with his slaves. Don't let this fool you, this is a spit in the face of the teachings of Christ, right?

Next is Ben Franklin. Look at his autobiography which I think speaks volumes. The only part he talks about religion is how he hated church because it was boring. He talked about what gave him success in life. Was it the blessings of Jesus? No, it was hard work and determination. Then he talks about him trying to overcome his character defaults. Did he pray and ask for guidance by the holy spirit to give him strength? No he tried solving it on his own. From a contemporary christian standpoint, this is pride at it's highest. Then look at his behavior in France, etc etc.

The above addresses whether the founding fathers were Christian. If you want to take apart sentences and bold words to make claims, I could easily do the same for Bertrand Russell. He had a life verse from Exodus and he said everyone should have christian love, he complimented the teachings of Jesus, etc. Does this make him a Christan? Of course not, we have to look at his whole life, and then we see he was an agnostic.

You have not yet listed the principles from Christianity that this country was founded upon. If you want to keep making that point, please begin a list entitled "The Principles of Christianity that the United States was founded upon are as follows:" and list them one by one.

Man of Steel

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #155 on: July 06, 2011, 11:25:28 AM »
whoa whoa whoa. You were doing good up to that last point. Let us examine the country then. Blacks could be owned and beaten/raped at free will. Native Americans could be killed and raped at free will. Women had no rights. The founders violently overthrew the government. So in what way was the US simply rooted in Christianity?

By the way, it's an inside joke among political theorists when discussing Tocqueville, his section that says how great equality was in America when he wrote Democracy in America. Christianity prides itself on equality correct? (we are all sinners, we all need Jesus. The first shall be last, the last shall be first. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than rich man to get into heaven, etc etc). The US is rooted deeply in inequality.

Yeah I would agree there's a great deal of inequality in US even according to today's standards.  Sinful men and women that claim to be representatives of Christ have alongside their nonbelieving counterparts (in pursuit of establishing gov't) committed many horrific sins.  Rape, murder and inequality flies in the face of Christ's teaching.  Sad how quickly people can fall head first into their sinful ways yet claim Christ.   It's a shame and a terrible witness, but also a testament to how deeply we need Christ and how easily corrupted we all are when we take our eyes off of him.   As you mentioned, we even read of Christ's own disciples arguing amongst each other about who is the greatest among them.  Right there within Christ's circle of faithful men are lines of inequality drawn the moment Christ is not in front of them guiding their paths.  How weak we all are, how quickly we all forget.  I agree, men and women have strayed drastically off the path of righteousness, but that doesn't mean their initial intent wasn't rooted in Christ.

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #156 on: July 06, 2011, 11:59:20 AM »
That is where I think you are wrong. You are only picking apart certain words from certain letters. I think we should look at their lives as a whole, including actions, words, other written works, what historians/authors/professors/etc say about it, etc. Re-posting the same letters does not prove your point.

 Washington was famous for changing his tone depending on who he was speaking to. Unless you admire Peter for denying Jesus, I doubt you would say that is a christian characteristic. It is also important to note that many of Washington letters posted online are fake. The Washington author I cited discusses this. So we must keep that in mind.

I granted you John Adams and John Jay.

Thomas Jefferson did not take his favorite parts of the Bible and make them into a separate bible. He took the parts of the Bible that he considered worthwhile, and none of this was doctrinal belief. If we take that at face value from a contemporary christian standpoint, it is A) Blasphemy B) Taking away and/or adding to the Bible (Which Revelation forbids). Then we look at his other life actions, such as founding a university centered around a library instead of a church (This was a major deal in that day). And look at the chaos surrounding the election of 1800. Everybody was calling Jefferson a nonbeliever. It was common knowledge in that day. Then look at him owning slaves and having affairs with his slaves. Don't let this fool you, this is a spit in the face of the teachings of Christ, right?

