Time to put the UAW Union in their place

[tbombz]

anyone who works has a right to make a wage which they can support their family with.

no one has a right to make obscene amounts of money, not when there are millons of americans and billions of humans who are in desperate need of it.

[AC Slater]

tbombz, please list us your work experience and titles.

So answer me this question, and name actual dollar amounts please.

How much money should the collectors who work at my company earn per year?  All they do is sit at a computer, the computer dials a customer's number, and the collector attempts to get them to pay.

How much should the executives and vp's at my company earn?  They all have an MBA/MS/Ph.D. in a quantitative field and work at least 60 hrs per week.  I regularly see emails from my boss being sent at 6:00 am, 8:00 pm, etc.  Even when not at the office they are getting shit done at their homes.

[tonymctones]

anyone who works has a right to make a wage which they can support their family with.

no one has a right to make obscene amounts of money, not when there are millons of americans and billions of humans who are in desperate need of it.

so you think a part time high school student worker has the right to make enough to support a family?

no they have a right to get paid a wage, the wage is consumerate to their worth to the company. This is why those with special skills get paid more b/c they contribute more value to the company and that goes for laborers with special skills as well like welders.

what your doing is taking your idea of fairness which isnt based in reality and trying to make it fit into real life situations.

Just like AC's question for you, if the collectors only get a little less then the CEO etc. The vast VAST MAJORITY of ppl are going to choose to be collectors...again reality!!!

[Hereford]

anyone who works has a right to make a wage which they can support their family with.

no one has a right to make obscene amounts of money, not when there are millons of americans and billions of humans who are in desperate need of it.

No one has a right to anything. If you are worthless, you shouldn't get paid squat.

If this means you starve, then maybe you should have tried a little harder prior to that point.

[tbombz]

tbombz, please list us your work experience and titles.

So answer me this question, and name actual dollar amounts please.

How much money should the collectors who work at my company earn per year?  All they do is sit at a computer, the computer dials a customer's number, and the collector attempts to get them to pay.

How much should the executives and vp's at my company earn?  They all have an MBA/MS/Ph.D. in a quantitative field and work at least 60 hrs per week.  I regularly see emails from my boss being sent at 6:00 am, 8:00 pm, etc.  Even when not at the office they are getting shit done at their homes.

depends on the cost of living in the area.  could be anywhere from 25,000-40,000 per year after taxes for the collectors. 100,000-150,000 for the vps. those are reasonable.

so you think a part time high school student worker has the right to make enough to support a family?

no but a full time worker does

No one has a right to anything. If you are worthless, you shouldn't get paid squat.

If this means you starve, then maybe you should have tried a little harder prior to that point.

you dont have a right to police protection. if someone kills your family and steals all your money and possessions, oh well guess you should have prepared better.

[Bindare_Dundat]

anyone who works has a right to make a wage which they can support their family with.

no one has a right to make obscene amounts of money, not when there are millons of americans and billions of humans who are in desperate need of it.

All this time you spend pissing and moaning you could be doing something to earn a million dollars plus a year and give it away to charity or share it with possible employees or some shit.

[tonymctones]

depends on the cost of living in the area.  could be anywhere from 25,000-40,000 per year after taxes for the collectors. 100,000-150,000 for the vps. those are reasonable.

 no but a full time worker does

 you dont have a right to police protection. if someone kills your family and steals all your money and possessions, oh well guess you should have prepared better.

and how did you come up with those arbitrary numbers dizzle?

so what does "raise a family" mean to you dizzle?
a 250k house and enough to raise 3 kids or leaving in an apartment with enough to pay for a spouse and no children...

what do you think gives you the right to tell others what they should pay ppl?

actually you do have a right to police protection

[tbombz]

All this time you spend pissing and moaning you could be doing something to earn a million dollars plus a year and give it away to charity or share it with possible employees or some shit.

i could help a few people but on the world stage i couldnt be blip on the radar. the government has to make big changes. individuals can not.

and how did you come up with those arbitrary numbers dizzle?

so what does "raise a family" mean to you dizzle?
a 250k house and enough to raise 3 kids or leaving in an apartment with enough to pay for a spouse and no children...

what do you think gives you the right to tell others what they should pay ppl?

actually you do have a right to police protection

they arent really arbitrary, i came up with those figures based on the kind of spending/consuming that would be reasonable for each.

raise a family...  enough to to pay for a decent home or apartment, a spouse, and one or two children. 

i dont think the government has the right to interfere between two individuals, but the government can tell business's what to do as the actions of business effect everyone, regardless of whether the people support their actions.


explain to me why you have a right to police protection. 

