Author Topic: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer  (Read 3063 times)

blacken700

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Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« on: July 27, 2011, 09:00:40 AM »

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 09:11:06 AM »
? ? ? 


Why should they sacrifice anything?   Its the govt that needs to sacrifice and shrink since its the one spending the money! 


Additionally, what are the 50% who pay nothing sarificing? 


WTF is wrong with you? 

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 09:13:13 AM »
so the middle class has to pay everything

WTF is wrong with you? 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 09:15:46 AM »
so the middle class has to pay everything

WTF is wrong with you? 

The middle class don't pay everything.  The top 1% pay 38% of the incom tax and the bottom 50% pay nothing at all. 

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 09:31:36 AM »
Yes, 47% of Households Owe No Taxes. Look Closer.
By DAVID LEONHARDT
Published: April 13, 2010
 
        



 
That’s the portion of American households that owe no income tax for 2009. The number is up from 38 percent in 2007, and it has become a popular talking point on cable television and talk radio. With Tax Day coming on Thursday, 47 percent has become shorthand for the notion that the wealthy face a much higher tax burden than they once did while growing numbers of Americans are effectively on the dole.

Neither one of those ideas is true. They rely on a cleverly selective reading of the facts. So does the 47 percent number.

Given that taxes are likely to be one of the big political issues of the next few years — and maybe the biggest one — it’s worth understanding who really pays what in taxes. Once you do, you can get a sense for our country’s fiscal options. How, in other words, will we be able to close the huge looming gap between the taxes we are scheduled to pay and the services we are scheduled to receive?

The answer is that tax rates almost certainly have to rise more on the affluent than on other groups. Over the last 30 years, rates have fallen more for the wealthy, and especially the very wealthy, than for any other group. At the same time, their incomes have soared, and the incomes of most workers have grown only moderately faster than inflation.

So a much greater share of income is now concentrated at the top of distribution, while each dollar there is taxed less than it once was. It’s true that raising taxes on the rich alone can’t come close to solving the long-term budget problem. The deficit is simply too big. But if taxes are not increased for the wealthy, the country will be left with two options.

It will have to raise taxes even more than it otherwise would on everybody else. Or it will have to find deep cuts in Medicare, Social Security, military spending and the other large (generally popular) federal programs.

All the attention being showered on “47 percent” is ultimately a distraction from that reality.

The 47 percent number is not wrong. The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.

But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.

Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes. The number 10 is obviously a lot smaller than 47.

The reason is that poor families generally pay more in payroll taxes than they receive through benefits like the Earned Income Tax Credit. It’s not just poor families for whom the payroll tax is a big deal, either. About three-quarters of all American households pay more in payroll taxes, which go toward Medicare and Social Security, than in income taxes.

Focusing on the statistical middle class — the middle 20 percent of households, as ranked by income — underlines this point. Households in this group made $35,400 to $52,100 in 2006, the last year for which the Congressional Budget Office has released data. That would describe a household with one full-time worker earning about $17 to $25 an hour. Such hourly pay is typical for firefighters, preschool teachers, computer support specialists, farmers, members of the clergy, mail carriers, secretaries and truck drivers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Taking into account both taxes and tax credits, the average household in this group paid a total income tax rate of just 3 percent. A good number of people, in fact, paid no net income taxes. They are among the alleged free riders.

But the picture starts to change when you look not just at income taxes but at all taxes. This average household would have paid 0.8 percent of its income in corporate taxes (through the stocks it owned), 0.9 percent in gas and other federal excise taxes, and 9.5 percent in payroll taxes. Add these up, and the family’s total federal tax rate was 14.2 percent.

I realize that it’s possible to argue that payroll taxes should be excluded from the discussion because they pay for benefits — Social Security and Medicare — that people receive on the back end. But that argument doesn’t seem very persuasive.

Why? People do not receive benefits equal to the payroll taxes they paid. Those who die at age 70 will receive much less in Social Security and Medicare than they paid in taxes. Those who die at 95 will probably get much more.

