Report: No jobs added in August, economy stagnant, double dip recession,

[Emmortal]

"entitlements" are not the problem with the budget, its the wars overseas combined with the recession. entitlements existed in the late 90's when we had a surplus.  

china can not do anything to retaliate, they can ask for payment but they have no way to force it to happen, and there investors will always buy our loans/bonds because they know they are guaranteed. american bonds are the most secure on the planet.

yes most academics and educated people "lean to the left". that should be a hint.  

We have more and more baby boomers moving into retirement status which there were not as many in the 90's.  Secondly, medicare  costs have skyrocketed, welfare costs have also gone way up.  Entitlement spending is nearly 66% greater than the defense budget which includes the wars.

China has already begun to retaliate by dumping our debt at an ever increasing rate, so has Japan, so has France.  All they have to do is stop buying our bonds which will put us into a grinding halt at the printing press and chuck us completely down the shitter without a single bullet being fired.

This of course wont happen until they decouple themselves from the dollar and replace it with something else for the world currency, which isn't a matter of "if" that will happen, only when it will happen.

Most educated people tend to not comment on subjects they have little understanding of.  They tend to ask more questions and educate themselves further instead of speaking in absolutes like know nothing know-it-alls.

[Primemuscle]

the problem didnt start in 2006, 2004, 2002 or even 2000 it goes back much further than that and while government policies did play a role in letting it happen and facilitating it to some degree a large part of the blame for the recession is to be laid on the backs of greedy individuals, both on wall street and the people who bought homes they couldnt afford betting that the markets would keep on inflating at the same pace.   and thats just the collapse, the reason we cant pull out of this mess is because we lost all of our manufacturing jobs over the past 50 years due to outsourcing and because our education system is entirely fucked up

You've hit the nail on the head here. Unfortunately, people expect, in fact demand a quick fix to a long standing complicated problem. Failing that, they want to fry all those who fail to meet their unrealistic expectations. Some of this is the blame game....blame anyone and everyone else, but don't accept any blame yourself when things go wrong.

People who made the mistake of taking out mortgages and equity loans to finance all those unnecessary luxuries that had nothing to do with the value of their property blame the banks. People who bought McMansions by borrowing more than they could afford to repay and lost everything, blame the banks and now government. People who lived beyond their means and were thus ill prepared for an economic downturn since they had no savings for a rainy day, blame government. When the President can't immediately fix their broken lives, they blame him. It simply is never their own fault. Unfortunately, until folks take responsibility for what happens to them, nothing ever changes.

[Emmortal]

People who made the mistake of taking out mortgages and equity loans to finance all those unnecessary luxuries that had nothing to do with the value of their property blame the banks. People who bought McMansions by borrowing more than they could afford to repay and lost everything, blame the banks and now government. People who lived beyond their means and were thus ill prepared for an economic downturn since they had no savings for a rainy day, blame government. When the President can't immediately fix their broken lives, they blame him. It simply is never their own fault. Unfortunately, until folks take responsibility for what happens to them, nothing ever changes.

Regulation allowed banks to give out risky loans so people were encouraged to apply for loans because of that whole Bush campaign of "Every American Should Own a Home" bullshit.  No doc loans became the norm for many applicants and were pushed through with the government promising to back them knowing full well that they would collapse.  This was sort of the tipping point that started the avalanche we are still in, however the ball got rolling decades prior.

Secondly, if you really wanted to trace back the beginnings of where this all started you can start by looking into Reagan.  He ran a huge campaign about "getting the government off our backs" and "less government" propaganda which really meant more government and the encouragement of debt burden increase for househoulds.  In the 70's the average household debt was 39% or so of total income.  In the 80's it was 120%. Dual income earning households were now required to hold the same lifestyle single income earners enjoyed just a decade prior.  This change the mentality of the American people and encouraged taking on massive amounts of debt.  That was just the beginning.  There's a whole other slew of shit someone could write several boring novels on as well but that's not for this thread.

