There's Only One Bible

[OTHstrong]

Oh, in that case you're right.

On the other hand I don't know of anyone, myself included, who believe in Christianity because it's in a book. You are putting the cart before the horse, my friend. We believe in God first. We learn about the life of Jesus and morality from the Bible.
Now, and this is a more salient point and often trivialized, we learn right from wrong; good and bad, from the Bible and Christianity. And I know how this initially sounds. Without God, with a set of rules to live by, a system of ethics outside of yourself, then morality simply because a matter of personal opinion based mostly on self interest and what you can safely get away with.

If you ask me why stealing is wrong and I say that it's wrong because it says so in the Bible. I sound simplistic. But if I ask an atheist why stealing is wrong what would they say? Because it's wrong? Why? Because it hurts someone else? So what? That's a matter of compassion and sensitivity and not right and wrong.  Because I don't want anybody to steal from me? Again, so what? Why should you believe that? If you're a sales clerk at Sears and you are giving me 5 dollars in change and give me 4 ones and a $20 bill why should I return the $20? If you see a hot chick why not rape her if you can get away with it? Notice how when the law breaks down and anarchy ensues, such as in times of war; men, who would never act otherwise, suddenly become rapist.

I think it is very important to have a value system outside of yourself. A set of rules dictating moral behavior that you answer to and are held accountable for. Without that then morality is just whatever you say it is. And I don't trust human nature.

BTW, this is NOT an argument for the existence of God. Just because one does not like the consequences of living in a Godless universe, one where there is not objective rules for morality and clearly defined notions of right and wrong, doesn't argue for God's existence.

I am not saying that's the way I am thinking, I am saying that atheist accuse us of thinking this way. I was a Christian and accepted Jesus before I ever read the Bible. The only way to describe God for me is the way an atheist believes he loves his daughter...now if I wanted to play devil's advocate I would tell them I don't believe he or she loves their daughter, and technically there would be no possible way they could prove that to me. I am a Christian and I do believe the Bible has no errors, but I don't believe the Bible or any book for that matter can prove the existance of God.

[Overload]

Religion is just a method to control people.

If people cannot see this, I am deeply sorry.

I have no issues with religious people, just don't preach to me about your fantasy world and we are straight.

200,000 different religions on this planet and they all claim to be "the one"...

Choose wisely...

[OTHstrong]

Religion is just a method to control people.

If people cannot see this, I am deeply sorry.

I have no issues with religious people, just don't preach to me about your fantasy world and we are straight.

200,000 different religions on this planet and they all claim to be "the one"...

Choose wisely...

Just a little exaggeration 

[John O]

Religion is just a method to control people.


I have no issues with religious people, just don't preach to me about your fantasy world and we are straight.

I have no issues with non-religious people, Just don't tell me why you think i'm being controled and we are straight.

[OTHstrong]

I have no issues with non-religious people, Just don't tell me why you think i'm being controled and we are straight.

    That was a good one rotfl...lol
I don't know why I found that so funny....call me weird. lol

[pellius]

I am not saying that's the way I am thinking, I am saying that atheist accuse us of thinking this way. I was a Christian and accepted Jesus before I ever read the Bible. The only way to describe God for me is the way an atheist believes he loves his daughter...now if I wanted to play devil's advocate I would tell them I don't believe he or she loves their daughter, and technically there would be no possible way they could prove that to me. I am a Christian and I do believe the Bible has no errors, but I don't believe the Bible or any book for that matter can prove the existance of God.

Hah! It seems I keep missing your deeper point. Much is loss with internet banter. You seem like a very thoughtful person and it would be a pleasure if we could sit down in person and discuss the great issues of life.
 

[pellius]

Religion is just a method to control people.

If people cannot see this, I am deeply sorry.

I have no issues with religious people, just don't preach to me about your fantasy world and we are straight.

200,000 different religions on this planet and they all claim to be "the one"...

Choose wisely...

Why is a belief system, one which one is free to join or not, and has a set of rules of conduct, self-imposed limitations and restraints on one's behavior just a means to control people?
Say the Pope declared that before any one is allowed to enter church on Sunday's they are required to a pay a $20 entrance fee or be turned away. And such a rule would be strictly enforce. You will see how much "control" the Pope has over "his people."

Do you believe in anything? Do you belong to any group with shared beliefs? NRA? PETA? Labor Union? MADD? Plan Parenthood?  Do you belong to any political party? Did you ever serve in the military? Do you have a job where you work for a company?

In Christianity, one is not kidnapped and forced to be a Christian? Practicing Christians are Christians because they actually believe in Christianity and it's set of values. Much like being a Democrat or Republican.

