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Author Topic: Can you be Christian AND believe Jesus was not the messiah?  (Read 2254 times)
Hugo Chavez
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« on: August 15, 2011, 04:39:56 PM »

If so, what does this mean exactly?

Help me out with this one,
Thanks
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Emmortal
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 09:35:31 PM »

If so, what does this mean exactly?

Help me out with this one,
Thanks

The messiah as defined by the Old Testament who was to fullfill the prophecies?
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 11:08:33 PM »

The messiah as defined by the Old Testament who was to fullfill the prophecies?
I'm asking from a christian's point of view.

wiki says, "Christianity emerged early in the first century AD as a movement among Jews and their Gentile converts who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. The name "Christian" was first coined by the Jews in Antioch. The Greek word for 'Messiah' is khristos (χριστος). Christians commonly refer to Jesus as either the "Christ" or the "Messiah." In Christian theology the two words are synonymous."

I'm asking because there is a very popular pastor that says Jesus didn't even think he was the messiah and actually absolutely refused the role.

As he says he is a christian, what does this mean?  Is believing that Jesus was the messiah optional for christians?
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Emmortal
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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2011, 12:35:18 AM »

John gives direct and very specific warning against those that deny Jesus Christ the Messiah (Christ and Messiah are one in the same, it's not Christ or Messiah as they are defined as one).  It's pretty clear, cut and dry and laid out that those who deny Jesus is the Messiah are the worst of the worst.

1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John Gill has excellent commentary on this scripture:

Quote
Who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?.... Or that very Christ, and true Messiah, who was spoken of by all the prophets, since the beginning of the world, and so much, and so long desired by the Old Testament saints: he that denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah of the prophets, is not indeed the only liar in the world, but he is the greatest of liars; this is a consummate lie, being opposed to a glaring truth, to a fact clear an indisputable; and which rests not merely on the testimony of Jesus, who is truth itself, and who, in express words, more than once, declared and asserted himself to be the Christ; but all the characters of the Messiah, everything that is said of him in the Prophets, meet in Jesus, and the miracles which were done by him are flagrant proofs and undeniable evidences of his being the Christ of God; and all the apostles believed, and were sure that he was Christ, the Son of the living God: to which may be added the testimony of John, who was sent, and came to bear witness of him, and did; and who was a prophet, and a man of great probity and integrity. But there was a greater witness than he; even God himself, by a voice from heaven, bore a testimony to him; and angels, at his incarnation, declared him to be the Saviour, which is Christ the Lord; yea, the devil himself, who is a liar, and the father of ties in other things, knew and owned Jesus to be the Christ; so that those that deny him are the worst of liars, even worse than the devil himself. This may have regard not only to the Jews, that deny Jesus to be the Messiah, but chiefly to such who went by the name of Christians; who denied either his proper deity, or real humanity, as Ebion and Cerinthus, which was denying him to be the God-man, the Mediator, and Messiah; and is true of all such that deny him in any of his offices, or in things relating to them, as his Gospel, and any of the peculiar doctrines of it, delivered by him, and so deny his prophetic office; or any of his ordinances, institutions, and appointments, as lawgiver in his house, and King of saints, and so deny him in his kingly office; or reject him as the alone Saviour, joining their own works with him, in the business of salvation, and oppose his sacrifice and satisfaction, and despise his imputed righteousness, and so deny him in his priestly office. Now these are some of the liars, and these some of the doctrinal lies, which are not of the truth, as in 1Jo_2:21.

He is antichrist that denieth the Father and the Son: that denies the Father of Christ to be the Creator of the world, but asserts that it was made by angels, as some ancient heretics did; or that the Father of Christ is not the God of the Old Testament, as Marcion; or that denies that God is the Father of Christ, and that Christ is the Son of God; who will not allow that there is any such relation in nature between them; who affirm that Christ is only the Son of God by adoption, or because of his love to him, or because of his incarnation and resurrection from the dead; or that he is not his true and proper Son, only in a figurative and metaphorical sense; that he is not the natural and eternally begotten Son of God, only by office, and as Mediator, and that God is only his Father, as having installed him into an office; or he that denies that these two are distinct from each other, but affirms that Father is the Son, and the Son is the Father, and so confounds them both, and, by confounding both, denies that there are either Father or Son; and all such persons are antichrists, or opposers of Christ.
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2011, 12:56:16 AM »

John gives direct and very specific warning against those that deny Jesus Christ the Messiah (Christ and Messiah are one in the same, it's not Christ or Messiah as they are defined as one).  It's pretty clear, cut and dry and laid out that those who deny Jesus is the Messiah are the worst of the worst.

1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John Gill has excellent commentary on this scripture:

thanks!  That pretty much nails it down.  Hearing this guy say that confussed the hell out me, I was like, huh?  This pastor also says, "poverty is caused by sin and disobeying the Word of God." LOL, I really wondered about that statement too.  Doesn't seem like a christian thing to say lol..  And he has a very big national following both TV and radio.
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Emmortal
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2011, 01:04:19 AM »

thanks!  That pretty much nails it down.  Hearing this guy say that confussed the hell out me, I was like, huh?  This pastor also says, "poverty is caused by sin and disobeying the Word of God." LOL, I really wondered about that statement too.  Doesn't seem like a christian thing to say lol..  And he has a very big national following both TV and radio.

It's saddening to hear of such things and how many people get sucked into it completely dissuaded from the truth and led astray.  It's much easier for humans to pass judgement on one another than to turn an inward eye on themselves to see their true nature.
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Butterbean
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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2011, 07:04:01 AM »

If so, what does this mean exactly?