[Primemuscle]

We have more and more baby boomers moving into retirement status which there were not as many in the 90's.  Secondly, medicare  costs have skyrocketed, welfare costs have also gone way up.  Entitlement spending is nearly 66% greater than the defense budget which includes the wars.

I am slightly too old to officially qualifiy as a baby boomer, but I am certainly on the cusp of that wave. At sixty-seven, I am retired and I receive SSI benefits. Of course I worked for fifty years, all the while paying into those benefits. I've paid into Medicare since 1965 when this program was first begun.

My employers also paid into these entitlement programs through employer payroll taxes. When employers calculate the cost of an employee, they include all benefits....this usually comes out to about 30% or so of the employee's wages. If employers didn't have to pay benefits and employer payroll taxes, they could pay us folks that money in wages instead.

So to all those who complain that we "baby boomers" are the reason for the current or future deficits, here's my suggestion: pay me back everything I paid into these entitlement programs over the past fifty years with interest and we can call it good.  I will invest this repayment and likely I'll be able to live like a king for the rest of my life plus I can leave those investments to my kids so they will be better off too. I'll purchase all my medical insurance coverage and not just the supplemental insurance I do now and I'll have better control over the plan benefits.

Sound like a plan?

[Primemuscle]

Regulation allowed banks to give out risky loans so people were encouraged to apply for loans because of that whole Bush campaign of "Every American Should Own a Home" bullshit.  No doc loans became the norm for many applicants and were pushed through with the government promising to back them knowing full well that they would collapse.  This was sort of the tipping point that started the avalanche we are still in, however the ball got rolling decades prior.

Secondly, if you really wanted to trace back the beginnings of where this all started you can start by looking into Reagan.  He ran a huge campaign about "getting the government off our backs" and "less government" propaganda which really meant more government and the encouragement of debt burden increase for househoulds.  In the 70's the average household debt was 39% or so of total income.  In the 80's it was 120%. Dual income earning households were now required to hold the same lifestyle single income earners enjoyed just a decade prior.  This change the mentality of the American people and encouraged taking on massive amounts of debt.  That was just the beginning.  There's a whole other slew of shit someone could write several boring novels on as well but that's not for this thread.

You have my agreement on this. However, at some level people must take responsibility for their own choices. My wife and I chose to live conservatively and we are doing just fine today. I have no debt. I know, that's un-American! The irony is that our credit rating is about as high as it gets, something like 819 out of a possible 830 and we don't borrow money. My policy is to only buy what I can afford and to pay off all credit card purchases each month to avoid paying any interest.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

You have my agreement on this. However, at some level people must take responsibility for their own choices. My wife and I chose to live conservatively and we are doing just fine today. I have no debt. I know, that's un-American! The irony is that our credit rating is about as high as it gets, something like 819 out of a possible 830 and we don't borrow money. My policy is to only buy what I can afford and to pay off all credit card purchases each month to avoid paying any interest.

thats like telling someone,,,to not open your hand when money is handed to you,,,,people took responsiblity when estate boomed with becoming agents,,,you know how much money agents were making part time with full time job they had as a side job estate?? They maded roughly over 100k if not more minimall when boom was here,,,so why should they NOT take the money and spend it? We americans forget so easy,,,how bad we had it before when money is thrown at us like this,,,everyones credit rating was like yours during the boom,,,its how you got out of the boom is what matters is the NOW,,,

[Emmortal]

You have my agreement on this. However, at some level people must take responsibility for their own choices. My wife and I chose to live conservatively and we are doing just fine today. I have no debt. I know, that's un-American! The irony is that our credit rating is about as high as it gets, something like 819 out of a possible 830 and we don't borrow money. My policy is to only buy what I can afford and to pay off all credit card purchases each month to avoid paying any interest.

Oh no doubt about it, the mindset of people expecting the government to take care of them at all costs is also another huge issue, one that relates to the very heart of our problems, that hasn't really been brought up in this disucssion.  It's the liberal mindset of take from haven't to take care of the have nots, everyone should be equal and damn you for making so much money, that has fucked our country beyond repair.