Again it's similar to the notion that when a religious person shares his beliefs, i.e., why he believes abortion is immoral, why is opposed to same sex marriage, why he believes in the power of prayer, why evil must be fought and overcome and not simply co-exist (difference between Carter - Detente and Reagan - Evil Empire). When those ideas are expressed it's called indoctrination. When secular ideas such as same sex marriage, LAWS REQUIRING inclusion of gays and transgender in history books, removing any references to God in our government, no difference in the basic nature of men and women but simply societal bias....
that's called education.

[pellius]

I want to edit my last posts. Labor Unions are a way to control people. You are forced to join if you want your job, they demand payment, and they support political causes that you may not agree with.

[pellius]

I have no issues with non-religious people, Just don't tell me why you think i'm being controled and we are straight.

LOL! It rarely works the other way around. People seem to ignore the fact that they are far, far more pestered by secular groups and causes than they are religious groups. Just today going into a grocery store I was stopped and asked to sign a petition for some animal rights group (I didn't stay for the details) and I'm constantly hit up for money for some homeless organization or charity group.

With the exception of those Hare Krishnas (though it hasn't happened in years) I've never been approached and asked for money by any religious organization.

[Overload]

I have no issues with non-religious people, Just don't tell me why you think i'm being controled and we are straight.

I'm not, in fact not even close. I never even mentioned "you" anywhere. You are upset and my comment was taken as a personal insult, when it was just a statement.

I made a statement that "religion" is a "method" to control people, which is 100% true for the same reasons Pellius mentioned. Anything can be a method of control, i just find religion an easy method to remove that serves no purpose in my life.

I have no will to argue this point, but Christians ask for money every time the plate is passed around.

Believe and live as you wish, nobody is stopping you and I from living however we want.

[Agnostic007]

LOL! It rarely works the other way around. People seem to ignore the fact that they are far, far more pestered by secular groups and causes than they are religious groups. Just today going into a grocery store I was stopped and asked to sign a petition for some animal rights group (I didn't stay for the details) and I'm constantly hit up for money for some homeless organization or charity group.

With the exception of those Hare Krishnas (though it hasn't happened in years) I've never been approached and asked for money by any religious organization.

Can't recall a time I was imposed upon at graduation, promotion ceremony, government proceedings by secular causes but can recall many a time I've had to wait while Christians violated Jesus' directions on how to pray to him/god. And Salvation Army is Religious based FYI  

[pellius]

I'm not, in fact not even close. I never even mentioned "you" anywhere. You are upset and my comment was taken as a personal insult, when it was just a statement.

I made a statement that "religion" is a "method" to control people, which is 100% true for the same reasons Pellius mentioned. Anything can be a method of control, i just find religion an easy method to remove that serves no purpose in my life.

I have no will to argue this point, but Christians ask for money every time the plate is passed around.

Believe and live as you wish, nobody is stopping you and I from living however we want.

It's one thing to have a "plate passed around" while in church. I mean, the building, maintenance, a/c, property that you choose to attend doesn't come free. It's quite another to be hit up for funds while walking into a grocery store to support bums who don't want to work for a living.

But I glad you clarified, and I'm not being sarcastic, that there are other methods to control you (though I don't believe that because you have a choice to join any group or organization) but that religion specifically serves no purpose for you.

Also, I find more opposition to religious people practicing their faith than people of faith opposing non believers from practicing their beliefs. "One nation under God" is simply in our pledge. We swear on the Bible. Just let it go. (I don't mean you specifically).

[tbombz]

Now, and this is a more salient point and often trivialized, we learn right from wrong; good and bad, from the Bible and Christianity. And I know how this initially sounds. Without God, with a set of rules to live by, a system of ethics outside of yourself, then morality simply because a matter of personal opinion based mostly on self interest and what you can safely get away with.

If you ask me why stealing is wrong and I say that it's wrong because it says so in the Bible. I sound simplistic. But if I ask an atheist why stealing is wrong what would they say? Because it's wrong? Why? Because it hurts someone else? So what? That's a matter of compassion and sensitivity and not right and wrong. 

I think it is very important to have a value system outside of yourself. A set of rules dictating moral behavior that you answer to and are held accountable for. Without that then morality is just whatever you say it is. And I don't trust human nature.

you dont have to have a set of guidelines outside of yourself so long as your a person with mature emotional response, you could rely on those to guide your morals. in fact it would probably be more accurate as situations can be extraordinary and fall outside or written codes.

[OTHstrong]

you dont have to have a set of guidelines outside of yourself so long as your a person with mature emotional response, you could rely on those to guide your morals. in fact it would probably be more accurate as situations can be extraordinary and fall outside or written codes.