Help me out with this one,
Thanks

Not according to the Biblical definition.  Good posts from Emmortal.

Hugo, who is the Pastor?
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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2011, 07:36:05 AM »

Well, yes and no, in ancient Christian Rome one of the biggest problem for 'standard' Christianity was the so-called Arian heresy, the Arian Christians were people who believed that Jesus was subordinate to his father and a separate entity, thus nullifying the trinity. It was stamped out after a few hundred years.
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 08:23:16 AM »

It's saddening to hear of such things and how many people get sucked into it completely dissuaded from the truth and led astray.  It's much easier for humans to pass judgement on one another than to turn an inward eye on themselves to see their true nature.

Yeah, I've struggled with this in the past.  I've always been far too judgemental of others, always pointing out the speck in someone's eye when I have a log in mine LOL!!
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 06:13:37 AM »

Hugo, who is the Pastor?
Hagee.

there was a backlash after his comments so he backtracked like a worm and told everyone he would revise his comments but I don't see how he can do that as his first comments were very clear.
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Butterbean
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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 07:18:23 AM »

Hagee.

there was a backlash after his comments so he backtracked like a worm and told everyone he would revise his comments but I don't see how he can do that as his first comments were very clear.

I saw him briefly on TBN  Undecided a few years ago engaging in a type of prosperity "gospel" which negates him as a good pastor and puts him in the schister category imo.



How could he miss these scriptures:

John 4:25-26
"The woman said to Him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.'   Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am He.'"

Matt. 16:16-17
"And Simon Peter answered and said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'   And Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.'"


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Roger Bacon
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2011, 01:15:01 PM »

If so, what does this mean exactly?

Help me out with this one,
Thanks

I have a strong belief in God, and I know Jesus did exist but I have a feeling he was just another prophet and no more of an embodiment of god than anyone else.
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Emmortal
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2011, 05:29:52 PM »

I have a strong belief in God, and I know Jesus did exist but I have a feeling he was just another prophet and no more of an embodiment of god than anyone else.

What God do you believe in?
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Roger Bacon
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2011, 08:10:53 PM »

What God do you believe in?

God
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Emmortal
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 02:39:52 AM »

God

I'm not being facetious, just trying to find out what your beliefs are.  Mind sharing?
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Roger Bacon
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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 11:37:18 AM »

I'm not being facetious,

I know, and I appreciate your interest!

I was raised Methodist, went to Church and all that.  I believe God is in us all, and the force behind everything.

I took a religion test on some website and my results were:

1. Liberal Quaker <---- LOL
2. Unitarian Universalist
3. Reform Judaism

 Grin

I've read the bible, I like it and all the great wisdom it contains. I don't think I've ever really agreed with the concept of original sin, and all that.
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Reeves
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2011, 06:30:26 PM »

No. But apparently (as evidenced by your bullshit posts) you can be an ignorant fucktard and type.
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 01:03:21 PM »

No. But apparently (as evidenced by your bullshit posts) you can be an ignorant fucktard and type.
wow, angry much?  such rage in you lol
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Reeves
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2011, 07:59:43 PM »

wow, angry much?  such rage in you lol
Rage?  You're either naive or stupid.  No... No question about it.  You're just stupid. Here to help, champ.  You're over your head in the shallow end of the gene pool, pal.
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2011, 11:36:10 AM »

LOL, reeves, you've attacked me multiple times and there is not one single item with any of those attacks that can be given a reply of any kind.

With absolutely no substance to a single one of your posts, you must be looking for a reply along these lines, "I'm not stupid, you're stupid"

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4</a>
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Roger Bacon
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2011, 04:39:51 PM »

LOL, reeves, you've attacked me multiple times and there is not one single item with any of those attacks that can be given a reply of any kind.

With absolutely no substance to a single one of your posts, you must be looking for a reply along these lines, "I'm not stupid, you're stupid"

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4</a>

HAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!

DEAD ON!

 Grin
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Reeves
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2011, 07:49:24 PM »

LOL, reeves, you've attacked me multiple times and there is not one single item with any of those attacks that can be given a reply of any kind.

With absolutely no substance to a single one of your posts, you must be looking for a reply along these lines, "I'm not stupid, you're stupid"

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs4Gj7JsET4</a>


You!  Out of the gene pool...Now!
 
If you feeeeeeeeel you've been "attacked" I suggest you go inflate your mental water wings, pussy. No... Just get out of the pool, champ. I just happen to be that which you can't deal with.  An atheist that knows the bible.
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Roger Bacon
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2011, 08:07:19 PM »



You!  Out of the gene pool...Now!
 
If you feeeeeeeeel you've been "attacked" I suggest you go inflate your mental water wings, pussy. No... Just get out of the pool, champ. I just happen to be that which you can't deal with.  An atheist that knows the bible.

Still melting!!! Grin
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2011, 09:29:57 PM »

Still melting!!! Grin

BHWHAHahahaha,,,  did he really just type this stuff lololol:  "Mental water wings" hahaha....  I can't deal with it lol... Grin



You!  Out of the gene pool...Now!
 
If you feeeeeeeeel you've been "attacked" I suggest you go inflate your mental water wings, pussy. No... Just get out of the pool, champ. I just happen to be that which you can't deal with.  An atheist that knows the bible.
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Reeves
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2011, 10:06:15 PM »

BHWHAHahahaha,,,  did he really just type this stuff lololol:  "Mental water wings" hahaha....  I can't deal with it lol... Grin


Glad you enjoyed it, kid.  Later.   Grin
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