And my other post was not a "complaint" about baby boomers or anyone on SS or other programs, it was geared toward the complete and total failure our government has accomplished in running those programs.  Personally I'd be more than happy to just stop paying into it from here on out, pay out what's owed to everyone who is currently on it and call it a day.  I don't even care about the money I've paid into it, use that to pay off people who are currently on those programs and just shut it down.  Maybe even put in a 5 year buffer for people who are about to enter into those programs so they don't feel hosed.  I've invested wisely and my retirement will be taken care of without any help from the government as should everyone else who lives in this country.

[tonymctones]

AND WHAT WAS GOING IN 2000 TO 2007 THEN??,,,,BUSH DID EXACTLY WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AND THATS WHAT GOT US INTO THIS EMSS,,,the business woners got greedy I got greetdy I was making 5 million,,,a year when bush was in office near end of his term,,,now I make 500k,,profit per year I still get to be lazy,,,and chill,,but I dont get to buy my ferraris and downgraded my home from 5k sq ft to 1700ft,,,and rent storage areas,,,you forget Bush did not put welfare or other hand outs during that period,,,and put business first,,,so you tell me,,,what works,,not bush nor obama,,they are so far left and right of each other,,,we need someone who is somewhat in between thewe two clowns,,

youre looking at things in a vacuum, bush had started 2 wars(iraq unnecissarily), he also had the chickens coming home to roost from repealing glass-steagal...this is one of the main causes of the mortgage crisis.

without the mortgage crisis we wouldnt be in the position we are in right now...

you have to take the entire picture into view, not just a certain part.

[tbombz]

We have more and more baby boomers moving into retirement status which there were not as many in the 90's.  Secondly, medicare  costs have skyrocketed, welfare costs have also gone way up.  Entitlement spending is nearly 66% greater than the defense budget which includes the wars.


other than self defense, education, and basic infrastucture every government program falls into "entitlement".  your combining social secuirty and medicare and others and then comparing it to national defense.  thats a stupid comparison and irreleveant anyways. also welfare spending is such a small % of the budget bringing it up shows your just about talking points and not about substance.



China has already begun to retaliate by dumping our debt at an ever increasing rate, so has Japan, so has France.  All they have to do is stop buying our bonds which will put us into a grinding halt at the printing press and chuck us completely down the shitter without a single bullet being fired.

This of course wont happen until they decouple themselves from the dollar and replace it with something else for the world currency, which isn't a matter of "if" that will happen, only when it will happen.


see, this second paragraph makes your first one irrelevant. lol..   again, talking points and not substance.

Most educated people tend to not comment on subjects they have little understanding of.  They tend to ask more questions and educate themselves further instead of speaking in absolutes like know nothing know-it-alls.

id suggest you take your own advice and stop listening to conservative pundits who understand basic economics in a bubble and cling desperately to the ideology of laissez faire.

[tonymctones]

lol dizzle, did you talk to your professor about businesses and aggregate demand?

[tbombz]

lol dizzle, did you talk to your professor about businesses and aggregate demand?

you have severe difficulties understanding politics outside of the conservative ideology.  business responds to demand. the demand its self stems from consumers. period.  now dont be an idiot and think " ya but without business there wouldnt be any products for consumers to demand so therefore demand is mutually dependant on both consumers and business. " like any good little conservative bitch would.  no. business exists. products exist.  neither are going anywhere, no matter how heavily we tax them or regulate them so long as there is a penny to be made.  demand rests solely on the consumer.  you want jobs, put money in the hands of consumers so they can buy products. then business will increase production and hire more workers. not otherwise.

[tonymctones]

you have severe difficulties understanding politics outside of the conservative ideology.  business responds to demand. the demand its self stems from consumers. period.  now dont be an idiot and think " ya but without business there wouldnt be any products for consumers to demand so therefore demand is mutually dependant on both consumers and business. " like any good little conservative bitch would.  no. business exists. products exist.  neither are going anywhere, no matter how heavily we tax them or regulate them so long as there is a penny to be made.  demand rests solely on the consumer.  you want jobs, put money in the hands of consumers so they can buy products. then business will increase production and hire more workers. not otherwise.

