Author Topic: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.  (Read 165134 times)

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2011, 02:32:50 AM »
Pellius, you and I take a lot of crap here. Sort of a permanent 'initiation'. I mean, Goodrum deserves the crap he gets but stellar guys like us should be respected here. When we

don't respond to the taunts and ridicule they step up the nasty campaigns.

bigmc

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #151 on: September 22, 2011, 07:44:45 AM »
pellius and vince make quite the cute couple  ::)
T

dyslexic

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #152 on: September 22, 2011, 07:47:39 AM »
Well, yeah. Truckers with C.B radios are the same. If they don't respond to the nasty call-outs from home base-stations eventually the callers give up and stop.

It takes "self contro"l, something of which most here know nothing about. After all, it is a *bodybuilding* forum where folks are taught moment by moment how NOT to exert self control (in ANY endeavor)

Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #153 on: September 22, 2011, 08:28:39 AM »
Pellius, you and I take a lot of crap here. Sort of a permanent 'initiation'. I mean, Goodrum deserves the crap he gets but stellar guys like us should be respected here. When we

don't respond to the taunts and ridicule they step up the nasty campaigns.



Oh give me a fucking break, Basile, with your holier than thou attitude.  Fact is that you never accomplished anything in the sport of bodybuilding other than winning a show in which you hand picked your own judges and crowned yourself Mr Canada.  The only real contest you ever did was the Mr Australia where you placed dead last. Along with a gym that you opened up using your daddy's money and filming Lee Priest's father's funeral, that pretty much sums up your 69 years of existence on this planet.

Then you have the nerve to criticize my training methods or Coach's when you just admitted have never trained anyone in your entire fucking life.  You shouldn't wonder why no one doesn't take you seriously.


As far as publishing pictures in a magazine are concerned, you couldn't make the back pages of AARP.  Hope that helps.
A

bike nut

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #154 on: September 22, 2011, 09:32:25 AM »
"He's got Betty Davis Nasser eyes" ;D

The Wizard

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #155 on: September 22, 2011, 09:33:50 AM »
I congratulate Vince on ALWAYS getting so many responses. Thats what forums are for.
You're an odd dude Vince but good luck in your quest for larger fat arms.

Bad Boy Dazza

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #156 on: September 22, 2011, 10:22:27 AM »
Vince, I am eagerly following your experiment.  Put these keyboard warriors to shame!

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #157 on: September 22, 2011, 01:47:30 PM »
This is the condition I am trying to duplicate by the time I turn 70 in one year. I know my calves can be bigger and better. That much is certain. It remains to be seen whether I can get the rest of me better. The first part of the project is to get my arms significantly bigger and I should know if that is possible within 2 months. I have been training now for about 2 weeks.

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2011, 01:53:08 PM »
pellius and vince make quite the cute couple  ::)

Shut the fuck up you little bitch.

Awesome handle BTW, "big"mc (oh brother, how fucking lame can you be? How old are you anyway kunt?)

deadz

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2011, 01:58:38 PM »
Shut the fuck up you little bitch.

Awesome handle BTW, "big"mc (oh brother, how fucking lame can you be? How old are you anyway kunt?)
Still trying to own kids 30 years younger than you. ::)
T

doriancutlerman

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2011, 02:31:15 PM »
Go, Vince!

I pinched a nerve and probably had a class-A muscle tear (I suspect in my right triceps) almost a year ago.  Even now, my right side pressing strength is compromised.  It's a shame, too, because I was stronger than I'd ever been :|

Anyway, training has become almost a chore.  I'm 33 and I've been doing this almost 20 years.  After awhile, without the ability to make any progress (apart from getting lean again), I barely care.  And why should I?  I recently took almost 2 months off the gym and lost very little size or strength.  One or two hard workouts and I look about as good as ever have at this weight.

So, you inspired me.  I also decided to start training arms every third day.  But man, you must have the endurance of a marathoner.  In my first Basile Arms-Only session,
I was somewhat limited in equipment (one adjustable dumbbell).  So, I did very strict one-armed curls and one-armed overhead triceps extensions.  I aimed to get 15 reps on the first set of each and keep on until I'd done at least six sets of each exercise, or 12 sets total.

I overestimated my curling strength a little, so the first set saw me curl 90 for 13 R, then x12 L (weights are exaggerated so I don't sound like a twink).  I went on to the triceps movement, really emphasizing a deep stretch.

