Author Topic: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.  (Read 140759 times)

grab an umbrella

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #925 on: August 25, 2011, 01:45:05 PM »
That doesn't sound extremely factual.

The states "ratified" the constitution to become part of the union, can those same states simply not "de-ratify" that constitution and in turn, form a new union under a newly ratified constitution of their choosing?

How is that "treasonous"?

This x1000.  Slavery was a terrible institution but the South absolutely had the right to leave the Union.

The True Adonis

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #926 on: August 25, 2011, 01:47:51 PM »
No they didn't have a right , it could be considered treason to leave the Union , and it wasn't recognized by either administration and the CSA wasn't recognized by anyone else either , it wasn't merely leaving the Union , it was setting up another ' country ' the South attacked Fort Sumter , there was no ' war of Northern aggression '  
England surely recognized the CSA and was in the process of providing Tall Ships and Munitions.

tu_holmes

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #927 on: August 25, 2011, 01:48:23 PM »
The Union considered it treason to secede , technically it wasn't illegal however creating a ' new ' country and attacking the Union was , and both the outgoing and incoming administrations didn't recognize the secession and no other country in the world recognized the CSA , the southern states knew by seceding what would happen , especially after they attacked Fort Sumter

I do not disagree that they knew what would happen, however, they did see Fort Sumter as an illegal base in their land.

I do not say that there was an inherent right or wrong.

Just that from a legal standpoint, if you ratify a constitution, de-ratification would in fact, just remove the ratification and should not be deemed "illegal" or "treasonous".

That's just an opinion of course and is not me stating that the succession was "Just" in any way.

ManBearPig...

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #928 on: August 25, 2011, 01:50:06 PM »
England surely recognized the CSA and was in the process of providing Tall Ships and Munitions.

ha ha, i'm sure the English wouldn't sleep easier at night knowing the yanks were offing each other.
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NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #929 on: August 25, 2011, 01:51:33 PM »
England surely recognized the CSA and was in the process of providing Tall Ships and Munitions.

No England didn't recognize the CSA , they were sympathetic towards the South but no other country recognized the CSA Adam , check your facts.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #930 on: August 25, 2011, 01:52:09 PM »
The Union considered it treason to secede , technically it wasn't illegal however creating a ' new ' country and attacking the Union was , and both the outgoing and incoming administrations didn't recognize the secession and no other country in the world recognized the CSA , the southern states knew by seceding what would happen , especially after they attacked Fort Sumter
As I said, England was an ally to the CSA and Furthermore, nobody was tried for Treason after the Civil War, you know why?  BECAUSE IT WASN`T TREASON.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #931 on: August 25, 2011, 01:53:40 PM »
No England didn't recognize the CSA , they were sympathetic towards the South but no other country recognized the CSA Adam , check your facts.
Uh, I live down the Street from where Robert E. Lee`s purchasing agent lived and was also the NC Commissioner to buy ships and supplies from England, THE CSA ally.


NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #932 on: August 25, 2011, 01:53:53 PM »
This x1000.  Slavery was a terrible institution but the South absolutely had the right to leave the Union.


And they did so to protect that institution ! and if I were a wealthy plantation owner I would feel the same way , however that doesn't change the fact that their interests were in protecting that business , slavery was big business and they were willing to go to war to protect it.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #933 on: August 25, 2011, 01:55:20 PM »

And they did so to protect that institution ! and if I were a wealthy plantation owner I would feel the same way , however that doesn't change the fact that their interests were in protecting that business , slavery was big business and they were willing to go to war to protect it.
What was North Carolina`s reason to Secede?  Or have you not been paying attention?

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #934 on: August 25, 2011, 01:58:41 PM »
As I said, England was an ally to the CSA and Furthermore, nobody was tried for Treason after the Civil War, you know why?  BECAUSE IT WASN`T TREASON.

Again Adam NO country in the world recognized the Confederate States or America , again England was sympathetic to the South's plight but doesn't change the facts. And I said the North did consider secession treason and just because no one was tried for it doesn't mean the North didn't consider it

perhaps it wasn't treason it doesn't change the fact that the North was willing to go to war over it

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #935 on: August 25, 2011, 02:00:52 PM »
Uh, I live down the Street from where Robert E. Lee`s purchasing agent lived and was also the NC Commissioner to buy ships and supplies from England, THE CSA ally.