LOL ill take your side step as a yes you did talk to your professor and they set you straight...

no in response to this post, consumers have money right now those that have jobs anyway. You think that if a company can make more "pennies" as you put it by outsourcing jobs they are going to stay here?

hmmmm, lets see make twice as much making our products there or make half as much making our products here?

which one would you do dizzle?

[thelamefalsehood]

Tbombz, Candizzle, Candidate2025, Taylor, etc. world renowned economist, steroid guru, nutrition guru, poloitical guru, enviornmental guru, afterlife guru, etc. etc. all at the ripe old age of 21. And all this from a Northern California school system and junior college in Manteca. Man oh man how did we get so lucky to have you here? Its like we have the next Obama in our midst!!!!!

[Primemuscle]

thats like telling someone,,,to not open your hand when money is handed to you,,,,people took responsiblity when estate boomed with becoming agents,,,you know how much money agents were making part time with full time job they had as a side job estate?? They maded roughly over 100k if not more minimall when boom was here,,,so why should they NOT take the money and spend it? We americans forget so easy,,,how bad we had it before when money is thrown at us like this,,,everyones credit rating was like yours during the boom,,,its how you got out of the boom is what matters is the NOW,,,

Throughout time it we've had boom times and bust times. The good (financial) times don't last forever. People who went through hard times are frequently more conservative during good times when money is flowing freely. I saw this with my father whose parents lost money during the depression (although they were never poor). My maternal grandfather was a high paid lawyer in the 1930's. Even so, my mom remembered them having warm milk with bread in it for dinner on occasion. Her parents were very conservative. As a result my father was relatively careful with money and my mom loved to spend it.

My mom and step-dad lived high on the hog and were seriously in debt while I was growing up. My friends all though my parents were rich because of the big house in Encino. CA with a pool and stables, the Cadillacs and later Lincolns parked in the circular driveway. I knew better. Eventually, when my step-dad's business was in a downturn, my parents did some serious downsizing. By then I was already a married adult with bills of my own. When my step-dad died, my mom had nowhere to go so she moved in with my wife and me. She lived off social security checks and the interest from my step-dad's life insurance policy. This was in the late 1970's and money market accounts were paying 11% interest. She would have (almost) starved trying to live off the interest of such an account today.

When times are good, it is easy to think they will go on forever. Why save money for tomorrow, when you can live like a king today? You mention that the banks were handing out money to people right and left, so why should they turn it down? Banks are still trying to loan money to people who are low risk. I know, Iconstantlyanty being asked to refinance the house or take out a loan for improvements, etc....with no fees and no closing costs. We would like to remodel the kitchen....and we will, when we have the cash to do it.

Just because money is offered doesn't mean you have to take it. Nothing is for free. Sure folks in real estate were making bigcommissionsisions and mortgage lenders were pulling downcommissionsisions too. Too bad they didn't consider that sometime that might change and throw some of those earnings in to relatively secure investments or even just a savings account. Instead of buying McMansions, if people had parlayed their inflated real estate earnings into income property they could be doing OK today. Rentals are in short supply right now because a lot of folks cannot afford to buy property.

Like you, I believe one should live in the present. However, this doesn't mean that one should not prepare for the future or reflect and learn from the past. No doubt, there will be folks who will do things differently for the rest of their lives because of the experiences they have found themselves in today.

[Primemuscle]

Oh no doubt about it, the mindset of people expecting the government to take care of them at all costs is also another huge issue, one that relates to the very heart of our problems, that hasn't really been brought up in this disucssion.  It's the liberal mindset of take from haven't to take care of the have nots, everyone should be equal and damn you for making so much money, that has fucked our country beyond repair.

