Bodybuilding training: "Heavy weights" or "stimulate, don't annihilate"?

[dj181]

the heavier the weight you lift the bigger you shall be.

FACT

[oldtimer1]

You need both.  Some periods you have to go heavy with low sets to failure. Other times you need to do endurance training using medium weights, high sets and short rests between sets.

Sometimes in the gym you see might someone training light.  When they are doing so many sets quickly that is a brutal way of training. 

[Moen]

Thanks for the replies everybody.  It seems to me the "intensity" that bodybuilders train with is grossly exaggerated.  I see this group of poor highschool kids at my gym who go yap it up with all the "natural wonders," gallon jug of water and gym bag in hand, wrist wraps and belt firmly fastened.  They go hard every set, tons of sets, grinding out big weights and still, of course, have stick limbs and 16% bodyfat (naturally they're bulking ).  Seems like they never notice the whole time they're dripping sweat and destroying their joints, the big guys are calmly breezing through a set or two of nearly the same weights.

The more bodybuilding videos I see, the more it seems like most pros don't push themselves as hard as the 16 year olds who just gained their first 15 lbs and are hungry for more.  Sure they sweat and grunt a lot more and heave heavier weights around, but they're putting their bodies through less punishment, I think, than the delusional kid who's pushing 3 plates on squat for a handful of bone-crushing reps.

I'm quite convinced a lot of smaller guys are simply training too hard and pay for it by lesser results and injuries. Seen almost the exact same correlation between size and effort put in.

[_bruce_]

Agree with more weight = bigger muscle.
If I could bench 315 with control and focus I would be bigger than I am now - how much is a question of genetics.
Best to let the weight creep up slowely over weeks, months and years in periodic fashion... along the way you'll add muscle for sure.

[JP_RC]

Heavy weight school of thought:

1.  More weight = more muscle size.  Aim to get more reps or add weight to the bar every workout.
2.  Go to failure.  The muscle won't grow if you don't push it beyond its limits.
3.  Often sets and reps are very important for those subscribing to this mentality.  They tend to focus on the 5-8 rep range and may even record their workouts in a log book.

"Stimulate, don't annihilate" school of thought:

1.  Use as little weight as you can while still fatiguing the muscles.
2.  You don't have to go to failure, doing so can lead to injury / "overtraining."
3.  Reps should be very smooth.  The last rep in the set won't look much different from the first (no grinding it out).
4.  Use a weight you can control.  The positive portion of a rep should be explosive, while the negative should be controlled.  Yes, even the last rep of a set (no grinding).
5.  Reps and sets are less important.  Getting a pump, and feeling the muscle on every rep is more important.  If you stop feeling the muscle, then you should end your exercise or workout.

Which is better?

First of, you're confusing HIT with the heavy weight school of thought. What you wrote on the first list is basically what the HIT dogmatic zealots preach, which we all know is a bunch of bull. There is no need to go to failure all the time, its actually counterproductive. Imo no need to keep a log either. 5-8 rep range is good, but too limited, 5-15 works better as it offers more variety for growth. The only aspect they're correct with is the constant weight progression part.
Something you aren't realizing is that all the pros you listed move some serious weight, regardless of their training "mentality", you aren't going to see someone their size only squatting 2 plates aside or benching 1 plate or curling only 88 lbs, etc.
Of course its not only a matter of moving the heaviest weight, as a certain amount of volume is needed for fatigue/TUT. Which is why the most extreme HIT routines fail.

Another thing is natural vs enhanced. Basically from what I read, guys on hormones can get bigger without getting stronger, but a natural cannot.

An example, say you have 2 twins and both want to get bigger. At first both press 1 plate each side and a year later one of them is still pressing 1 plate or just a little more, while the other worked his way up to 3 plates...who do you think would be bigger? Its pretty easy to see.

[tbombz]

Agreed but why stay away from failure?

How will you know what you can put up with if you dont push the boundaries? How to you know when to up the weights? If you never try for more youll be at the same weights and the growth stagnates right?

From a natural point of view this is..

i said stay away form failure. i didnt say dont push yourself. you should push yourself, but you should always stop your set before you reach the point of failure. going to that point causes unnecessary damage to the muscle, stress to the cns, lactic acid buildup, etc.  you dont want to break your body down, you want to stimulate growth. causing all that damage and stress only reduces your ability to recover as your body has to first deal with repairing itself instead of focusing on growing. try it out and be amazed.