The different kinds of federal taxes are really just accounting categories. At the end of the day, the government has to cover the cost of all its operations with revenue from all its taxes. We can’t wish our deficit away by saying that it’s mostly a Medicare and Social Security deficit.

If anything, the government numbers I’m using here exaggerate how much of the tax burden falls on the wealthy. These numbers fail to account for the income that is hidden from tax collectors — a practice, research shows, that is more common among affluent families. “Because higher-income people are understating their income,” Joel Slemrod, a tax scholar at the University of Michigan, says, “We’ve been overstating their average tax rates.”

State and local taxes, meanwhile, may actually be regressive. That is, middle-class and poor families may face higher tax rates than the wealthy. As Kim Rueben of the Tax Policy Center notes, state and local income taxes and property taxes are less progressive than federal taxes, while sales taxes end up being regressive. The typical family pays a lot of state and local taxes, too — almost half as much as in federal taxes.

There is no question that the wealthy pay a higher overall tax rate than any other group. That is an American tradition. But there is also no question that their tax rates have fallen more than any other group’s over the last three decades. The only reason they are paying more taxes than in the past is that their pretax incomes have risen so rapidly — which hardly seems a great rationale for a further tax cut.

So why are those radio and television talk show hosts spending so much time arguing that today’s wealthy are unfairly burdened? Well, it’s hard not to notice that the talk show hosts themselves tend to be among the very wealthy.

No doubt, like the rest of us, they don’t particularly enjoy paying taxes. They are happy with the tax cuts they have received lately. They would prefer if other people had to pick up the bill for Medicare, Social Security and the military — people like, say, firefighters, preschool teachers, computer support specialists, farmers, members of the clergy, mail carriers, secretaries and truck drivers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 09:34:36 AM »
HEY IDIOT - THEY GET THE PAYROLL TAX MONEY LATER IN THE FORM OF MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY! 



And as for the second point: 


The 47 percent number is not wrong. The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.




BOOOOOOOMMMMMM! ! ! ! ! !

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 09:44:23 AM »
HEY IDIOT - THEY GET THE PAYROLL TAX MONEY LATER IN THE FORM OF MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY! 



And as for the second point: 


The 47 percent number is not wrong. The stimulus programs of the last two years — the first one signed by President George W. Bush, the second and larger one by President Obama — have increased the number of households that receive enough of a tax credit to wipe out their federal income tax liability.




BOOOOOOOMMMMMM! ! ! ! ! !



just as long as milionaires and billionaires have idiots like you sticking up for them things will never change.and just because you use the word boooom that does'nt make your point right in fact using booom is a little retarded

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 09:45:36 AM »
So you have nothing at all.  Thank you. 

Your leftist bullshit is blown to smitherines again.   

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 09:52:24 AM »
So you have nothing at all.  Thank you. 

Your leftist bullshit is blown to smitherines again.   

and do you actually think the top 1% pay the 38% than you are an idiot, oh and i'm going to use your retarded word


boooom  :D :D :D

headhuntersix

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 10:22:02 AM »
Um...not suire about you retard by I aspire to be a millionaire...and don't begrudge the hard work it took many to get to that status. I do begrudge the millions who don't work and don't pay taxes.....
L

tonymctones

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »
LOL blackass shown to be the idiot he is...

Fury

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2011, 03:58:48 PM »
So you have nothing at all.  Thank you. 

Your leftist bullshit is blown to smitherines again.   

You're arguing with a child that is a parasitic benefit leech. While the rest of us are out earning our keep, this pathetic scumbag sits at home firing away on Getbig while collecting his welfare paychecks.

He's a real piece of shit. Lazy fuck that will toe the democrat line because he can't be bothered working or paying taxes.

Necrosis

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2011, 04:08:25 PM »
You're arguing with a child that is a parasitic benefit leech. While the rest of us are out earning our keep, this pathetic scumbag sits at home firing away on Getbig while collecting his welfare paychecks.