Yeah because the British were fighting side-by-side with Nathan Bedford Forrest  ::) , now you're just talking out of your ass , England was the CSA ally  ::)  ::)

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #936 on: August 25, 2011, 02:02:31 PM »
Again Adam NO country in the world recognized the Confederate States or America , again England was sympathetic to the South's plight but doesn't change the facts. And I said the North did consider secession treason and just because no one was tried for it doesn't mean the North didn't consider it

perhaps it wasn't treason it doesn't change the fact that the North was willing to go to war over it
You also seem to be forgetting the John Brown raid on Harper`s Ferry.

John Brown was the first white man to use violence in an attempt to end slavery. This first use of violence by a white man scared many in the South, leading the Southern state militias to begin training for their defense of further raids and, consequently, to the militarization of the South in preparation for a Northern invasion.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #937 on: August 25, 2011, 02:05:49 PM »
Had it not been for the Union Blockade, England would have been over here with the CSA.  We also can`t discount the Trent Affair.  England was very close to permanently siding with the CSA.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #938 on: August 25, 2011, 02:10:13 PM »
You also seem to be forgetting the John Brown raid on Harper`s Ferry.

John Brown was the first white man to use violence in an attempt to end slavery. This first use of violence by a white man scared many in the South, leading the Southern state militias to begin training for their defense of further raids and, consequently, to the militarization of the South in preparation for a Northern invasion.

What happened to John Brown? and the South did a piss-poor job of preparing for a Northern invasion because at the start of the war the North had all the tools of the trade and again if it wasn't for McClellan's reluctance the war would have been over very quickly

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #939 on: August 25, 2011, 02:12:38 PM »
Had it not been for the Union Blockade, England would have been over here with the CSA.

Says you , but again the outgoing and incoming administrations didn't recognize the CSA and neither did any other country on the planet , they technically had every right to secede they should have thought wiser of forming a new country and attacking one with a vastly superior army and navy

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #940 on: August 25, 2011, 02:15:29 PM »
What happened to John Brown? and the South did a piss-poor job of preparing for a Northern invasion because at the start of the war the North had all the tools of the trade and again if it wasn't for McClellan's reluctance the war would have been over very quickly
 DC could have been taken a few times by the CSA.  

Here is an interesting read for you.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071201918.html

How Washington, D.C. almost fell to the Confederacy.



By Jonathan Yardley
Sunday, July 15, 2007
DESPERATE ENGAGEMENT

How a Little-Known Civil War Battle Saved Washington, D.C., and Changed the Course

of American History




On July 10, 1864, about 8,000 Confederate troops under the command of Gen. Jubal A. Early stood at the doorstep of the District of Columbia. Literally. They were "bedded down alongside the Georgetown Pike, strung out along a five-mile stretch from Gaithersburg to Rockville." The city of Washington was protected by an impressive array of fortifications -- Early appraised them as "exceedingly strong" -- but defensive manpower was sorely lacking; though nearly 35,000 troops were needed to protect the city, only about 10,000 were on hand, "nearly all of whom were physically incapacitated in some way or had never fired a weapon."



Yet Early, who certainly was no coward and, indeed, in the past had been feared by Union commanders for his boldness and inventiveness, chose not to attack. Whether he could have occupied the city has been endlessly debated, but that he chose not to try probably was a turning point in the war. As Marc Leepson writes:

"If [Early] broke through the ring of forts surrounding the city, Confederate veterans would be running loose on the streets of Washington, D.C. The U.S. Treasury, virtually undefended, was sitting ready for looting. Tons upon tons of brand-new, desperately needed war supplies, from blankets to rifles, were there for the taking. The president himself was a target of opportunity, not to mention the U.S. Capitol and dozens of other government buildings. . . . A 'rebel occupation of Washington for however brief a time,' former secretary of the Senate George C. Gorham later wrote, would have brought about 'serious consequences.' One of them 'would almost certainly have embraced the recognition of the Southern Confederacy by France and England, both of which governments were understood to be extremely desirous of even a slight pretext for such action.' "

That this did not come about, Leepson argues in Desperate Engagement, can be traced to two factors. The first and most obvious is that at the last minute Washington's defenses were significantly improved because, at the orders of Ulysses S. Grant, the seasoned troops of the Union's Sixth and Nineteenth Corps were rushed to the city from the Richmond area. The second is that three days before, Early had been forced into a fight he did not want at Monocacy, in Maryland a few miles from the town of Frederick, against federal forces under the command of Gen. Lew Wallace. Early prevailed in that engagement, but at considerable cost: "His ranks were thinned by the hundreds of men killed or severely wounded at Monocacy," and "of those remaining, large numbers were unfit for battle because they suffered from exhaustion after marching two days after the fight at Monocacy in what Union prisoner of war W.G. Duckett called the 'almost suffocating' heat."