No way, no way, no way,  history proves what you say doesn't work. You only think it works cause if you're born in a civilized modern society like today in a democratic nation then ya it works.....only because the nation has taken thousands of years of trial and error to modernize, being born in this environment and living in it your whole life has shaped your emotional response into rational thinking, but if you would be born in ancient days, say 8Th century BC in Assyria when King Tiglath Piliser was running the show and the main source of entertainment in Nineveh would be public flaying of human beings instead of the super bowl,... your emotional response would be barbaric, savage, average human behaviour would be nothing short of what we consider psychotic,
Humans need outside guideline, for sure, history has proved it.

[OTHstrong]

Hah! It seems I keep missing your deeper point. Much is loss with internet banter. You seem like a very thoughtful person and it would be a pleasure if we could sit down in person and discuss the great issues of life.
 

Why thank you Pellius

[pellius]

Can't recall a time I was imposed upon at graduation, promotion ceremony, government proceedings by secular causes but can recall many a time I've had to wait while Christians violated Jesus' directions on how to pray to him/god. And Salvation Army is Religious based FYI  

Come on. Now you're stretching. Those are formal ceremonies and as much as many, perhaps even you don't want to admit it and resent it, we are a Christian nation. Be fair.

We were talking about people pushing their beliefs in everyday life. And secular, not anti-religious, notions are far more prevalent in our universities.

We're going to pray before ball games, graduations, government functions and dedications -- like we always have. Well, at least until the secular extremist manage to remove all references to God.

[pellius]

you dont have to have a set of guidelines outside of yourself so long as your a person with mature emotional response, you could rely on those to guide your morals. in fact it would probably be more accurate as situations can be extraordinary and fall outside or written codes.

Which why you are the type of person you are. It's the world according to Tbombz. Relying on feelings and emotions. Generation nothingingness personified. You are your own god.

And may he have mercy on your soul.

[garebear]

I'm too busy tickling your mother's tonsils with my pecker.

His mom has ticklish tonsils?

[tbombz]

No way, no way, no way,  history proves what you say doesn't work. You only think it works cause if you're born in a civilized modern society like today in a democratic nation then ya it works.....only because the nation has taken thousands of years of trial and error to modernize, being born in this environment and living in it your whole life has shaped your emotional response into rational thinking, but if you would be born in ancient days, say 8Th century BC in Assyria when King Tiglath Piliser was running the show and the main source of entertainment in Nineveh would be public flaying of human beings instead of the super bowl,... your emotional response would be barbaric, savage, average human behaviour would be nothing short of what we consider psychotic,
Humans need outside guideline, for sure, history has proved it.

notice i said "mature emotional response". barbarism would fall outside of that.

Which why you are the type of person you are. It's the world according to Tbombz. Relying on feelings and emotions. Generation nothingingness personified. You are your own god.

And may he have mercy on your soul.

im actually more of a rational thinker than an emotional one. ive had to teach myself to have proper emotional responses. and i dont get it right all the time.  but one who always gets the right emotional response can trust it to be the most moral action. it might be helpful to remember that we are all bound to the limitations of our ignorances, and because of this "mature" not only denounces logical correctness in choosing the most moral action but knowledge of all facts pertaining to such judgement. because we cant always know all the facts, sometimes a mature reaction can be the wrong reaction. its important to point out that in this rare occuronce the person could not be blamed for not making the most moral decision because ignorance is never the fault of ones own self. lazy yes, ignorant no.

[OTHstrong]

notice i said "mature emotional response". barbarism would fall outside of that.

 im actually more of a rational thinker than an emotional one. ive had to teach myself to have proper emotional responses. and i dont get it right all the time.  but one who always gets the right emotional response can trust it to be the most moral action. it might be helpful to remember that we are all bound to the limitations of our ignorances, and because of this "mature" not only denounces logical correctness in choosing the most moral action but knowledge of all facts pertaining to such judgement. because we cant always know all the facts, sometimes a mature reaction can be the wrong reaction. its important to point out that in this rare occuronce the person could not be blamed for not making the most moral decision because ignorance is never the fault of ones own self. lazy yes, ignorant no.

Once again you need a guidline to know what maturity is in the responder... your maturity is not the same as mine. Furthemore maturity can only come throw outside influences that had to begin somewhere. Relying on yourself as an individual free of any type of moral guidline throughout the globe would bring utter chaos

[pellius]

notice i said "mature emotional response". barbarism would fall outside of that.

 im actually more of a rational thinker than an emotional one. ive had to teach myself to have proper emotional responses. and i dont get it right all the time.  but one who always gets the right emotional response can trust it to be the most moral action. it might be helpful to remember that we are all bound to the limitations of our ignorances, and because of this "mature" not only denounces logical correctness in choosing the most moral action but knowledge of all facts pertaining to such judgement. because we cant always know all the facts, sometimes a mature reaction can be the wrong reaction. its important to point out that in this rare occuronce the person could not be blamed for not making the most moral decision because ignorance is never the fault of ones own self. lazy yes, ignorant no.