Next is Ben Franklin. Look at his autobiography which I think speaks volumes. The only part he talks about religion is how he hated church because it was boring. He talked about what gave him success in life. Was it the blessings of Jesus? No, it was hard work and determination. Then he talks about him trying to overcome his character defaults. Did he pray and ask for guidance by the holy spirit to give him strength? No he tried solving it on his own. From a contemporary christian standpoint, this is pride at it's highest. Then look at his behavior in France, etc etc.

The above addresses whether the founding fathers were Christian. If you want to take apart sentences and bold words to make claims, I could easily do the same for Bertrand Russell. He had a life verse from Exodus and he said everyone should have christian love, he complimented the teachings of Jesus, etc. Does this make him a Christan? Of course not, we have to look at his whole life, and then we see he was an agnostic.

You have not yet listed the principles from Christianity that this country was founded upon. If you want to keep making that point, please begin a list entitled "The Principles of Christianity that the United States was founded upon are as follows:" and list them one by one.

The George Washington quotes that I posted are not fake and can easily be verified.   I have found quotes from the founding fathers on Christianity and Jesus that are "unconfirmed."  I have refrained from posting those.

I never said that Thomas Jefferson took "his favorite parts of the Bible and make them into a separate bible."  I said that Thomas Jefferson took his favorite parts from the Gospels.  That is only four books out of the entire Bible.  Jefferson did not mean for his book to be a Bible.  That is why he titled his work "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth."  It was meant as a tool to evangelize the Indians.  He did not change or add anything.

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels, Together with a Comparison of His Doctrines with Those of Others [Paperback]
Thomas Jefferson (Author)
"1902. In 1803, while overwhelmed with other business, Mr. Jefferson cut from the evangelists such passages as he believed would best present the ethical teaching of Jesus, and arranged them, on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. He called it The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, extracted from the account of his life and doctrines, as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; being an abridgment of the New Testament for the use of the Indians, unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehension."
http://www.amazon.com/Nazareth-Extracted-Textually-Comparison-Doctrines/dp/141790576X

That is not "Blasphemy" and it is not "Taking away and/or adding to the Bible."  Far from it.  It is actually following Jesus' command for Christians to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."  Matthew 28:19-20

I will let Benjamin Franklin's own words speak for themselves.  You bring up a great point about Peter denying Jesus.  The actions of a Christian do not always line up with the teachings of Jesus Christ.  It does not follow that Peter was not a Christian because he denied Christ, because he cut another man's ear off with a sword, etc.  The same applies to other Christians.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #157 on: July 06, 2011, 12:53:46 PM »
Yeah I would agree there's a great deal of inequality in US even according to today's standards.  Sinful men and women that claim to be representatives of Christ have alongside their nonbelieving counterparts (in pursuit of establishing gov't) committed many horrific sins.  Rape, murder and inequality flies in the face of Christ's teaching.  Sad how quickly people can fall head first into their sinful ways yet claim Christ.   It's a shame and a terrible witness, but also a testament to how deeply we need Christ and how easily corrupted we all are when we take our eyes off of him.   As you mentioned, we even read of Christ's own disciples arguing amongst each other about who is the greatest among them.  Right there within Christ's circle of faithful men are lines of inequality drawn the moment Christ is not in front of them guiding their paths.  How weak we all are, how quickly we all forget.  I agree, men and women have strayed drastically off the path of righteousness, but that doesn't mean their initial intent wasn't rooted in Christ.

you think very little of yourself and humans. We are flawed creatures, you cant even describe perfection because it loses duality which we require to describe something. Christ made many comments that i would consider immoral, i dont think he is the greatest moral teacher and i also dont think his advice was unique.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2011, 01:49:41 PM »
you think very little of yourself and humans. We are flawed creatures, you cant even describe perfection because it loses duality which we require to describe something. Christ made many comments that i would consider immoral, i dont think he is the greatest moral teacher and i also dont think his advice was unique.

I'm just a normal man....wife, kid, house, job.  Most importantly though I'm a believer in Christ.

