Author Topic: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?  (Read 7811 times)

suckmymuscle

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The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« on: August 06, 2011, 04:49:04 PM »
  I think I am the most misunderstood and misquoted poster on Getbig. Some time ago, I made a post in a thread where I attacked the keto diet and got trashed. I do not deny that the keto diet produces improvements in overall health in the short term. My criticism is that I don't believe it is an ideal diet in the long run. I will explain my reasons, and I am willing to have a reasonable debate as long as people make coherent and substantiated points.

  Yes, the keto diet does cause improvements in many markers associated with health such as plasma glycemia, systolic blood pressure and even improves blood lipid profile depending on the version of keto diet you do. After all, a diet with no glucose will produce the healthiest levels possible of blood glucose, which is the minimum the body will be getting from gluconeogenesis of protein in the liver.

The other energy substrate will be ketones from the breakdown of long fatty chains also in the liver. Your blood lipid profile will also improve, since both fats and carbohydrates raise blood tryglyceride levels, but fat is much slower to digest and break down, so the amount of fatty acids in the blood might decrease even though you are eating more fat. If you do a version of the keto diet where you get most of your fat from cold-water fish, the improvement in the HDL/LDL ratio  might be remarkable.

  But the keto diet produces many problems for Humans. We do not digest and assimilate fats and protein as effectively as carbohydrates, and even though long polysaccharide chains are also burdensome for the liver to break down, they are not nearly as burdensome as fats and much less burdensome than protein. Metabolically, all our energy-producing mechanisms at the cellular level, the mitochondria, are geared to utilize chains of saccharides or variants of adenosine for energy. Furthermore, the problems go further than this. Our digestive tracts, digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts cannot effectively process foods laden with protein and fat.

For instance, we have ten times more amylase in our saliva than protease, and the hydrochloric acid in our stomach is too diluted to break down the fibrous protein filaments of meat. Then, our gastro-intestinal tract, which is similar to that of frugivores and folivores, is too long to dispose of large quantities of protein and fat metabolites fast. There is also the issuen of acidosis. Humans have alkaline saliva, and Human cells are slightly alkaline. This is the opposite of a carnivores like a lion, which has an acidic saliva and cells that work better in an acidic medium.Both fats and ptrotein are acid-forming. After all, both fats and proteins are acid-based. Fats are fatty acids, and proteins are made of amino acids. Eating large quantities of both results in the fromation of acidic metabolites, which must be buffered and made alkaline. The body draws carbonate from the bones to accomplish this. Protein breaks down into large quantities or uric acid and creatinine and ammonia. ammonia further breaks down into many inorganic acids that must be buffered. vegetables alkalinize the body, but in a keto diet where you get all your energy from fats andf proteins there isn's enough greesn that can do that.

Being in an acidic state poisons the mitochondria of cells, resulting in accelerated metabolic stress(oxidation). The liver, already strained from gluconeogenesis and fatty acid breakdown, must now deal with large ammounts of ammonia that must be further broeken down. Result: accelerated liver and kidney degeneration. A keto diet thus results in:

  - Ostheoporosis

  - Gout

  - Arthritis

  - Accelerated ageing even if infflamation is controlled by ingestion of polynsaturated fats and vitamin E

  - Stress and burned out liver and kidneys.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Bam-bam

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 05:55:45 PM »
fail.

DK II

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 05:57:09 PM »
How much muscle could a Gorilla build on the keto diet?

Gorillas strike me as rather fat, maybe he would need a diet soda before.

Van_Bilderass

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2011, 05:58:37 PM »
I heard Milos is back in Europe. Anyone hear this?

Bam-bam

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 06:00:06 PM »
I heard Milos is back in Europe. Anyone hear this?

no, I what heard is that Milos is back in Europe.

WAWY

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 06:52:52 PM »
Good thing I'm on a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet then instead of constant keto..