You trust human nature. I don't. You trust your own nature. I really don't. Therefore, I believe many simply cannot give a true, honest, objective evaluation of themselves, their motives and responses to events, incidences, and circumstances that occur in their lives. I truly doubt a Pol Pot or Stalin woke up every morning and said, "How can I make the world a more wicked place? How can I be more of a monster? How many innocent people will I have killed."

It is no surprise that you, a bisexual recreational drug user that even posts videos of himself stoned out of his mind and feels the need to describe in intimate detail his homosexual encounters to complete strangers, considers himself to be a person of a rational nature. A learned, reasoned, well thought out individual who deep down considers himself a bit (if not a lot) above the pack. Someone who is little bit special than the average schmoe. What else is a self absorbed, self-indulgent, narcissistic, hedonist to think?   

Whether ignorance of other reasons or excuses one uses to justify a behavior and relieve a person of fault it doesn't relieve him of responsibility. If someone is raised in a horrible violent household of course it is not his fault and it is not hard to see why he would turn out to be a horrible violent human being. But he is still responsible for his actions.

[Agnostic007]

You trust human nature. I don't. You trust your own nature. I really don't. Therefore, I believe many simply cannot give a true, honest, objective evaluation of themselves, their motives and responses to events, incidences, and circumstances that occur in their lives. I truly doubt a Pol Pot or Stalin woke up every morning and said, "How can I make the world a more wicked place? How can I be more of a monster? How many innocent people will I have killed."

It is no surprise that you, a bisexual recreational drug user that even posts videos of himself stoned out of his mind and feels the need to describe in intimate detail his homosexual encounters to complete strangers, considers himself to be a person of a rational nature. A learned, reasoned, well thought out individual who deep down considers himself a bit (if not a lot) above the pack. Someone who is little bit special than the average schmoe. What else is a self absorbed, self-indulgent, narcissistic, hedonist to think?   

Whether ignorance of other reasons or excuses one uses to justify a behavior and relieve a person of fault it doesn't relieve him of responsibility. If someone is raised in a horrible violent household of course it is not his fault and it is not hard to see why he would turn out to be a horrible violent human being. But he is still responsible for his actions.

damn.... 

[OTHstrong]

You trust human nature. I don't. You trust your own nature. I really don't. Therefore, I believe many simply cannot give a true, honest, objective evaluation of themselves, their motives and responses to events, incidences, and circumstances that occur in their lives. I truly doubt a Pol Pot or Stalin woke up every morning and said, "How can I make the world a more wicked place? How can I be more of a monster? How many innocent people will I have killed."

It is no surprise that you, a bisexual recreational drug user that even posts videos of himself stoned out of his mind and feels the need to describe in intimate detail his homosexual encounters to complete strangers, considers himself to be a person of a rational nature. A learned, reasoned, well thought out individual who deep down considers himself a bit (if not a lot) above the pack. Someone who is little bit special than the average schmoe. What else is a self absorbed, self-indulgent, narcissistic, hedonist to think?   

Whether ignorance of other reasons or excuses one uses to justify a behavior and relieve a person of fault it doesn't relieve him of responsibility. If someone is raised in a horrible violent household of course it is not his fault and it is not hard to see why he would turn out to be a horrible violent human being. But he is still responsible for his actions.

even though this post sounds insulting, Pellius has a strong point, Pellius is cold 

Sorry Tbombs don't mean to gang up on you, I do consider you intelligent, but if I recall correctly several years back someone pissed you off....and you replied with something that you were going to kill their mom, dad and torture them and some more stuff that would make charlse manson's thoughts look like a saint..one of the craziest threats I ever read....surley you can't trust a mine that wonders off every now and then?

[pellius]

even though this post sounds insulting, Pellius has a strong point, Pellius is cold 

Sorry Tbombs don't mean to gang up on you, I do consider you intelligent, but if I recall correctly several years back someone pissed you off....and you replied with something that you were going to kill their mom, dad and torture them and some more stuff that would make charlse manson's thoughts look like a saint..one of the craziest threats I ever read....surley you can't trust a mine that wonders off every now and then?

Tbombz and myself have a past. We routinely trade insults. We actually moderate ourselves and practice a bit of self restraint because we are on another board and not the wild West Thunder Dome that is the G&O.

[Agnostic007]

It was an impressive spanking.. to say the least..