Christ is that perfection and the basis for the comparative.....the divine bar so to speak. 

It's fine that you have an opinion as you've been granted to ability to choose.  I am curious as to which aspects of Christ's teaching or example would you classify as immoral?

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2011, 02:49:58 PM »
I'm just a normal man....wife, kid, house, job.  Most importantly though I'm a believer in Christ.

Christ is that perfection and the basis for the comparative.....the divine bar so to speak. 

It's fine that you have an opinion as you've been granted to ability to choose.  I am curious as to which aspects of Christ's teaching or example would you classify as immoral?

there are a bunch, love thy neighbor is immoral if taken literally. The one unforgivable sin is denying christ as your saviour is completely immoral. turn the other cheek.

these absolutes are immoral.

Man of Steel

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2011, 09:50:58 PM »
How is a literal interpretation of loving your neighbor immoral?  I can only see that being the case if you confuse love with lust, but genuine love towards another person.....well....I just don't see it.  

Let's take your next idea concerning the immorality of salvation through Christ.  Next I want you to think of the wealthiest home in your area.  Then consider going to that home and driving your car through the flowerbeds, peeing in the pool, pooping on the lawn, slapping the owner's children in the face, breaking a few windows, posting signs around the neighborhood about how much you hate the owners and then finishing everything off with setting some bushes on fire and writing graffitti on the side of the house.  Then knock on the door and ask the owner's if you can move in free of charge.  What do you think their reaction would be?  I'd assume they'd deny you entrance because they don't know you, because you destroyed portions of their property and because you disrespected them individually.  Most likely the owners would never forgive you, but Christ will.  He'll forgive every sin you've committed as he's already paid the price for your sins on the cross.  All we have to do is realize that Christ did die for us, that we recognize that he is the risen Lord and that we accept him as our savior.  Do this and the keys to his kingdom are yours regardless of what you may have done to his creation or how you disrespected him.  Choose to deny a relationship with Christ, deny the free gift of salvation, deny his payment for your sins and you simply can't be forgiven.  His perfect, loving sacrifice washed clean our sin and by acknowledging and accepting what he's done for you you are forgiven.  The only cheek to turn is your own.  

"In the end there will be only two kinds of people:  Those that look and God and say, 'Thy will be done,' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done.' "  C.S. Lewis

loco

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #161 on: July 07, 2011, 04:00:26 AM »
there are a bunch, love thy neighbor is immoral if taken literally. The one unforgivable sin is denying christ as your saviour is completely immoral. turn the other cheek.

these absolutes are immoral.

Denying Christ as your savior is not "the unforgivable sin."

People will not go to hell because they rejected Jesus.  People will go to hell to pay for their own many sins.  Jesus Christ, by his own words, is the only way out and the only way to salvation.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #162 on: July 07, 2011, 07:58:02 AM »
How is a literal interpretation of loving your neighbor immoral?  I can only see that being the case if you confuse love with lust, but genuine love towards another person.....well....I just don't see it.  

Let's take your next idea concerning the immorality of salvation through Christ.  Next I want you to think of the wealthiest home in your area.  Then consider going to that home and driving your car through the flowerbeds, peeing in the pool, pooping on the lawn, slapping the owner's children in the face, breaking a few windows, posting signs around the neighborhood about how much you hate the owners and then finishing everything off with setting some bushes on fire and writing graffitti on the side of the house.  Then knock on the door and ask the owner's if you can move in free of charge.  What do you think their reaction would be?  I'd assume they'd deny you entrance because they don't know you, because you destroyed portions of their property and because you disrespected them individually.  Most likely the owners would never forgive you, but Christ will.  He'll forgive every sin you've committed as he's already paid the price for your sins on the cross.  All we have to do is realize that Christ did die for us, that we recognize that he is the risen Lord and that we accept him as our savior.  Do this and the keys to his kingdom are yours regardless of what you may have done to his creation or how you disrespected him.  Choose to deny a relationship with Christ, deny the free gift of salvation, deny his payment for your sins and you simply can't be forgiven.  His perfect, loving sacrifice washed clean our sin and by acknowledging and accepting what he's done for you you are forgiven.  The only cheek to turn is your own.  