He's a real piece of shit. Lazy fuck that will toe the democrat line because he can't be bothered working or paying taxes.

why do people paint democratics as lazy? the red states receive more handouts the the blue states, this is a fact. On top of that the vast majority of college educated people, that is one degree up to phds and MD's are democrats. I would venture to say that it is the other way around based on all the data. Obama is also a more of the center type of guy in actuality, or at least based on his track record.

the vast majority of americans make under 75'000, why everyone thinks they will be millionaires is beyond me.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 04:10:30 PM »
Obama had a record to the left of bernie sanders.

Fury

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 04:10:54 PM »
why do people paint democratics as lazy? the red states receive more handouts the the blue states, this is a fact. On top of that the vast majority of college educated people, that is one degree up to phds and MD's are democrats. I would venture to say that it is the other way around based on all the data. Obama is also a more of the center type of guy in actuality, or at least based on his track record.

the vast majority of americans make under 75'000, why everyone thinks they will be millionaires is beyond me.

Where did I say democrats were lazy? Can you actually quote that for me as I don't see it. I didn't bother reading the rest of your post after your first sentence consisted of nothing more than a sad straw man.


tonymctones

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2011, 04:11:24 PM »
why do people paint democratics as lazy? the red states receive more handouts the the blue states, this is a fact. On top of that the vast majority of college educated people, that is one degree up to phds and MD's are democrats. I would venture to say that it is the other way around based on all the data. Obama is also a more of the center type of guy in actuality, or at least based on his track record.

the vast majority of americans make under 75'000, why everyone thinks they will be millionaires is beyond me.
the vast majority of welfare recepient are also democrats.........


Kazan

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2011, 04:13:33 PM »
why do people paint democratics as lazy? the red states receive more handouts the the blue states, this is a fact. On top of that the vast majority of college educated people, that is one degree up to phds and MD's are democrats. I would venture to say that it is the other way around based on all the data. Obama is also a more of the center type of guy in actuality, or at least based on his track record.

the vast majority of americans make under 75'000, why everyone thinks they will be millionaires is beyond me.

You just proved the point, education does not equal intelligence. Obama is a center type of guy? Compared to who, Stalin?

Why do people think they can be millionaires? Because this is America, you change your circumstances.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Dos Equis

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 04:53:17 PM »
Obama is also a more of the center type of guy in actuality, or at least based on his track record.


 :o  Put the crack pipe down and step away from the keyboard.   :)

Obama campaigned as a liberal and has governed as a liberal. 

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 04:28:27 AM »
You're arguing with a child that is a parasitic benefit leech. While the rest of us are out earning our keep, this pathetic scumbag sits at home firing away on Getbig while collecting his welfare paychecks.

He's a real piece of shit. Lazy fuck that will toe the democrat line because he can't be bothered working or paying taxes.

hahaha this coming from the guy that lives at home with his mother now that is priceless :D :D. any time you want to compare homes you let me know,oh that's right you have to have your own home :D,your mommys don't count ;D

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 04:42:43 AM »
Do you own the group home? 

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 04:49:31 AM »
Do you own the group home? 


no  :D but i would like to open one in your neighborhood,if i can tear down a couple of the burnt out slum buildings but they won't let me they are calling them landmarks  :D

MB

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 06:11:41 AM »
Take away the EITC and that will enable the bottom 50% to pay their fair share. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2011, 06:13:19 AM »

no  :D but i would like to open one in your neighborhood,if i can tear down a couple of the burnt out slum buildings but they won't let me they are calling them landmarks  :D

I just found a buyer for my building this week finally.  I did not tell him of the homeless shelter coming next year w 500 bums. 

I may finally be getting out of the Bronx after all these years. 

blacken700

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2011, 09:35:51 AM »
I just found a buyer for my building this week finally.  I did not tell him of the homeless shelter coming next year w 500 bums. 

I may finally be getting out of the Bronx after all these years. 

what are buildings going for in the bronx on average?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Thom Hartmann: The question Republicans can't answer
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2011, 09:39:02 AM »
what are buildings going for in the bronx on average?

Depends where.   I sold for double what I paid in 2004.  I got an amazing deal in 2004.