Krankenstein

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2011, 07:11:25 PM »
 I think I am the most misunderstood and misquoted poster on Getbig. Some time ago, I made a post in a thread where I attacked the keto diet and got trashed. I do not deny that the keto diet produces improvements in overall health in the short term. My criticism is that I don't believe it is an ideal diet in the long run. I will explain my reasons, and I am willing to have a reasonable debate as long as people make coherent and substantiated points.

  Yes, the keto diet does cause improvements in many markers associated with health such as plasma glycemia, systolic blood pressure and even improves blood lipid profile depending on the version of keto diet you do. After all, a diet with no glucose will produce the healthiest levels possible of blood glucose, which is the minimum the body will be getting from gluconeogenesis of protein in the liver. The other energy substrate will be ketones from the breakdown of long fatty chains also in the liver. Your blood lipid profile will also improve, since both fats and carbohydrates raise blood tryglyceride levels, but fat is much slower to digest and break down, so the amount of fatty acids in the blood might decrease even though you are eating more fat. If you do a version of the keto diet where you get most of your fat from cold-water fish, the improvement in the HDL/LDL ratio  might be remarkable.

  But the keto diet produces many problems for Humans. We do not digest and assimilate fats and protein as effectively as carbohydrates, and even though long polysaccharide chains are also burdensome for the liver to break down, they are not nearly as burdensome as fats and much less burdensome than protein. Metabolically, all our energy-producing mechanisms at the cellular level, the mitochondria, are geared to utilize chains of saccharides or variants of adenosine for energy. Furthermore, the problems go further than this. Our digestive tracts, digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts cannot effectively process foods laden with protein and fat. For instance, we have ten times more amylase in our saliva than protease, and the hydrochloric acid in our stomach is too diluted to break down the fibrous protein filaments of meat. Then, our gastro-intestinal tract, which is similar to that of frugivores and folivores, is too long to dispose of large quantities of protein and fat metabolites fast. There is also the issuen of acidosis. Humans have alkaline saliva, and Human cells are slightly alkaline. This is the opposite of a carnivores like a lion, which has an acidic saliva and cells that work better in an acidic medium.Both fats and ptrotein are acid-forming. After all, both fats and proteins are acid-based. Fats are fatty acids, and proteins are made of amino acids. Eating large quantities of both results in the fromation of acidic metabolites, which must be buffered and made alkaline. The body draws carbonate from the bones to accomplish this. Protein breaks down into large quantities or uric acid and creatinine and ammonia. ammonia further breaks down into many inorganic acids that must be buffered. vegetables alkalinize the body, but in a keto diet where you get all your energy from fats andf proteins there isn's enough greesn that can do that. Being in an acidic state poisons the mitochondria of cells, resulting in accelerated metabolic stress(oxidation). The liver, already strained from gluconeogenesis and fatty acid breakdown, must now deal with large ammounts of ammonia that must be further broeken down. Result: accelerated liver and kidney degeneration. A keto diet thus results in:

 - Ostheoporosis

  - Gout

  - Arthritis

  - Accelerated ageing even if infflamation is controlled by ingestion of polynsaturated fats and vitamin E

  - Stress and burned out liver and kidneys.


SUCKMYMUSCLE

Proof of above in HEALTHY people....

Also, there is no such thing as an "essential" carbohydrate.  Ever ask yourself why that is?  There is, however, essential amino acids and fats.

HOLY SHIT....MILOS IS IN EUROPE???  FUCK YOU MUSCLE PHONE FOR NOT INFORMING ME!

suckmymuscle

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2011, 09:44:50 PM »
Proof of above in HEALTHY people....

  As far as I know, no double-blind, placebo-controlled studies on the long-term health effects of a ketogenic diet have been done on Humans, and the reason for this is that pretty much no one can stand being without carbs for more than a few months. I can provide you an example of how this diet is not healthy. the Eskimo do a year-long ketogenic diet where they eat nothing but sea food, and they have a life expectancy of less than 40 years when they don't have access to modern medicine. They have extremely high rates of artherosclerosis, bowel and intestinal cancer and gout. Conversely, they have low rates of dementia and suffer much lower rates of macular degeneration due to their diet which is very rich in omega-3 fatty acids.