"In the end there will be only two kinds of people:  Those that look and God and say, 'Thy will be done,' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done.' "  C.S. Lewis

so if hitler lived next door, or was  neighbor you should love him? it dilutes love and is a slap in the face to love and the morals of such. I don't blindly love people because not all are deserving of love.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #163 on: July 07, 2011, 08:03:36 AM »
How is a literal interpretation of loving your neighbor immoral?  I can only see that being the case if you confuse love with lust, but genuine love towards another person.....well....I just don't see it.  

Let's take your next idea concerning the immorality of salvation through Christ.  Next I want you to think of the wealthiest home in your area.  Then consider going to that home and driving your car through the flowerbeds, peeing in the pool, pooping on the lawn, slapping the owner's children in the face, breaking a few windows, posting signs around the neighborhood about how much you hate the owners and then finishing everything off with setting some bushes on fire and writing graffitti on the side of the house.  Then knock on the door and ask the owner's if you can move in free of charge.  What do you think their reaction would be?  I'd assume they'd deny you entrance because they don't know you, because you destroyed portions of their property and because you disrespected them individually.  Most likely the owners would never forgive you, but Christ will.  He'll forgive every sin you've committed as he's already paid the price for your sins on the cross.  All we have to do is realize that Christ did die for us, that we recognize that he is the risen Lord and that we accept him as our savior.  Do this and the keys to his kingdom are yours regardless of what you may have done to his creation or how you disrespected him.  Choose to deny a relationship with Christ, deny the free gift of salvation, deny his payment for your sins and you simply can't be forgiven.  His perfect, loving sacrifice washed clean our sin and by acknowledging and accepting what he's done for you you are forgiven.  The only cheek to turn is your own.  

"In the end there will be only two kinds of people:  Those that look and God and say, 'Thy will be done,' and those that God looks at and says, 'Thy will be done.' "  C.S. Lewis

so what about all those who lived before christ? you want me to believe god being all knowing set up this game where innocent people would be sent to hell before christ, he sits there waiting all the while knowing what will happen. Then he decides the best way to correct his flawed creation (he knows what will happen mind you) is to kill everything in the flood, oh shit i got off track, is to send himself back to earth to be tortured and sacrificed by said creation.This then redeems man kind on a condition of worship and servitude. His method of sacrifice is the most immoral path to choose, there are an infinite number of ways that are better, less violent and more moral to "wash clean our sin"

your story doesn't appeal to logic and i dont see how its any better then all the other religions, you believe as you do because of the place you live.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2011, 09:24:02 AM »
so what about all those who lived before christ? you want me to believe god being all knowing set up this game where innocent people would be sent to hell before christ, he sits there waiting all the while knowing what will happen. Then he decides the best way to correct his flawed creation (he knows what will happen mind you) is to kill everything in the flood, oh shit i got off track, is to send himself back to earth to be tortured and sacrificed by said creation.This then redeems man kind on a condition of worship and servitude. His method of sacrifice is the most immoral path to choose, there are an infinite number of ways that are better, less violent and more moral to "wash clean our sin"

your story doesn't appeal to logic and i dont see how its any better then all the other religions, you believe as you do because of the place you live.