[Jaime]

  Fat can't move hundreds of pounds, dummy. Fat tissue doesen't generate force...

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Mass moves mass. Or is it just a coincidence that most powerlifters bulk up well past their bodybuilding physiques in to fatties.

[Your Average GymRat]

I knew a guy who took third in the Gold's Gym Classic in 91 and he swore by pyramids.Worked for my 17's.

[wild willie]

it is not about lifting light weights.....it is about moderate weight under control.....squeezing and tensing the muscle and focusing on the mind/muscle connection.


i am not saying curl 25 pound dbs for endless reps.....rather 40-45 pound dbs for 12 good solid reps....tensing the muscle and getting the blood into the bis.....or instead of benching 405 for 5 reps....bench 275-315 for 10-12 reps and concentrate on the chest.....with the back arched and work the pecs.....not heave weight up to look like you are busting your ass....make sure the time under tension is what you are focusing on....these are not cupcake training methods....they are time tested and worthwhile ways of growing and developing the physique......on a side note...

there are many blokes in the gym that bench 405......and squat 500-600 pounds.....who are less than built.....moral of the story.....work your muscles not your ego.....choice is yours.

[GroinkTropin]

Juice does not strengthen tendons and ligaments in contrast to rapid muscle growth. This is why so many of the Pro's keep tearing up their shit.


There is no direct scientific answer to "what works best" except for what works best for you ~ right now.


Try everything. How else will you know?


It's just like the daily protein question: High or low? It depends. How do YOU respond? How would you know unless you tried both high and low for a time?


So much of bodybuilding is ambiguous and, of course, genetic.


There is no objective answer, especially when you are boat-loading and mega-dosing random types of gas.


Everyone say's something different. The only objectivity is going to be within yourself. Screw everyone else.

You are not totally correct. SOME steroids will increase collagen synthesis. EQ to a large degree, Deca and Var to a lesser degree, as well as primo. GH is the mother of all of them of course. The trick is to stack test/tren/winny etc, which make tendons weaker, with something like the aforementioned so that you balance everything out. Also cissus stacked with chondroiton and what not will help quite a bit.

[suckmymuscle]

Mass moves mass. Or is it just a coincidence that most powerlifters bulk up well past their bodybuilding physiques in to fatties.

  No, it doesen't. Muscle moves weight because it contracts, thus generating force. This is simple deductive logic. Fat does not generate force. If it did, then those 1,000 lbs morbidily obese people would be the strongest people in the World.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Dr Dutch]

  No, it doesen't. Muscle moves weight because it contracts, thus generating force. This is simple deductive logic. Fat does not generate force. If it did, then those 1,000 lbs morbidily obese people would be the strongest people in the World.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Muscles with more fat in them seem to be stronger. I read the explanation once, but I donīt remember it right now. Was something with the stability of the fibrils or something....

[suckmymuscle]

Muscles with more fat in them seem to be stronger. I read the explanation once, but I donīt remember it right now. Was something with the stability of the fibrils or something....

  This goes against logic, since I don't see how stability of the myofibrils would make them contract harder. In fact, myofibrils contract on an all-or-nothing manner, so it can't possibly be because of this. But maybe what you mean is that having fat between fibers somehow makes more fiber available for moving the weight rather than balancing it. This seems logical, but I would need to see evidence for that.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Rambone]

He means 1-2 reps away from failure.

Thats what im trying to do lately, after reading tbombz posts..

although i sometimes still go to failure I significantly reduced the "failed reps" in my workouts.

I've been staying 1-2 shy of failure while staying in the 6-15 rep range and pyramiding up for the past 3 weeks after doing years and years of training to failure. All I can say is I wish I had switched over sooner. I've gotten a lot stronger and kept the same routine to gauge gains. My problem with failure training is I'll go all out on that first set of an exercise and my strength would be zapped.

[wild willie]

I've been staying 1-2 shy of failure while staying in the 6-15 rep range and pyramiding up for the past 3 weeks after doing years and years of training to failure. All I can say is I wish I had switched over sooner. I've gotten a lot stronger and kept the same routine to gauge gains. My problem with failure training is I'll go all out on that first set of an exercise and my strength would be zapped.