Quote
Also, there is no such thing as an "essential" carbohydrate.  Ever ask yourself why that is?  There is, however, essential amino acids and fats.

  Lol, this is irrelevant. The reason why there are essential fats and amino acids is because they are used to build the structure of cells. Carbohydrates are not used to build cells, dummy, so why would they be essential? But we are not debating this. We are debating what is the ideal diet for Humans and the argument that I am making is that a diet where you get your energy mostly from carbs is better for your health and longevity in the long run than a diet where you get your energy mostly from fats and proteins.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2011, 10:03:43 PM »
My opinion on the keto diet is that people get blinded by the initial large drop in water weight compared to conventional diets that dont cut carbs.The rest of the insulin spike blah blah stuff is BS in my opinion.Calories in<Calories out.

DK II

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 02:07:44 AM »
Is it true that Milos is in Europe?

BikiniSlut

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 02:09:45 AM »
This debate is fucking pointless. If keto did not work than people would not be doing it.

So why debate if it works? It obviously works for some as some use it.

Stavios

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 09:43:54 AM »
Is it true that Milos is in Europe?

we can't know for sure

once a youtube video of him in a european supplement store will be produced, THEN and only THEN will we know for sure

suckmymuscle

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 10:16:16 AM »
This debate is fucking pointless. If keto did not work than people would not be doing it.

So why debate if it works? It obviously works for some as some use it.

  How many people stay in the keto diet indefinitely? Everyone quits eventually because carbs are just much as an energy substrate than either protein or fats. And the keto diet does work to lose bodyfat and even might improve health markers in the short term. Does it work in the long run and does it improve your health overall in the long run? No.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Agent69

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 11:44:31 AM »
for me keto would be a nightmare...I dont know any big dudes who use keto.pro or amatuer........unless your a big fat pig...I know tons of girls who have used it and they are also doing 2 hours of cardio while on it, dosent make sence to me and in the end all it did was mess up there metabolisms...me as a trainer would never put anyone on keto.complex carbs are needed by the body for so many reasos and you can get shredded eating them and stay healthy mind and body....

Moen

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 12:42:26 PM »
Bottom line is: it doesn't work any better than a carb based diet at equal kcal levels, in fact it might work even worse since there is more thyroid slowdown.

And who wants to look flat and thus fat?


kevinf

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 01:43:10 PM »
so let me get this straight..
is Milos in Europe or is he not?

Stavios

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 01:46:24 PM »
so let me get this straight..
is Milos in Europe or is he not?

watching CNN as I type this, still no news about Milos's current situation

Rami

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »
it kills brain cells, dieting makes the brain consume self

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2011, 08:59:56 PM »
Healthy brain cells can utilize either glucose or ketones.......

I've been using it on and off for 10 years with fantastic results.  More recently, I've been on it more than off.  The only negatives I've experienced are frequent urination and bad breath.  That's what gum is for though....

Rami

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2011, 09:02:00 PM »
it works to paint you into a corner

Krankenstein

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2011, 09:28:50 PM »
 As far as I know, no double-blind, placebo-controlled studies on the long-term health effects of a ketogenic diet have been done on Humans, and the reason for this is that pretty much no one can stand being without carbs for more than a few months. I can provide you an example of how this diet is not healthy. the Eskimo do a year-long ketogenic diet where they eat nothing but sea food, and they have a life expectancy of less than 40 years when they don't have access to modern medicine. They have extremely high rates of artherosclerosis, bowel and intestinal cancer and gout. Conversely, they have low rates of dementia and suffer much lower rates of macular degeneration due to their diet which is very rich in omega-3 fatty acids.