All those believers in God from the Old Testament or old covenant period were also saved by their relationship with God.  During those times regular periods of sacrifice (blood atonement via animal sacrifice) and sin offerings were given to cleanse one of sin.  God made the decision to send Christ to live on earth and become the perfect sacrifice for the cleansing of all mankinds sins if we choose to accept him as savior - this is the new covenant in the New Testament.  Those believers from the OT didn't die in vain spending eternity separated from God....they are absolutely with God in his heavenly kingdom, but today those that simply recognize Christ's sacrifice and accept him as Lord are saved from death and forgiven of their sin without the requirement of further OT sacrifice....Christ made the perfect, divine sacrifice that provides redemption for all.  The acts of sacrifice and blood atonement (both OT animal sacrifice and NT divine sacrifice) simply show how serious sin is to God and that sin must be paid for....Christ paid the price for all. The Lord God is absolutely worthy of worship and praise.  With respect, you deny God so you also deny his blessings in all its differing forms; therefore, you find no value or understanding in worship, cleansing of sin, etc.....hopefully your perspective will change in time.  God wants us to love him with everything in us.....just like he loves us with everything in him.

I believe the way I do because of the influences in my life and the wonderful works God has performed in my life.  I thank God that I live in the United States and have the freedom to worship as I choose.  I thank God for the blessing of Christian parents and other Christian family/friends that helped shape my walk.   Where I live is a blessing, but not the reason for my faith.  The folks next door grew up in the same areas I did and have no system of belief whatsoever yet some other folks from South America (and other countries)that lived in my community as a kid were devout believers before moving to the states.  Christianity developed out of the nation of Israel.  Abraham ("the friend of God") had a son named Isaac who had a son named Jacob who also had a personal relationship with God.  God chose to rename Jacob with the name Israel.  Israel had 12 sons that formed the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel in the OT.  This lead to the formal nations we find in the NT and the introduction of Christ that birthed Christianity in the NT (very summarized history mind you).  Christ's disciples and apostles then lead the missionary cause spreading the gospel to surrounding nations.....Paul really led the way in this earliest form of missionary work.  My story may not appeal to your sense of logic and you may not see how it's any better than all other religions and that's fine.  Just remember that tomorrow isn't promised to us.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2011, 09:29:55 AM »
so if hitler lived next door, or was  neighbor you should love him? it dilutes love and is a slap in the face to love and the morals of such. I don't blindly love people because not all are deserving of love.

Yes we should do our best to love Hitler, Osama bin Laden, OJ Simpson, the guy that gave you the finger in traffic, the woman that turned you down when you asked her out, etc...again, our limited capacity for love also shows how great God's love and grace is and how desperately we need him in our lives.  On our own we don't love each other sufficiently and we certainly aren't worthy of God's love and grace as all we've done is disrespect him and his creation; still, he loves us.  God's love for someone like OJ Simpson is infinitely greater than the love I have for my wife and daughter....that's amazing.  

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2011, 12:34:07 PM »
All those believers in God from the Old Testament or old covenant period were also saved by their relationship with God.  During those times regular periods of sacrifice (blood atonement via animal sacrifice) and sin offerings were given to cleanse one of sin.  God made the decision to send Christ to live on earth and become the perfect sacrifice for the cleansing of all mankinds sins if we choose to accept him as savior - this is the new covenant in the New Testament.  Those believers from the OT didn't die in vain spending eternity separated from God....they are absolutely with God in his heavenly kingdom, but today those that simply recognize Christ's sacrifice and accept him as Lord are saved from death and forgiven of their sin without the requirement of further OT sacrifice....Christ made the perfect, divine sacrifice that provides redemption for all.  The acts of sacrifice and blood atonement (both OT animal sacrifice and NT divine sacrifice) simply show how serious sin is to God and that sin must be paid for....Christ paid the price for all. The Lord God is absolutely worthy of worship and praise.  With respect, you deny God so you also deny his blessings in all its differing forms; therefore, you find no value or understanding in worship, cleansing of sin, etc.....hopefully your perspective will change in time.  God wants us to love him with everything in us.....just like he loves us with everything in him.