X2

[Papper]

I've been staying 1-2 shy of failure while staying in the 6-15 rep range and pyramiding up for the past 3 weeks after doing years and years of training to failure. All I can say is I wish I had switched over sooner. I've gotten a lot stronger and kept the same routine to gauge gains. My problem with failure training is I'll go all out on that first set of an exercise and my strength would be zapped.

interesting. still do not fully grasp how you know when you're 1-2 reps from failure. sometimes i fail unannounced, sometimes I can do more than I think, the day form is different etc. And I feel like I have energy left and like I didn't push myself enough if I stop after a effortless rep. i usually go to a failed or almost failing rep.

[Rambone]

interesting. still do not fully grasp how you know when you're 1-2 reps from failure. sometimes i fail unannounced, sometimes I can do more than I think, the day form is different etc. And I feel like I have energy left and like I didn't push myself enough if I stop after a effortless rep. i usually go to a failed or almost failing rep.

At first it felt weird stopping early because I pretty much felt programmed to always go to failure or else I wasn't working hard. I never really had that much trouble figuring out when was 1-2 away from failure. When your push on say bench slows down noticeably and where you know you could gut it out and get another rep or two but u would be close to failing, rack the weight.

[GroinkTropin]

Muscles with more fat in them seem to be stronger. I read the explanation once, but I donīt remember it right now. Was something with the stability of the fibrils or something....

Not fat WATER!!! H2O is very good for muscles. The more hydrated a muscle is the better it performs. This is simple physiology, some doctor you are...Fat does nothing for muscle performance, if anything it would decrease it as the fat being living tissue likely steals a bit of oxygen away from the muscle cells.

[kh300]

First of, you're confusing HIT with the heavy weight school of thought. What you wrote on the first list is basically what the HIT dogmatic zealots preach, which we all know is a bunch of bull. There is no need to go to failure all the time, its actually counterproductive. Imo no need to keep a log either. 5-8 rep range is good, but too limited, 5-15 works better as it offers more variety for growth. The only aspect they're correct with is the constant weight progression part.
Something you aren't realizing is that all the pros you listed move some serious weight, regardless of their training "mentality", you aren't going to see someone their size only squatting 2 plates aside or benching 1 plate or curling only 88 lbs, etc.
Of course its not only a matter of moving the heaviest weight, as a certain amount of volume is needed for fatigue/TUT. Which is why the most extreme HIT routines fail.

Another thing is natural vs enhanced. Basically from what I read, guys on hormones can get bigger without getting stronger, but a natural cannot.

An example, say you have 2 twins and both want to get bigger. At first both press 1 plate each side and a year later one of them is still pressing 1 plate or just a little more, while the other worked his way up to 3 plates...who do you think would be bigger? Its pretty easy to see.

I agree, but this is why you SHOULD be keeping a log. I squatted yesterday but I couldnt tell you what my exact poundages were right now. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I like to write it down so the next time I squat I know what to add extra weight to.

I dont think it should be whatever you feel like on that day or whatever machine is open, or some days I'm stronger then others

I make my log book my bitch. Theres definitely a mental aspect to lifting bigger numbers. Ask anyone who has studied karate or any type of mental discipline. When I look at my book and know I gotta xxx amount of weight xx amount of times, I do it every time by prepping it in my mind first.

[cephissus]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I like reading what you all have to say.

Tbombz, it's well known that you stay a couple of reps away from failure, but what are your sets like?  Do you ramp up to one top set?  Do you do multiple sets with the same weight?  How do you determine when to stop?

Seems like a lot of people do set after set with the same weight, trying to totally annihilate the muscle, but I bet you would disagree with this.

[cephissus]

An example, say you have 2 twins and both want to get bigger. At first both press 1 plate each side and a year later one of them is still pressing 1 plate or just a little more, while the other worked his way up to 3 plates...who do you think would be bigger? Its pretty easy to see.

In reality here's what I think what happens:

twin 1 pays more attention to how his muscle feels and doesn't think to annihilate himself.  he ends up benching 1.5-2 plates for very controlled reps and has a nice chest.

twin 2 is obsessed with how much weight he can push, destroying the muscle, every other thought contains the phrase "progressive overload," and ends up benching the 3 plates for a couple shaky reps, has the same chest as twin 1 + joint pain + quits working out due to injuries eventually.