Then came biceps round 2.  Holy shit!  In spite of a decent amount of rest, that "90 lber." limited me to 7 with the right arm and 6 with the left.  I had to raise my elbow a bit to get those last reps, too.  By the time round 3 came around, I struggled like crazy to get just 5 reps with each arm.  Triceps saw an even greater drop:  my first set, with a comparatively modest 60 lbs. (coughcoughBULLSHITcoughc ough) :D, I managed 25 reps with my good arm.  The second set?  Down to 12 -- and the third, a very hard-fought 6.

Obviously these are not the ideal exercises, and I do think exercise selection can make a measurable difference.  But I tend to disagree with you in as much as one kind of curl or triceps movement is an order of magnitude or more effective than all the rest.  Dips of both varieties, close-grip bench, some kinds of pulley extensions ... they all seem about the same to me in the long run, and I'm not talking about periods when I've "used" either.  It might strike you as overly simplistic, but really, a curl's a curl, and a triceps extension is more or less as effective as any variation thereon.  (I am not talking about what's easiest on the elbows, mind you.  That is a separate issue IMO.)

I've done two workouts so far.  The first resulted in awesome DOMS, but that's no surprise:  of course I'll be sore after not training for a few weeks.  My second workout was a little shorter; in lieu of three sets to failure, I threw in some post-failure techniques and did two sets.  My arms are sore now, 48 hours later, but not very.  Also notable is the fact that after three days' rest, I was barely, if at all, stronger than in the first workout.

I'll keep at it for awhile.  I will note a few things:

*I completely agree with you about focusing on a couple of bodyparts at a time, at least in the context of stimulating maximum growth in those muscle groups.  Apart from obvious things like body mechanics, there's a reason that the guys who bench the most weight aren't also the best squatters and deadlifters:  training all three hard is simply too much for most people to manage in a given training cycle.  

*I'm unconvinced that "big muscles are meant to move maximum resistance for many sets."  Maybe that's true of a predominantly slow-twitch guy, but look at my example.  Yeah, I made up those poundages for fun, but the very real drop-off is significant -- and no amount of "conditioning work" is going to change that.  It's how I've always been; do a set to momentary failure, and -- pardon my language -- my strength is more or less fucked for the bodypart trained.  Even a 10 minute rest interval and second set will see me go from a 315x4 incline (real number, when I was at my best) to 225 for a very hard-fought 9.  Ordinarily, if fresh, I could incline 225 for at least 18 reps, 20 if I bounced it off my chest like a spaz.  That is a BIG difference.  And I will say that I am not a small guy.  Fat by bodybuilding standards, but still small by no means.

But I think you are onto something when it comes to those last, really hard reps that we struggle to complete.  Lots of intense contractions seems to translate to growth.

As such, I submit that the old sets and reps paradigm is outdated.  Instead of doing X sets of Y continuous reps, why not pick a modestly heavy weight -- say, something that limits you to ten -- and, a'la the breathing squat program, do it for twenty or more?

Put another way, say you're doing a curl with your 10 RM.  Grab the weight, strictly curl it and perform the negative smoothly.  Put it down.  Take a couple of breaths.  Pick it back up and repeat.  As time goes along, you're permitted more deep breaths between repetitions.  But the idea is to do as many reps as possible with a given weight before, even with the benefit of a 30 second or more breather, you just can't curl it again.

It seems to me such a method (which I more or less ripped off from the German PITT system) would permit far more intense contractions against a given weight than the standard old 5-6 sets of "do your best!"  And I'm dubious such an arm workout could be successfully conducted every 72-96 hours.  I figure I'd get weaker at that rate, with the possible caveat that switching through a pool of exercises, like Dante Trudell advocates, might mitigate that to the point that I could keep registering strength gains.

On that note, Vince, what do you say about a bigger muscle = a stronger muscle on an individual's basis?  I submit that a drug-free fellow could train himself into the ground and be sore for six months on end, but if he's not stronger on a near workout-by-workout basis, he ain't gonna grow.  

Again, I wish you the best of luck.  You seem to be off to a good start :)

hench

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2011, 02:44:34 PM »
go for it Vince

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doriancutlerman

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2011, 03:05:56 PM »
TLDR

Short-attention span?

Ain't my fucking problem. 

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2011, 03:13:39 PM »
To doriancutlerman. Exercise selection doesn't mean much when you are a beginner. At the intermediate stage it is more important. Beyond that it is paramount. Experience should tell you what the most effective exercises are. I see no point doing ineffective exercises. Most muscleheads do what the guys in the magazines do. How original. You have to find what exercises cause hypertrophy. Fooling around with all manner of techniques to stress the muscle is probably a waste of time. If it were than tricky then few people would ever get results.

