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Author Topic: Made so as not to believe: some people just cannot...  (Read 2822 times)
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 01:34:35 PM »

That's not a very reasonable example.  I'm not even sure how to address it.  If you're trying to make an analogy to an imaginary teapot and Christianity, then no, I don't see it.  

Russell's Tea Pot is simple and the analogy is perfect. He is saying that Christianity is essentially a tea pot out in space (or rather its claims) but by dint of history and widespread affirmation throughout history, Christianity and its claims are made 'valid' (though this is only social validation), the substance however is still not there.

I really did not mean to turn this into a debate on the usual.
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 01:37:49 PM »

Actually, this proves my point exactly.

When something illogical is pointed out, you STILL lack the courage to incorporate it.

You've got a built-in backup that allows you to have eternal life, seeing your dead relatives again, etc. that short circuits the balls to realize that your quasi-theory is false.

In a word, it comes down to courage.

People can always use cognitive dissonance in order to comfort themselves, and indeed they do, but these tricks of logic do not a truth make.

If your point is that our bodies are not perfectly designed, and the basis for your point is "vestigial organs," then no you haven't proven your point at all.  All you've done is created a straw man. 

I've looked at a number of aspects of our body and it is just an amazing piece of equipment.  For example, I think I posted in a thread on this board the steps involved in childbirth.  Just incredible.  When I look at the intricate details of our bodies and how they work together, I see perfection.  You see "vestigial organs."  lol 

That isn't to say there aren't abnomralities, etc.   
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 01:40:35 PM »

If your point is that our bodies are not perfectly designed, and the basis for your point is "vestigial organs," then no you haven't proven your point at all.  All you've done is created a straw man. 

I've looked at a number of aspects of our body and it is just an amazing piece of equipment.  For example, I think I posted in a thread on this board the steps involved in childbirth.  Just incredible.  When I look at the intricate details of our bodies and how they work together, I see perfection.  You see "vestigial organs."  lol 

That isn't to say there aren't abnomralities, etc.   


If there are abnormalities, then how can you see perfection?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc</a>
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2011, 01:42:39 PM »

In other words, I wish you would have the courage to admit the obvious, but what will happen to you tomorrow?

You must face all those who share your philosophy and tell them that you have changed. Philosophically speaking, you will have to come out of the closet. At this point in your life, that is out of the question.

But that's just half of it. The other half would be abandoning the false comfort you've acquired.

lol.  Absurd.  I'm entirely comfortable with my beliefs.  Assuming I were to "change" what I believe in, I don't have to justify what I believe or don't believe to anyone.  I don't have to explain anything to friends, family, etc.  That's what happens when you have an independent mind.  

When someone has doubts about who they are, or what they believe, lack self-confidence, etc. they often attack those with differing viewpoints.  That's actually what the atheist movements is all about:  attacking those who believe in God.  

Someone who is truly comfortable with whatever it is they believe, doesn't need to riducle those who think a different way, or believe in different things.  I have a number of atheist and agnostic friends who are like this.  They are smart people, who feel good about themselves, and don't spend time fussing about things they dont' believe in.  
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2011, 01:43:23 PM »

Russell's Tea Pot is simple and the analogy is perfect. He is saying that Christianity is essentially a tea pot out in space (or rather its claims) but by dint of history and widespread affirmation throughout history, Christianity and its claims are made 'valid' (though this is only social validation), the substance however is still not there.

I really did not mean to turn this into a debate on the usual.

So he cockroached his tea pot example from someone else?  lol  
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2011, 01:44:23 PM »

If there are abnormalities, then how can you see perfection?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEl9kVl6KPc</a>

Because I don't believe our bodies were created with abnormalities. 
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2011, 01:46:28 PM »

Vestigial organs is one of Darwin's main tenants of evolution. Guess I stole that one too.

It doesn't much matter, the logic remains in both cases.

The point is, you've got built in mechanisms to suspend logic at your will. When you've factually lost an argument, it becomes a part of 'working in mysterious ways'.