I believe the way I do because of the influences in my life and the wonderful works God has performed in my life.  I thank God that I live in the United States and have the freedom to worship as I choose.  I thank God for the blessing of Christian parents and other Christian family/friends that helped shape my walk.   Where I live is a blessing, but not the reason for my faith.  The folks next door grew up in the same areas I did and have no system of belief whatsoever yet some other folks from South America (and other countries)that lived in my community as a kid were devout believers before moving to the states.  Christianity developed out of the nation of Israel.  Abraham ("the friend of God") had a son named Isaac who had a son named Jacob who also had a personal relationship with God.  God chose to rename Jacob with the name Israel.  Israel had 12 sons that formed the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel in the OT.  This lead to the formal nations we find in the NT and the introduction of Christ that birthed Christianity in the NT (very summarized history mind you).  Christ's disciples and apostles then lead the missionary cause spreading the gospel to surrounding nations.....Paul really led the way in this earliest form of missionary work.  My story may not appeal to your sense of logic and you may not see how it's any better than all other religions and that's fine.  Just remember that tomorrow isn't promised to us.

seriously? animal sacrifice for atonement? what does that even do? seriously i rape and murder and then murder and innocent animal and that somehow gives one forgiveness? this is the most hideous logic ive ever seen. Your god is not something i admire.

Isnt it strange how groups like scientology are ridiculed now only because of the period of time they choose to develop there religion. Its not a stretch and logical to assume that the monotheistic relgions developed similarly with none offering anything over the other in terms of truth as they are all foreign to logic and morality.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2011, 12:38:50 PM »
Yes we should do our best to love Hitler, Osama bin Laden, OJ Simpson, the guy that gave you the finger in traffic, the woman that turned you down when you asked her out, etc...again, our limited capacity for love also shows how great God's love and grace is and how desperately we need him in our lives.  On our own we don't love each other sufficiently and we certainly aren't worthy of God's love and grace as all we've done is disrespect him and his creation; still, he loves us.  God's love for someone like OJ Simpson is infinitely greater than the love I have for my wife and daughter....that's amazing.  

no we shouldn't it is immoral. I would not love someone who murdered my family, raped my daughter and ruined my life, they do not deserve my love. Unconditional love makes it meaningless, your love of hitler is a slap in the face to all those that died in the holocaust, its actually shameful that because of your beliefs you agree with immoral propositions. Loving people who do not deserve it dilutes love and makes the one emergent phenomenon in my opinion void.

turning the other cheek also is immoral in all situations, there are no moral absolutes. If you always turn the other cheek people will do horrible atrocities, it is moral to stand for life, righteousness and truth and to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #168 on: July 07, 2011, 01:03:55 PM »
seriously? animal sacrifice for atonement? what does that even do? seriously i rape and murder and then murder and innocent animal and that somehow gives one forgiveness? this is the most hideous logic ive ever seen. Your god is not something i admire.

Isnt it strange how groups like scientology are ridiculed now only because of the period of time they choose to develop there religion. Its not a stretch and logical to assume that the monotheistic relgions developed similarly with none offering anything over the other in terms of truth as they are all foreign to logic and morality.

seriously? animal sacrifice for atonement? what does that even do? seriously i rape and murder and then murder and innocent animal and that somehow gives one forgiveness? this is the most hideous logic ive ever seen. Your god is not something i admire.

Isnt it strange how groups like scientology are ridiculed now only because of the period of time they choose to develop there religion. Its not a stretch and logical to assume that the monotheistic relgions developed similarly with none offering anything over the other in terms of truth as they are all foreign to logic and morality.

Well, I think I should clarify a bit.  The act of animal sacrifice in and of itself didn't cleanse us of the sin, but was more of a temporary covering for sin until Christ came and died for sins past, present and future.  The shedding of a lamb's blood in the OT served as covering until the divine lamb who is worthy died for all.  Yes they took the lives of cute sheep, goats and innocent bulls.  That's fine if you don't admire or love God.  I'm just giving a general taste of scripture.  You have a genuine problem with God then take it up with him openly and honestly.  Open your heart to him and see if he responds or not.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #169 on: July 07, 2011, 02:17:24 PM »
no we shouldn't it is immoral. I would not love someone who murdered my family, raped my daughter and ruined my life, they do not deserve my love. Unconditional love makes it meaningless, your love of hitler is a slap in the face to all those that died in the holocaust, its actually shameful that because of your beliefs you agree with immoral propositions. Loving people who do not deserve it dilutes love and makes the one emergent phenomenon in my opinion void.