The reps thing is something dismissed but is actually quite important. You will find a drop off after the 3rd set. You want to keep all sets over the 10 rep mark and perhaps better to get 15. Why? More pump and less risk of injury. Also, you will avoid cheating. If you cheat then the target muscle is not going to be stimulated properly and you won't get sore and you won't grow rapidly. More strict reps means the time under tension is increased. Going to your limit on each set will satisfy the intensity factor that is also necessary for hypertrophy. At least the sustained kind over a month or two.

The best triceps exercise that I have used is the lying triceps extensions. Nothing else comes close. So farting around doing overhead dumbbell work is not going to cause much growth. Good luck.

For the biceps it would help to have resistance on both supination and flexion. My machine does that. Dumbbell curls done the right way can also achieve something in that regard. Typical biceps machines do not.

The prescription for hypertrophy is something specific and physical. It isn't a matter of playing around with all manner of ideas wondering if perhaps this or perhaps that will work. If you have to do this you are lost.

Howard

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2011, 03:14:45 PM »
Pellius, you and I take a lot of crap here. Sort of a permanent 'initiation'. I mean, Goodrum deserves the crap he gets but stellar guys like us should be respected here. When we

don't respond to the taunts and ridicule they step up the nasty campaigns.

Keep pumping Vince, you help inpsire me to get my ass going. Thanks for posting the training blog I am enjoying it and the pics.

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2011, 03:15:33 PM »
Still trying to own kids 30 years younger than you. ::)

You have a problem with that? How old are you going to be before give up and become everybody's bitch?

Mind your own business little boy.

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #167 on: September 22, 2011, 03:20:02 PM »
Pellius, you make me laugh. If I got angry at every dork putting me down I would be hunting guys down all over the world! That is a waste of time. Praise and blame fall off me like rain from an umbrella.

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #168 on: September 22, 2011, 03:24:19 PM »
Short-attention span?

Ain't my fucking problem. 

Don't quit no matter what. Even if you have to tone it down. When you quit you're only going down hill. And it's always harder to get back up when you get older. You may think you haven't changed when you take a few weeks off but you have. But it doesn't matter. Whether it's a few weeks or a few months eventually you'll start losing it. Nothing wrong with maintaining good condition. No one can expect to keep progressing indefinitely. You started at about the same age I did. So it's now a part of your life. You don't look at it as if you like it or hate it. You just do it because it's a part of you. Like brushing your teeth. You don't ask yourself whether you like it or not or if it stays white when you stop brushing -- you just do it.

You're 33 years old. You're still in your physical prime. Pick a routine and schedule that you can realistically do forever. I trained just twice a week (one day upper/one day lower)for years when I was heavy into Jiu-Jitsu competition. One can do fine on a twice a week program especially when the alternative is nothing and becoming a fat slob.

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #169 on: September 22, 2011, 03:30:21 PM »
Pellius, you make me laugh. If I got angry at every dork putting me down I would be hunting guys down all over the world! That is a waste of time. Praise and blame fall off me like rain from an umbrella.

Not for me. I like mixing it up. I'm worse in real life. You be surprise how cowardly these young punks are when you call them out.

And if I had the time and money I would hunt these guys down. I'd be like the White Kimbo. I'll be a YouTube legend. The worse that can happen is that I'll get my ass kicked and that never scared me. I'd love to show up at SquadFather's trailer park and stand in front of his door whistling "Pop Goes the Weasel."

I'm a fucking maniac! FIGHT ME!

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #170 on: September 22, 2011, 03:34:43 PM »
To doriancutlerman. Exercise selection doesn't mean much when you are a beginner. At the intermediate stage it is more important. Beyond that it is paramount. Experience should tell you what the most effective exercises are. I see no point doing ineffective exercises. Most muscleheads do what the guys in the magazines do. How original. You have to find what exercises cause hypertrophy. Fooling around with all manner of techniques to stress the muscle is probably a waste of time. If it were than tricky then few people would ever get results.

The reps thing is something dismissed but is actually quite important. You will find a drop off after the 3rd set. You want to keep all sets over the 10 rep mark and perhaps better to get 15. Why? More pump and less risk of injury. Also, you will avoid cheating. If you cheat then the target muscle is not going to be stimulated properly and you won't get sore and you won't grow rapidly. More strict reps means the time under tension is increased. Going to your limit on each set will satisfy the intensity factor that is also necessary for hypertrophy. At least the sustained kind over a month or two.

The best triceps exercise that I have used is the lying triceps extensions. Nothing else comes close. So farting around doing overhead dumbbell work is not going to cause much growth. Good luck.