  Lol, this is irrelevant. The reason why there are essential fats and amino acids is because they are used to build the structure of cells. Carbohydrates are not used to build cells, dummy, so why would they be essential? But we are not debating this. We are debating what is the ideal diet for Humans and the argument that I am making is that a diet where you get your energy mostly from carbs is better for your health and longevity in the long run than a diet where you get your energy mostly from fats and proteins.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

HA HA....resorted to name calling in a thread where you pretty much ask for civility.  You can not prove what is the IDEAL diet for humans because there IS NONE.  The longevity people would advise REDUCTION in calories.  Plain and simple.   You pulled some fact about eskimos and their longevity.  Wow, impressive.  How about look at other nationalities.  I asked to prove that the keto diet in people who train is bad.  You can't.  Plain and simple.  Look at people who don't train with the typical food pyramid...obesity levels through the roof.  Thats just the tip of the iceberg.  Oh, but wait, the keto-type diet is so bad. 

Saying that its "irrelevant" that there is no essential carbohydrate is pretty much saying "because I said so" in a debate.  The body has this wonderful process called gluconeogenesis because its not that important that we take them in.  Fats are used in so many of the body's structure and processes is staggering.  The same can be said for proteins/AA's.

Try again.

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Re: The Keto Diet - Debate on of it works or not?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2011, 10:08:38 PM »
SMM can you explain why carbs are "protein sparing" and how they exert this effect? Also, what is the ideal carb intake structure for a natty wanting to compete?

suckmymuscle

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2011, 10:18:16 PM »
HA HA....resorted to name calling in a thread where you pretty much ask for civility.  You can not prove what is the IDEAL diet for humans because there IS NONE.  The longevity people would advise REDUCTION in calories.  Plain and simple.   You pulled some fact about eskimos and their longevity.  Wow, impressive.  How about look at other nationalities.  I asked to prove that the keto diet in people who train is bad.  You can't.  Plain and simple.  Look at people who don't train with the typical food pyramid...obesity levels through the roof.  Thats just the tip of the iceberg.  Oh, but wait, the keto-type diet is so bad. 

Saying that its "irrelevant" that there is no essential carbohydrate is pretty much saying "because I said so" in a debate.  The body has this wonderful process called gluconeogenesis because its not that important that we take them in.  Fats are used in so many of the body's structure and processes is staggering.  The same can be said for proteins/AA's.

Try again.

  Sorry for calling you dummy, but bringing up the fact that there are essential fats and proteins to justify them being a better energy substrate than carbs and drawing the conclusion that therefore a diet with protein and fats but no carbs is better for you is asinine.

  And yes, the body can turn proteins into sugars via gluconeogensis. I don't know why you are bringing this up since I addressed this in my post. Gluconeogensis puts an enormous amount of stress in the liver and creates many breakdown products that are highly toxic to the body, like ammonia. The fact that the body needs to turn protein into sugar via gluconeogenesis is exactly the reason why I believe that the ketogenic diet is terrible for you in the long run even though it can improve your health in the short term.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2011, 10:21:23 PM »
  Sorry for calling you dummy, but bringing up the fact that there are essential fats and proteins to justify them being a better energy substrate than carbs and drawing the conclusion that therefore a diet with protein and fats but no carbs is better for you is asinine.

  And yes, the body can turn proteins into sugars via gluconeogensis. I don't know why you are bringing this up since I addressed this in my post. Gluconeogensis puts an enormous amount of stress in the liver and creates many breakdown products that are highly toxic to the body, like ammonia. The fact that the body needs to turn protein into sugar via gluconeogenesis is exactly the reason why I believe that the ketogenic diet is terrible for you in the long run even though it can improve your health in the short term.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

sorry I havent read the whole thread
but
what is the ideal distribution of p/c/f in your mind?

suckmymuscle

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Re: On the Keto diet.
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2011, 10:35:26 PM »
sorry I havent read the whole thread
but
what is the ideal distribution of p/c/f in your mind?

  50/30/20  carbs/protein/fat

SUCKMYMUSCLE