All of which is to say that in this book we find ourselves firmly implanted in the land of what might have been. If Wallace had not possessed what he called "the determination to stay and fight," Early and his fresh troops would have had a straight shot to Washington. If Early had not been delayed at Monocacy, Grant might not have had time to grasp the seriousness of the threat to Washington and certainly would not have had time to rush crack troops to its defense. If Early had occupied Washington, all the dire consequences elaborated above probably would have arisen, and doubtless many others as well. The Confederacy still would have been in dire straits -- militarily, economically and politically -- but it would have been in position to sue for a peace far more favorable to its interests, probably one that would have maintained slavery in the Confederate states.

As is usually the case when we enter the land of might have been, the most salubrious effect of the exercise is to remind us that in war nothing is foreordained and the line between victory and defeat almost always is incredibly thin. When Robert E. Lee sent Early on his mission to Washington, he believed that Grant "would be forced to send a significant number of his troops from outside Richmond and Petersburg to defend the Union capital," and even though the mission failed to achieve its grandest goals, it did achieve that one. Grant might well have taken Richmond in the summer of 1864, ending the war then instead of in the spring of 1865, sparing untold thousands of lives and leaving both sides in better condition to reunite. As Leepson writes: "The July 9, 1864, fight at Monocacy has come to be known as 'the battle that saved Washington.' It was. It also very possibly was the battle that played a pivotal role in the series of events that started with Lee's June 12, 1864, order to send Early to the [Shenandoah] Valley. That series of events prolonged the Civil War for as many as nine long months."

In great measure this was due to Lew Wallace. He is best known now for his hugely successful novel Ben Hur: A Tale of the Christ (1880) and the three Hollywood adaptations of it, but there was much more to him than that. His "long, eventful life" included journalism, law, the army and politics. By the spring of 1864, at age 37, he was "commander of the Eighth Army Corps and of the Middle Department based in Baltimore," his authority including "all of Delaware and Maryland from Baltimore West to the Monocacy River." He "was, in effect, the military governor of the city of Baltimore (with nearly 250,000 people, the nation's third largest) and the state."

Wallace was ambitious and packed a not-inconsiderable ego, but he was also principled and patriotic. He "had no formal military training," but at Monocacy he "chose an excellent defensive position," with "the [Monocacy] river in front of him, a river with few easily crossed fords." His force of 5,800 men was far inferior to Early's, which was somewhere around 16,000, but Early did not want to engage him: "The last thing he wanted was an all-out field battle against a significant enemy force bolstered by hardened, veteran Sixth Corps troops holding high ground on the other side of a river," but that is exactly what Wallace gave him. It ended only when "the overpowering, massed Confederate artillery" forced the issue and sent Wallace's forces into retreat. He left the battlefield "believing, he said to his dying day, that by holding up Early for nearly an entire day, he had reached his goal of giving Grant time to get experienced troops up from Petersburg to defend Washington and letting [Union army chief of staff Henry] Halleck know, with no degree of uncertainty, that Early and his men would be moving on a beeline toward Washington."

All of which is probable but scarcely certain. Had Wallace not possessed the foresight and determination to ignore Halleck's indecision and timidity, the capital of the United States might well have fallen into Confederate hands, but by the same token some other obstacle might have arisen in Early's path. On the whole, nevertheless, Leepson's arguments are persuasive, though it must be said in candor that he does not advance them in prose of any distinction or interest. Writing about military maneuvers and military commanders is a tricky business that can lead to confusion and cameo biographies indistinguishable from each other. These are traps that Leepson does not entirely avoid. He seemed more at home in a previous book, Saving Monticello, in which military history was of no consequence.

Still, Desperate Engagement will (of course) be of interest to Civil War buffs, whose numbers remain legion nearly a century and a half after the war's end, and to many other readers as well. Wondering about what might have been is a game more than a study of history, but it is an instructive, useful game that deepens our understanding of history's uncertain, unpredictable path. ·

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #941 on: August 25, 2011, 02:16:40 PM »
Did any foreign countries recognize the Confederacy?