Dawkins also makes the great point that religious people will praise science if and when it bolsters their own argument, then dismiss it as irrelevant when it points to gaping holes in their paradigm.
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2011, 01:48:17 PM »

Reading 'Open Letter to a Christian Nation', by Sam Harris, just checked it out today.

Full of great stuff as well. I highly recommend it.
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2011, 01:52:12 PM »

Ridiculous.  No one is winning or losing any arguments.  This is just a discussion.  And you certainly don't "win" arguments by using absurd hypotheticals.  Or asking a question about "vestigial organs."   

But I do appreciate the psychoanalysis.  Very entertaining to read.   Smiley

Dawkins?  Is that the same guy who believes space aliens could have designed life on earth?  lol   Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2011, 02:49:14 PM »

Ridiculous.  No one is winning or losing any arguments.  This is just a discussion.  And you certainly don't "win" arguments by using absurd hypotheticals.  Or asking a question about "vestigial organs."   

But I do appreciate the psychoanalysis.  Very entertaining to read.   Smiley

Dawkins?  Is that the same guy who believes space aliens could have designed life on earth?  lol   Smiley

Who are you to determine what is or isn't valid in this instance?

So vestigial organs aren't valid? According to you? How do you get to be the person who determines value to other people.
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2011, 02:58:58 PM »

Ridiculous.  No one is winning or losing any arguments.  This is just a discussion.  And you certainly don't "win" arguments by using absurd hypotheticals.  Or asking a question about "vestigial organs."   

But I do appreciate the psychoanalysis.  Very entertaining to read.   Smiley

Dawkins?  Is that the same guy who believes space aliens could have designed life on earth?  lol   Smiley
God is an alien, by definition.

I guess you and Dawkins agree.
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2011, 03:12:03 PM »

God is an alien, by definition.

I guess you and Dawkins agree.

Yes, Dawkins agrees that intelligent design could have been behind the creation of life on earth.  I think it's really funny.   Smiley

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8</a>
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2011, 03:12:47 PM »

Made to believe or not:  I think it's God's desire that all would choose Him and none would perish, so I feel that "made to believe or not" is pretty complicated.

I do believe that in regard to those of us that believe, that even our faith is a gift of God, so I wonder if He bestows the gift on those that He knows want to believe.  Certainly there are those that do not want to believe, I think....



Re: Vestigial Organs:  I believe that God created human's bodies "perfect" before their owners chose sin and it entered the world.  Could that have something to do w/these perceived "vestigial" organs that are seen as useless or having lost their use?  Possibly.  From my understanding sin has affected everything in the world.

In addition, are these Vestigial Organs etc. actually useless or is it possible we have we not yet discovered their usefulness?

Those that quote Darwin's Vestigial Organs as a proof against Intelligent Design, which organs do you think are vestigial?

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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2011, 03:23:08 PM »

Made to believe or not:  I think it's God's desire that all would choose Him and none would perish, so I feel that "made to believe or not" is pretty complicated.

I do believe that in regard to those of us that believe, that even our faith is a gift of God, so I wonder if He bestows the gift on those that He knows want to believe.  Certainly there are those that do not want to believe, I think....



Re: Vestigial Organs:  I believe that God created human's bodies "perfect" before their owners chose sin and it entered the world.  Could that have something to do w/these perceived "vestigial" organs that are seen as useless or having lost their use?  Possibly.  From my understanding sin has affected everything in the world.

In addition, are these Vestigial Organs etc. actually useless or is it possible we have we not yet discovered their usefulness?

Those that quote Darwin's Vestigial Organs as a proof against Intelligent Design, which organs do you think are vestigial?



I am not sure what you mean by not wanting to believe? What does that mean? People who want to believe and can, do so and I know plenty of atheists who would like to believe but cannot (I am not one of them), obviously as I stated at the outset, it is a question of genetics and environment.
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2011, 03:33:54 PM »

I am not sure what you mean by not wanting to believe? What does that mean? People who want to believe and can, do so and I know plenty of atheists who would like to believe but cannot (I am not one of them), obviously as I stated at the outset, it is a question of genetics and environment.

I believe that those who truly seek, will "find" Him.  Meaning, those that truly want to know the truth about God...to know that He is real and to know Him, will eventually end up believing.