[tonymctones]

All this time you spend pissing and moaning you could be doing something to earn a million dollars plus a year and give it away to charity or share it with possible employees or some shit.

its much easier to bitch and moan about not being paid a "fair" wage for your work than it is to get an good education and work hard to move up...

[tonymctones]

they arent really arbitrary, i came up with those figures based on the kind of spending/consuming that would be reasonable for each.

raise a family...  enough to to pay for a decent home or apartment, a spouse, and one or two children. 

i dont think the government has the right to interfere between two individuals, but the government can tell business's what to do as the actions of business effect everyone, regardless of whether the people support their actions.


explain to me why you have a right to police protection. 

and you decided what was "reasonable"? again arbitrary...

so a person mowing lawns full time should make enough to buy a decent house, raise two kids and support a wife? LMFAO

The govt can set standards and they already have its called the minimum wage...

explain to me why they dont have a right to police protection

[tbombz]

and you decided what was "reasonable"? again arbitrary...

so a person mowing lawns full time should make enough to buy a decent house, raise two kids and support a wife? LMFAO

The govt can set standards and they already have its called the minimum wage...

explain to me why they dont have a right to police protection

i was asked what i though they should get paid, so i came up with reasonable numbers.

if a person is mowing lawns 5 days a week 9 hours a day, hell yes they should make enough to support their family. i didnt say buy a home. and the figure i provided is as low as 25k per year.

the minimum wage is not a liveable wage.  full time minimum wage salary after taxes = about 13k a year. try living on that 

you cant assume you have a right to anything. first you must set a standard as to what the government should be doing. something along the lines of "protect you from death", "provide basic services", "promote the welfare of society".. etc.    tell me what you think we have a right to, that will from now on in this thread function as your thesis as to what the government should be doing... and it can not be a list of programs, but a general statement about what the role of government is. we can begin from there.

[tonymctones]

i was asked what i though they should get paid, so i came up with reasonable numbers.

if a person is mowing lawns 5 days a week 9 hours a day, hell yes they should make enough to support their family. i didnt say buy a home. and the figure i provided is as low as 25k per year.

the minimum wage is not a liveable wage.  full time minimum wage salary after taxes = about 13k a year. try living on that 

you cant assume you have a right to anything. first you must set a standard as to what the government should be doing. something along the lines of "protect you from death", "provide basic services", "promote the welfare of society".. etc.    tell me what you think we have a right to, that will from now on in this thread function as your thesis as to what the government should be doing... and it can not be a list of programs, but a general statement about what the role of government is. we can begin from there.

and my point is your basis for believe is based on your idea of "fairness" not in reality...

the thing is the minimum wage isnt meant to support a family, but if you take your 13k number and multiply it by two then you get 26k which is above your arbitrary number

LOL I assume youre going off of something you learned in a business law class or something? something about alaska or some northwest state where a lady got murdered and the supreme court decided that the state doesnt have to provide services?

if you are and going of your other elementary posts on the economy and business I assume its straight from your lib professor. Ask yourself this, why are ppl able to sue and win when the police dont act?

[Fury]

depends on the cost of living in the area.  could be anywhere from 25,000-40,000 per year after taxes for the collectors. 100,000-150,000 for the vps. those are reasonable.

 no but a full time worker does

 you dont have a right to police protection. if someone kills your family and steals all your money and possessions, oh well guess you should have prepared better.

Actually, you do have a right to police protection, you stupid fuck. That's why we pay taxes to our local govt. Part of what those taxes go towards include things like a police force, firemen and working roads.

Stay in junior college, kid. Freshman Econ isn't the be all, end all.

And who are you to dictate what a private company or public company whose shares you don't own pays their employees?

[Hereford]

Actually, you do, you stupid fuck. That's why we pay taxes to our local govt. Part of what those taxes go towards include things like a police force, firemen and working roads.

Stay in junior college, kid. Freshman Econ isn't the be all, end all.

mmmmmm, as much as it pains me to do so, I'm a have to agree with Taylor on this one.  Cops aren't around to protect you, they are around to protect the government. Next time you get burglarized, see how long it takes the cops to show up, if they show up at all. Then take of note of what they do for an 'investigation'.  Now go bulgrarize city hall and see what the response time is.

[Fury]

mmmmmm, as much as it pains me to do so, I'm a have to agree with Taylor on this one.  Cops aren't around to protect you, they are around to protect the government. Next time you get burglarized, see how long it takes the cops to show up, if they show up at all. Then take of note of what they do for an 'investigation'.  Now go bulgrarize city hall and see what the response time is.