In effect, no. The closest thing to foreign recognition that the Confederacy achieved was when the German state of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha appointed a consul to Texas in July 1861 and the Confederate government accepted his credentials (all other foreign consuls operating in Southern states had applied to the U.S. government before the war). Although the appointment of the consul could be interpreted as de facto recognition of the Confederacy, Confederate officials did not make that claim during or after the war. Confederate diplomatic efforts concentrated on seeking recognition from Great Britain and France. Influential Britons and French were sympathetic to the South, but their governments did not recognize the Confederacy and the Confederacy never attained official status among the nations of the world.



Adam do your research

The True Adonis

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #942 on: August 25, 2011, 02:31:33 PM »
Did any foreign countries recognize the Confederacy?

In effect, no. The closest thing to foreign recognition that the Confederacy achieved was when the German state of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha appointed a consul to Texas in July 1861 and the Confederate government accepted his credentials (all other foreign consuls operating in Southern states had applied to the U.S. government before the war). Although the appointment of the consul could be interpreted as de facto recognition of the Confederacy, Confederate officials did not make that claim during or after the war. Confederate diplomatic efforts concentrated on seeking recognition from Great Britain and France. Influential Britons and French were sympathetic to the South, but their governments did not recognize the Confederacy and the Confederacy never attained official status among the nations of the world.



Adam do your research

After the Confederate win in the Battle of Bull Run, England was certain that the CSA Independence was inevitable.  England continued to provide Ships and Supplies with the hopes of this happening, pushing the odds in the favor of the CSA and thus giving the Independent CSA full rights as a nation.
Had the North surrendered, the CSA would have been fully recognized as a New Nation.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #943 on: August 25, 2011, 02:34:42 PM »
After the Confederate win in the Battle of Bull Run, England was certain that the CSA Independence was inevitable.  England continued to provide Ships and Supplies with the hopes of this happening, pushing the odds in the favor of the CSA and thus giving the Independent CSA full rights as a nation.
Had the North surrendered, the CSA would have been fully recognized as a New Nation.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

No one recognized the CSA and England wasn't an ally , sympathetic sure fully behind the CSA? nope sorry

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #944 on: August 25, 2011, 02:38:50 PM »
Did any foreign countries recognize the Confederacy?

In effect, no. The closest thing to foreign recognition that the Confederacy achieved was when the German state of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha appointed a consul to Texas in July 1861 and the Confederate government accepted his credentials (all other foreign consuls operating in Southern states had applied to the U.S. government before the war). Although the appointment of the consul could be interpreted as de facto recognition of the Confederacy, Confederate officials did not make that claim during or after the war. Confederate diplomatic efforts concentrated on seeking recognition from Great Britain and France. Influential Britons and French were sympathetic to the South, but their governments did not recognize the Confederacy and the Confederacy never attained official status among the nations of the world.



Adam do your research

Of course they couldn`t "officially" recognize the CSA as they hadn`t won the war yet.  This however, did not stop England from being an ally in the way of finance, ships and supplies.  As I said in my last post, England was pushing for a CSA Independence, especially behind closed doors.  There were countless secret meeting with Parliament and the CSA Diplomats as well as from the most influential citizens in England.  

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #945 on: August 25, 2011, 02:40:08 PM »
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

No one recognized the CSA and England wasn't an ally , sympathetic sure fully behind the CSA? nope sorry
What do you call a Nation who provides you with Ships, Munitions, Supplies and Credit to purchase with?


The True Adonis

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #946 on: August 25, 2011, 02:41:59 PM »
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

No one recognized the CSA and England wasn't an ally , sympathetic sure fully behind the CSA? nope sorry
Not if your Aunt is Renee Toney.  She would just be known as uncle Renee.  8)




NarcissisticDeity

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #947 on: August 25, 2011, 02:43:06 PM »
What do you call a Nation who provides you with Ships, Munitions, Supplies and Credit to purchase with?



Adam stop playing semantics games , I already explained that England & France were sympathetic to the South's plight ( wonder why? ) no one officially recognized the CSA they were doomed from the beginning

The True Adonis

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #948 on: August 25, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »
Adam stop playing semantics games , I already explained that England & France were sympathetic to the South's plight ( wonder why? ) no one officially recognized the CSA they were doomed from the beginning
And you also recognize that not all states Seceded out of protection of slavery?  For instance, North Carolina.

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Re: TRUE ADONIS- time to pay your bets.
« Reply #949 on: August 25, 2011, 02:45:56 PM »
On a side note:

Does anyone have a video with Renee Toney speaking?  I was trying to find one with it speaking, but I couldn`t.