For the biceps it would help to have resistance on both supination and flexion. My machine does that. Dumbbell curls done the right way can also achieve something in that regard. Typical biceps machines do not.

The prescription for hypertrophy is something specific and physical. It isn't a matter of playing around with all manner of ideas wondering if perhaps this or perhaps that will work. If you have to do this you are lost.


Awesome pic, Vince! Seriously. I'm so proud and happy that you're getting fire back. You may not look like Philsulina, Denise or Vicky Martinez but those pics are inspiring. No matter what happens don't quit. Even if it's just a few times a week it's better than nothing.

I do a similar movement for the tris but don't have the bench. On virtually all exercises using a bar I always take a thumbless grip. It gives my wrist more freedom of motion.

Team Basile!

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #171 on: September 22, 2011, 03:39:54 PM »
The critical thing for rapid hypertrophy is sustaining severe DOMS. If you can't do that then you won't be growing much. What to do about it? Well, you have to find something that results in more DOMS. If it is not present you might have to retrain before the 3rd day. We would hope you don't have to retrain daily! HST people recommend retraining every 48 hours and maybe even every 36 hours. They base this time schedule on research that indicates little protein building after that time frame. I discovered that my strength gains were optimal when I trained every 3rd day. Not the 2nd day or the 4th day but the 3rd day. I can't state for certain that hypertrophy follows the same time frame.

I worry about damage to connective tissue. That happened in my first DOMS experiment. I got sore elbows because I placed them on the benches like Larry Scott did. Nope, that friction causes damage to the sheath that goes over the elbow joint. Keep your elbows off all benches including biceps movements. Then I injured my Achilles tendons doing ballistic heel raises with 700 pounds for many, many 60 rep sets. Heck, that was painful but effective. Damage will occur if you sustain the ballistic movements. So, you have to find safe but effective movements. If you don't then you will fail trying to grow bigger than before.

I wondered if ever larger muscles required more effort. If if takes X amount of effort to build 17 inch arms does it take 2 times X to get them to 18? Then does it take 4 times as much to get them to 19? That would partly explain why few guys ever get 19 inch muscular arms. What a pity there is no research about these factors. Joe Weider made hundreds of millions from bodybuilding but his Weider Research Clinic was a sham. A pity he didn't do proper research that would have answered the many questions still unanswered in hypertrophy training.

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #172 on: September 22, 2011, 03:45:36 PM »
I have been designing and building equipment for my gym since 1975. The biceps-supinator machine is the only one in a gym in the universe that we know of. Golds Gym, Venice, doesn't have the lying triceps extension machine. Our gym has three of them and a modified Nautilus Triceps unit that allows you to do the lying movement.

Vince B

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #173 on: September 22, 2011, 03:54:37 PM »
I have an engineering factory. How many bodybuilding champions have one? You need big machines to build gym equipment. Lathes, milling machines, radial drills, bandsaws, big welders, etc. I taught myself to use these machines. Building the biceps-supinator by myself was a challenge. I didn't feel competent to do the tool making of parts. Well, I bit the bullet and did it and was quite pleased with the result. When I installed it in my gym I found I had to make modifications. The machine has had 3 major modifications over the years. I used a lot of stainless steel because I wanted the machine to be durable and not corrode over time. The movement mimics doing dumbbell curls. You can do them together or one arm at a time. You can curl and supinate at the same time or do the movements separately. When you have exhausted the biceps doing curls you can do more via the supination twists. The workouts for biceps can be absolutely brutal.

pellius

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Re: The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.
« Reply #174 on: September 22, 2011, 04:17:21 PM »
When you talk about recovery, like training each muscle group every X number of days, you're talking about localized recovery. One of the things I learned from Jones was the difference between localized recovery and systemic recovery. Recovery of your body as a whole. Remember, even if you do no training at all and are a couch potato you still tap that systemic recovery just being alive. No matter how inactive you are you still need to recover from just being awake by sleeping every night. As physical demands grow surely your need for systemic recovery does as well. So even if you are training each muscle group, say, twice a week, but you are training everyday, the systemic demands far exceed anything you would see in nature. Primitive cultures, animals (both predators and prey), still spend most of their time just loafing around. The king of the jungle -- the male lion, has to be one of the laziest predators on earth. It doesn't even really hunt. Just eat what the lioness catches, sleeps, fucks and defends the pride (which is what it is most designed to do -- which is to fight). Hell, my dog must get about 16 hours of sleep a day. No wonder he's so full of energy.