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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2011, 03:39:17 PM »

I believe that those who truly seek, will "find" Him.  Meaning, those that truly want to know the truth about God...to know that He is real and to know Him, will eventually end up believing.




I think for nonbelievers the lack of evidence is the biggest issue, for the ones who would like to believe but require evidence that is the crux of the issue but then that is not believing but accepting.
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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2011, 04:17:53 PM »

I think for nonbelievers the lack of evidence is the biggest issue, for the ones who would like to believe but require evidence that is the crux of the issue but then that is not believing but accepting.

Lack of evidence showing the existence of God?  That may be true, because a number of atheists have had bad experiences and believe if God really existed, He would have helped, stopped their pain, etc.

But I will say the standard used by a lot of atheists is not very consistent.  I've discussed this in other threads, but people accept non-faith based beliefs all the time, including the origin of life on earth.  In the clip I posted of Dawkins, he pointedly says "I don't know" when asked how life began. 
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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2011, 04:27:54 PM »

Lack of evidence showing the existence of God?  That may be true, because a number of atheists have had bad experiences and believe if God really existed, He would have helped, stopped their pain, etc.

But I will say the standard used by a lot of atheists is not very consistent.  I've discussed this in other threads, but people accept non-faith based beliefs all the time, including the origin of life on earth.  In the clip I posted of Dawkins, he pointedly says "I don't know" when asked how life began. 

I don't know is a lot more honest (and we don't know) than claiming that the Judeo-Christian god did it. Scientists say they don't know all the time, in fact it is a 'sin' to claim to know when you don't. I think there is a stigma in our society to admitting ignorance and it is a shame.
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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2011, 04:34:56 PM »

I don't know is a lot more honest (and we don't know) than claiming that the Judeo-Christian god did it. Scientists say they don't know all the time, in fact it is a 'sin' to claim to know when you don't. I think there is a stigma in our society to admitting ignorance and it is a shame.

How is it more honest?  It's just different.  I don't know how life began.  I know what I believe (God did it), but I cannot prove it.   

The fact is the belief in how life originated on earth is a faith-based belief.  We don't have evidence.  It cannot be tested.  It isn't scientific, regardless of which theory you believe in.

I'll bump the thread I created about this, but if you read it, I'm not sure you can find anyone who is able to discuss the origin of life on earth from an evolutionary perspective without mentioning and/or ridiculing God, religion, etc. 

I disagree about there being stigma associated with admitting ignorance.  It's actually a sign of intelligence when a person admits they don't something about a particular subject, rather than talking out of their rear end.  That's a virtue.   
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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2011, 04:43:37 PM »

How is it more honest?  It's just different.  I don't know how life began.  I know what I believe (God did it), but I cannot prove it.   

The fact is the belief in how life originated on earth is a faith-based belief.  We don't have evidence.  It cannot be tested.  It isn't scientific, regardless of which theory you believe in.

I'll bump the thread I created about this, but if you read it, I'm not sure you can find anyone who is able to discuss the origin of life on earth from an evolutionary perspective without mentioning and/or ridiculing God, religion, etc. 

I disagree about there being stigma associated with admitting ignorance.  It's actually a sign of intelligence when a person admits they don't something about a particular subject, rather than talking out of their rear end.  That's a virtue.   


Evolution has nothing to do with origin of life though.
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2011, 04:47:52 PM »

Evolution has nothing to do with origin of life though.

That's not the way it's taught.  The "big bang theory" et al. are taught as part of classes that teach macroevolution.  At least they did when I was in school.   
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2011, 05:07:14 PM »

a lot of flawed logic in this thread  Undecided

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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »

a lot of flawed logic in this thread  Undecided



Care to clarify a bit more?
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« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2011, 05:11:19 PM »

a lot of flawed logic in this thread  Undecided



Tell me about it.  lol   Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2011, 07:18:18 PM »

Why do we have vestigial organs?
We don't, just cause you can't pinpoint the function doesn't mean there isn't one, do you have any idea how complex the body is? and literally billions of functions working together simultaneously, we will never learn everything about the body, not in another 1000 years either, silly argument
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