Our taxes go towards paying for that police force. Regardless of whether they actually "protect" you isn't the point. Are they there to provide 24/7 round-the-clock protection? Of course not. Are they there to respond to your house being robbed or whatever? Yes.

However, where I live if I were to call the cops I guarantee there would be a car at my house within a half hour (or less if it's something serious). I've had the cops from my town show up to unlock my car after I locked the keys in it once during the winter while it was warming up and I even had the fire department pump my basement when it flooded during Hurricane Irene three weeks ago. That was paid for with my tax money.

[tbombz]

and my point is your basis for believe is based on your idea of "fairness" not in reality...

the thing is the minimum wage isnt meant to support a family, but if you take your 13k number and multiply it by two then you get 26k which is above your arbitrary number

LOL I assume youre going off of something you learned in a business law class or something? something about alaska or some northwest state where a lady got murdered and the supreme court decided that the state doesnt have to provide services?

if you are and going of your other elementary posts on the economy and business I assume its straight from your lib professor. Ask yourself this, why are ppl able to sue and win when the police dont act?

no dumbass, im trying to get you to realize something, before you can say what the government should or shouldnt do you have to develop some kind of general rule for the proper role of government.

anything you say after this point , unless you first come up with your thesis as to the proper role of government, is null.

Actually, you do have a right to police protection, you stupid fuck. That's why we pay taxes to our local govt. Part of what those taxes go towards include things like a police force, firemen and working roads.

Stay in junior college, kid. Freshman Econ isn't the be all, end all.

And who are you to dictate what a private company or public company whose shares you don't own pays their employees?

explain to me why you have a right to police protection.  

and then ill answer why the government can regulate the actions of business. which should be common sense  

mmmmmm, as much as it pains me to do so, I'm a have to agree with Taylor on this one.  Cops aren't around to protect you, they are around to protect the government. Next time you get burglarized, see how long it takes the cops to show up, if they show up at all. Then take of note of what they do for an 'investigation'.  Now go bulgrarize city hall and see what the response time is.

no dipshit, thats not at all where i was going.  police response time is actully pretty good in most areas anyways. and as tony pointed out, if the police dont respond you are able to sue.

[Fury]

United States
Main article: Property tax in the United States

In the United States, property tax on real estate is usually levied by local government, at the municipal or county level. Rates vary across the states, between about 0.2% and 4% of the home value.[7] The assessment is made up of two components—the improvement or building value, and the land or site value. In some states, personal property is also taxed. The property tax is the main tax supporting local education, police/fire protection, local governments, some free medical services, and most of other local infrastructure. Also, many U.S. state and local jurisdictions impose personal property taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax


Stay in college junior college. My property tax dollars give me the ability to call my town's police when I need them and also allows me to expect them to respond (which they do).



By the way, you're not in government so whatever you think they can do to regulate business is irrelevant. I was specifically referring to you, a 20-something junior college student who thinks he can get an econ degree without having to use anything beyond basic arithmetic. 

[tbombz]

completely irrelevant.

your argument is that you have a right to police protection because there are taxes in place which go directly towards that goal.

which means that if there wasnt a tax in place for that purpose, you wouldnt have a right to that service.. and thus no tax could have ever been created to begin with being that you dont have any inherent right without a pre existing tax in place.

since taxes are developed in order to fund programs that are deemed appropriate roles of government before said tax comes into being... that means there first has to be some kind of general rule as to what the proper role of government is, and within that rule said program must be included.


so...   if youd like to get back on topic, please explain why you have a right to police protection?

[Fury]

You're really going to argue your point like that while at the same time making a claim like this:

anyone who works has a right to make a wage which they can support their family with.

no one has a right to make obscene amounts of money, not when there are millons of americans and billions of humans who are in desperate need of it.

You just refuted your own argument.  

I have a right to police protection because there is no way for me to avoid paying my property taxes. Because I pay said taxes to my town every year, I am entitled to the use of the services those tax dollars provide. You can try to weave your way around that anyway you like but you won't successful argue against it.

"The proper role of government". Hahahaha. Could you grasp any more?




So just out of curiosity, where does one "get the right to make a wage they can support a family with"?

[tbombz]

i didnt refute my own argument dumbass

i have my own idea of what the proper role of government is and regulating business in a way that guarantees any full time worker can provide for his family is part of that.

you on the other hand have not said what you think the proper role of government is you have just asserted that you have a right to police protection with absolutely no reason why except that you pay taxes which go to that service.

im contending that you can not come up with a general rule for the proper role of government that would include such services as police, fire, roads, education, etc and at the same time would exclude regulations that ensure workers can provide for their families.

is that really so hard to understand? do i need to spell out everything for you?  i had a higher regard for the institutions of the east coast than this..