turning the other cheek also is immoral in all situations, there are no moral absolutes. If you always turn the other cheek people will do horrible atrocities, it is moral to stand for life, righteousness and truth and to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

AHAHAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!  "your love of hitler"

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #170 on: July 07, 2011, 02:29:37 PM »
AHAHAAAHAHAHAHAH!!!  "your love of hitler"

well do you love hitler or not? do you love kim jong ill?


why the hell would sacrificing innocent animals absolve a human of wrong doings in the eyes of god. Its sounds more like a tribal, nomadic, bronze age belief then anything a perfect, all-knowing being would do,doesn't it? i mean i assume god is smarter then me, and logic only goes one way such that no amount of ill logic can make something rational. Therefore if i cannot rationally justify this belief then it makes sense to conclude a more logical being cannot make it rational either. If i plotted logic on a graph once we arrive at 0 or no logic, you cannot increase the value by going to -1. This is what you would have me believe. Sacrificing animals for human wrong doings makes no sense, how could it? the animal had nothing to do with me raping another, how does it paying the ultimate sacrifice absolve me? very immoral to say the least and completely irrational.

you must realize faith is irrational right? its a belief without evidence which is the definition of irrational.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #171 on: July 07, 2011, 03:09:49 PM »
well do you love hitler or not? do you love kim jong ill?


why the hell would sacrificing innocent animals absolve a human of wrong doings in the eyes of god. Its sounds more like a tribal, nomadic, bronze age belief then anything a perfect, all-knowing being would do,doesn't it? i mean i assume god is smarter then me, and logic only goes one way such that no amount of ill logic can make something rational. Therefore if i cannot rationally justify this belief then it makes sense to conclude a more logical being cannot make it rational either. If i plotted logic on a graph once we arrive at 0 or no logic, you cannot increase the value by going to -1. This is what you would have me believe. Sacrificing animals for human wrong doings makes no sense, how could it? the animal had nothing to do with me raping another, how does it paying the ultimate sacrifice absolve me? very immoral to say the least and completely irrational.

you must realize faith is irrational right? its a belief without evidence which is the definition of irrational.

You can start another thread with this link to continue the discussion if you want, but I think you are starting to hint around this logic problem. I found the following article interesting (about the logic and Problem of Evil)

http://www.iep.utm.edu/evil-log/

I might start another thread for this logic problem when I have more time.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #172 on: July 07, 2011, 03:44:16 PM »
well do you love hitler or not? do you love kim jong ill?


why the hell would sacrificing innocent animals absolve a human of wrong doings in the eyes of god. Its sounds more like a tribal, nomadic, bronze age belief then anything a perfect, all-knowing being would do,doesn't it? i mean i assume god is smarter then me, and logic only goes one way such that no amount of ill logic can make something rational. Therefore if i cannot rationally justify this belief then it makes sense to conclude a more logical being cannot make it rational either. If i plotted logic on a graph once we arrive at 0 or no logic, you cannot increase the value by going to -1. This is what you would have me believe. Sacrificing animals for human wrong doings makes no sense, how could it? the animal had nothing to do with me raping another, how does it paying the ultimate sacrifice absolve me? very immoral to say the least and completely irrational.

you must realize faith is irrational right? its a belief without evidence which is the definition of irrational.