[kh300]

In reality here's what I think what happens:

twin 1 pays more attention to how his muscle feels and doesn't think to annihilate himself.  he ends up benching 1.5-2 plates for very controlled reps and has a nice chest.

twin 2 is obsessed with how much weight he can push, destroying the muscle, every other thought contains the phrase "progressive overload," and ends up benching the 3 plates for a couple shaky reps, has the same chest as twin 1 + joint pain + quits working out due to injuries eventually.

If you get injured your either an idiot or a massive pussy. How many guys do you know that have gotten injured in the gym? and dont use a pro as an example.

Ive never seen a person benching 3 plates that were small. I see guys benching 1.5-2 plates every day at the gym who look like shit.

When I first got really focused on bodybuilding I started going to bevs powerhouse and the first thing I noticed about the big guys I wanted to look like,,was that they were lifting heavy ass weights.

[tbombz]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I like reading what you all have to say.

Tbombz, it's well known that you stay a couple of reps away from failure, but what are your sets like?  Do you ramp up to one top set?  Do you do multiple sets with the same weight?  How do you determine when to stop?

Seems like a lot of people do set after set with the same weight, trying to totally annihilate the muscle, but I bet you would disagree with this.

its taken me along time and alot of experimenting to come to find what works and its a little complicated but ill try to break it down



usually what i do i pick one exercise per body part and do 4 sets total.
 2 sets with a weight that i can do 10-12 reps with, and then 2 sets that i can do 5-8 reps with.
  i use the same amount of weight workut to workout, slowing moving up in the rep range untill i need to increase the weights a bit.
for example ill do 3 lates a side on hammer declines for 10 reps 2 sets, then 4 plates per side for 2 sets 5 reps. next workout i might get 3 plates per side for 2 sets of 12 reps, and 4 plates per side for 2 sets of 6 reps. once i can use the heavier weight for sets of 8 ill increase the weight in bot pairs of sets.
  once or twice a month i will throw in a set or two of a heavy weight that i can only get 2-3 times. i find this can help break a strength/size platue.

it may help to know i split my body up into two workouts, one day is chest shoulders arms, second day is back rear delts traps and legs. ill do abs and calves almost everyworkout though. i generally train 1 day on 1 day off, so each muscle gets hit about every 4th day, sometimes every 3rd.  depends on how im feeing and how much ive eaten.


i stop during my set at the point where it gets very tough to complete a rep, but im not forcing it and i know i could bang out a couple more if i tried.

after doing 4 sets in that manner ill flex the muscle and it will be very tight and hurt a little bit.

for chest back and quads i sometimes add in one more exercise for a a limited amount of sets. for example, i prefer decline hammers for chest but i usually do a couple sets of incline bb press at the end of my workout to keep my upper chest full. for back i like pulldowns but i will usually finish up with a couple sets of either bent over bb rows or deadlifts to keep the thickness up.  for quads i can only really do leg extensions because i have fucked up knees, and i usually allow myself a few more sets on the leg extension (say 5-6 sets instead of just 4), but at the end of my workout ill do some light weight, controlled reps on the hack squat cuz i think it helps keep the entire leg, quad sweep, glutes, hammies all working together smoothly and thick.

[RC Money]

Lift however the fuck works best for you after some experience and whatever results you have to make a desicion from different methods. Also some form of lifting are just more enjoyable to some individual, just be prepared to deal with any consequences that may come from some methods.

[JP_RC]

In reality here's what I think what happens:

twin 1 pays more attention to how his muscle feels and doesn't think to annihilate himself.  he ends up benching 1.5-2 plates for very controlled reps and has a nice chest.

twin 2 is obsessed with how much weight he can push, destroying the muscle, every other thought contains the phrase "progressive overload," and ends up benching the 3 plates for a couple shaky reps, has the same chest as twin 1 + joint pain + quits working out due to injuries eventually.

That is one possibility if twin 2 lifts like an ass. But if both know how to lift in good form and both focus on putting the most tension on the target muscle, then twin 2 will be bigger..always.