[tbombz]

I have a right to police protection because there is no way for me to avoid paying my property taxes. Because I pay said taxes to my town every year, I am entitled to the use of the services those tax dollars provide. You can try to weave your way around that anyway you like but you won't successful argue against it.

by this you would have to admit that in a scenario where no such tax existed, you would thus have no right to police protection.

[Fury]

i didnt refute my own argument dumbass

i have my own idea of what the proper role of government is and regulating business in a way that guarantees any full time worker can provide for his family is part of that.

you on the other hand have not said what you think the proper role of government is you have just asserted that you have a right to police protection with absolutely no reason why except that you pay taxes which go to that service.

im contending that you can not come up with a general rule for the proper role of government that would include such services as police, fire, roads, education, etc and at the same time would exclude regulations that ensure workers can provide for their families.

is that really so hard to understand? do i need to spell out everything for you?  i had a higher regard for the institutions of the east coast than this..

Your own idea of what the proper role of government is means fuck all. Is that really what your basing your entire argument around? An opinion? This is why you're in junior college.

My claim that the property taxes I'm legally obligated to hand over year entitles me to the use of my town's police force when I have a legitimate need for them certainly carries more weight that your asinine claim that "every man has a right to a wage that can support a family".

I hand over my money and in return the government provides me with a service. Pretty simple, really.

by this you would have to admit that in a scenario where no such tax existed, you would thus have no right to police protection.

But it doesn't apply in my scenario so your argument is pointless. I have the right to police protection. Trying to paint this entire country under one broad brush stroke gives your argument no weight.

[tbombz]

Your own idea of what the proper role of government means fuck all. Is that really what your basing your entire argument around? An opinion? This is why you're in junior college.

My claim that the property taxes I'm legally obligated to hand over year entitles me to the use of my town's police force when I have a legitimate need for them certainly carries more weight that your asinine claim that "every man has a right to a wage that can support a family".

I hand over my money and in return the government provides me with a service. Pretty simple, really.

  oh brother you sure are simple

yes, im basing my opinion on... my opinion.  thats what this whole discussion is about, sharing our opinions. dipshit  

now , because im actually interested in sharing and heraing others opinions, im going to try and help you out.  

imagine a time when taxes didnt exist. there was no government. you are responsible with developing a government, top to bottom.  you first need to come up with an idea about the proper role of government, what it shouldnt do and what it should do. put limits and set minimums.   this is what im interested in, and this is what determines whether or not people have a right to police protection, a wage which can support their family, whatever.

so... you obviously think police should be included. and fire and roads you mentioned.  think of all the programs and regulations you support, and all the ones you dont. after coming up with that, develop a short statement about the role your government will play in society.

thanks  

[Fury]

oh brother you sure are simple

yes, im basing my opinion on... my opinion.  thats what this whole discussion is about, sharing our opinions. dipshit  

now , because im actually interested in sharing and heraing others opinions, im going to try and help you out.  

imagine a time when taxes didnt exist. there was no government. you are responsible with developing a government, top to bottom.  you first need to come up with an idea about the proper role of government, what it should do and what it should do. put limits and set minimums.   this is what im interested in, and this is what determines whether or not people have a right to police protection, a wage which can support their family, whatever.

so... you obviously think police should be included. and fire and roads you mentioned.  think of all the programs and regulations you support, and all the ones you dont. after coming up with that, develop a short statement about the role your government will play in society.

thanks  

Hahaha, it's beyond me how you think you can use this reasoning to make the argument that while one isn't entitled to police protection they're somehow entitled to a wage that can support a family. You can play "what ifs" all you want (economics is very good at this) but it matters not as my property taxes are unavoidable. If I didn't have to pay them and I didn't have any other taxes that funded that said police force then yes, your argument would be correct. However, I do have to pay them so your little theoretical play means nothing.

[tbombz]

But it doesn't apply in my scenario so your argument is pointless. I have the right to police protection. Trying to paint this entire country under one broad brush stroke gives your argument no weight.

but there WAS  time when that tax didnt exist. somebody had to decide that even though people werent paying taxes to fund police, that people had a right to police and so they created the tax. the need, the right to police protection came before the tax which funded it.  so unless your entire view of politics and government is to preserve the status quo indefinitely, you need to develop some kind of thesis as to what the government should be trying to do, in general.