Do we really have to break down the varying forms of love and define and categorize them? I don't think we need those extremes, but atheists and agnostics are often in the business of definition.  That said, do I treat others that I'm not close to (both tyrants and non-tryrants) with the same amount of love and compassion I show my close family and friends?  No.  Will I do my best to treat others the way I would like to be treated in accordance with God's will?  Yes.  Will I pray for a tyrant's soul?  Yes.  Will I show love and compassion in such a way that supports a tyrant's evil cause?  No.  Do I support the punishment of their crimes?  Yes.  Do I wish them dead?  No.  Do I wish them reconciled with Christ?  Yes.  Love, compassion and forgiveness aren't any easy business.  I deal with folks on this site all the time that ridicule and insult me from sun up to sun down and I do my very best not to return insults.  I just absorb them or let them roll off.  I have no expectation that their ridicule or insults will stop, but I'll do my best to express the love of Christ to both those that hate me, those that love me and those that terrorize the world.  My wish for others that don't believe is that they can come to know the love of Christ....regardless of how poorly they've treated me.

Now plotting the rationality of God on a graph.....well....I have nothing to add on that one.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #173 on: July 07, 2011, 04:57:45 PM »
Do we really have to break down the varying forms of love and define and categorize them? I don't think we need those extremes, but atheists and agnostics are often in the business of definition.  That said, do I treat others that I'm not close to (both tyrants and non-tryrants) with the same amount of love and compassion I show my close family and friends?  No.  Will I do my best to treat others the way I would like to be treated in accordance with God's will?  Yes.  Will I pray for a tyrant's soul?  Yes.  Will I show love and compassion in such a way that supports a tyrant's evil cause?  No.  Do I support the punishment of their crimes?  Yes.  Do I wish them dead?  No.  Do I wish them reconciled with Christ?  Yes.  Love, compassion and forgiveness aren't any easy business.  I deal with folks on this site all the time that ridicule and insult me from sun up to sun down and I do my very best not to return insults.  I just absorb them or let them roll off.  I have no expectation that their ridicule or insults will stop, but I'll do my best to express the love of Christ to both those that hate me, those that love me and those that terrorize the world.  My wish for others that don't believe is that they can come to know the love of Christ....regardless of how poorly they've treated me.

Now plotting the rationality of God on a graph.....well....I have nothing to add on that one.

i to have compassion, but it has limits. Why does hitler deserve any  compassion? i cant think of a logical reason why he should receive any?

your method of allowing those to ridicule you and not responding is the same thing the jews did and it lead to atrocity and misery for them. It is not always best to turn the other cheek and respond with love. God doesn't even agree with you, or jesus. He resorted to killing everyone in a worldwide flood hardly turning the other cheek and showing love. He punishes people, hardly turning the other cheek, nor is he always expressing love, in fact ordering the death of another is the opposite of love. Unless of course god has a different form of love that we can't comprehend, if that is the case what is the point.

non-violent protest is needed in many cases as gandhi did. Hardly turning the other cheek, instead he fought back in a moral manner and produced results much better then if he sat silently and expressed love.

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Re: Christian Nation
« Reply #174 on: July 08, 2011, 05:22:32 AM »
i to have compassion, but it has limits. Why does hitler deserve any  compassion? i cant think of a logical reason why he should receive any?

your method of allowing those to ridicule you and not responding is the same thing the jews did and it lead to atrocity and misery for them. It is not always best to turn the other cheek and respond with love. God doesn't even agree with you, or jesus. He resorted to killing everyone in a worldwide flood hardly turning the other cheek and showing love. He punishes people, hardly turning the other cheek, nor is he always expressing love, in fact ordering the death of another is the opposite of love. Unless of course god has a different form of love that we can't comprehend, if that is the case what is the point.

non-violent protest is needed in many cases as gandhi did. Hardly turning the other cheek, instead he fought back in a moral manner and produced results much better then if he sat silently and expressed love.

Ummmm, didn't God give them 120 years or so to repent, before the Flood hit?

When did "turning the other cheek" translate into letting sin go perpetually unpunished?

"Ordering the death is the opposite of love"? I beg to differ, unless you count love as letting people oppress and brutalize Israel for centuries on end (ala the Amalekites) without consequence.