And my other post was not a "complaint" about baby boomers or anyone on SS or other programs, it was geared toward the complete and total failure our government has accomplished in running those programs.  Personally I'd be more than happy to just stop paying into it from here on out, pay out what's owed to everyone who is currently on it and call it a day.  I don't even care about the money I've paid into it, use that to pay off people who are currently on those programs and just shut it down.  Maybe even put in a 5 year buffer for people who are about to enter into those programs so they don't feel hosed.  I've invested wisely and my retirement will be taken care of without any help from the government as should everyone else who lives in this country.

What some people don't get is that for many people, i.e. those of us who've paid into the system all their working lives, SSI, SSD and Medicare are not government handouts, they are a return on mandatory investments we've made, some for many, many years. My wife and I don't rely solely on SSI and Medicare to get by, we have other investments which have done fairly well over the years. It is the combination of those investments, the mandatory ones and the discretionary ones that are providing us with a comfortable life in our senior years.

Like you suggest, if SSI were phased out, people would need to make other plans for that portion of their retirement income. However, many would not, unfortunately. The United States is hardly alone in providing for those who cannot or did not plan well enough to provide for themselves. In fact, many other countries around the world have more extensive "entitlement" programs than the U.S. does. Some of these countries are struggling too to keep up with the sheer number of people accessing entitlement programs today.

I am going to digress some here. In my opinion, a big part of the "problem" is that humans have overpopulated this planet. Sooner or later, something has to give. Science has advanced to the point were there are few diseases or viruses that take out large numbers of people, thus reducing the population. Natural disasters take only a small toll on the world population as do wars. So here we are, all 6,959,727,158 of us in the world, with 312,132,152 of us living in the U.S. all needing food and shelter, driving our cars here and there and generally sucking the earth and economies dry. And yet, there are those who still argue against birth control and abortion....amazing!

[Primemuscle]

It's the liberal mindset of take from haven't to take care of the have nots, everyone should be equal and damn you for making so much money, that has fucked our country beyond repair.

I am a liberal, I suppose. However, I do no entertain an idea that we are all equal in any way. I don't begrudge those who have a lot more money than I do. Contrary to what some people believe, one can be liberal and not subscribe to the Communist idealogy....which has shown not to work anyway, because it goes against the way humans operate. Despite how civilized we may become, we are still bound by the laws of nature which are survival of the fittest.

[tbombz]

LOL ill take your side step as a yes you did talk to your professor and they set you straight...

no in response to this post, consumers have money right now those that have jobs anyway. You think that if a company can make more "pennies" as you put it by outsourcing jobs they are going to stay here?

hmmmm, lets see make twice as much making our products there or make half as much making our products here?

which one would you do dizzle?

of course not, whats your point idiot?

[Emmortal]

id suggest you take your own advice and stop listening to conservative pundits who understand basic economics in a bubble and cling desperately to the ideology of laissez faire.

I don't follow conservative economics, I follow the markets. Unlike you who has had zero experience in the world and hasn't even made it out of school, I've ran businesses, paid employees, invested in the market for over a decade.  You on the other hand throw out buzz words you learned from your eco prof in some barely legible response which has nothing to do with the contents of anyone's posts.  You blurt out some political nonsense and ignore the facts in a pathetic contrived attempt at proving your point which fails miserably.

Your response just proves you have nothing valuable to retort with.  Come back and play again when you've actually experienced how the real world works, not through the pigeon-hole of your classroom window.  Discussing economics with you is likened to explaining phylogenetics to a watermelon.

[tonymctones]

of course not, whats your point idiot?

you see moron businesses innovate, when they create innovative products or innovative features on new products they stimulate demand.

do you think the demand for cars was there before the invention of the car?

how about cell phones?

now back to the other point you made about regulation and taxes...

if youre a business and you can make more money by producing your product somewhere else as opposed to building it here in the US b/c of taxes and your actions adhering to regulations, which country would you make your product in?

[GigantorX]

The democrats were in power in the House and Senate since 2006. Obama in the White since 2008. Do the freaking math.

Math is hard and racist.

[240 is Back]

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