The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.

[Coach is Back!]

What a sad collection of misfits and know-it-alls we see here. Maximum hypertrophy training can be dangerous for older men with decades of experience. Few of us can do heavy bench presses because of soreness in the shoulders. Sore elbows add to the weak links in the body.
I exceeded my previous maximum arm size last month. Imagine how good that made me feel. I already mentioned that my elbows were tender from soreness through doing very heavy pullovers way back in 1965. My elbows were sore for about 6 months and have been tender ever since. I have been careful this time but exceptional size requires an exceptional effort. I will resume training but proceed slower re adding resistance.
I have proven once again that significant growth is possible at my age so my experiment has been a success. The flotsam is too dense to appreciate my accomplishment.

So all this was about getting a bigger arm? Vince, when it comes to training you need to study and keep up with the times. You're stuck in the 70's.

[Inchdisciple]

If old Vince lost the flab, he would have 14'' arms and weigh 160lbs. His arms are not even close to 18'' now as fat as he is.

[Hurricane Beef !]

So all this was about getting a bigger arm? Vince, when it comes to training you need to study and keep up with the times. You're stuck in the 70's.

Coach is right on the money.

Max arm size exceeded promoted by 50lbs of fat. And sore elbows from pullovers, how the fuck do you do pullovers you fruity old bag of toys???  THE BEEF can see it now, " When I was in Venice in the summer of 70 I trained with all the greats, we had lunch at a German buffet while we discussed various methods of doing pullovers . . . they ( Zabo, Vince, Clayton, Wayne and yes Arnold ) all agreed I was right. And today we are all brothers of the bad elbow (much like your American Skull & Bones.)

Flotsam!!!!

THE BEEF

[Inchdisciple]

Vince Spazall was in Southern California for just one week in the late sixties. He slept in his car and after returned to Canada. He later won the Mr. Canada title against very mediocre opposition. After that he rarely trained did no cardio and became weak and flabby. He remains so to this day. True story

[doriancutlerman]

Weak line-up would be an understatement. 

Yeah, I gotta say, that's pretty pathetic.  I would've done well in that show when I was barely 15 and only had six months of [over]training under my belt.

[wes]

You can`t flex fat!!

[doriancutlerman]

What a sad collection of misfits and know-it-alls we see here. Maximum hypertrophy training can be dangerous for older men with decades of experience. Few of us can do heavy bench presses because of soreness in the shoulders. Sore elbows add to the weak links in the body.
I exceeded my previous maximum arm size last month. Imagine how good that made me feel. I already mentioned that my elbows were tender from soreness through doing very heavy pullovers way back in 1965. My elbows were sore for about 6 months and have been tender ever since. I have been careful this time but exceptional size requires an exceptional effort. I will resume training but proceed slower re adding resistance.
I have proven once again that significant growth is possible at my age so my experiment has been a success. The flotsam is too dense to appreciate my accomplishment.

Vince, with all respect, a few things:

1.  Jetsam, flotsam, jizzum and scatum aside, you didn't actually prove anything.  You say you made X amount of progress and offered a couple of photos, but that is actually less "proof" than Jones offered in the Colorado "Experiment."

2.  You're committing the fallacy of Goal-Post Moving.  Earlier on, you said maximal growth is possible regardless of age.  There's a difference between maximal and significant.

3.  How do you know you exceeded your previous best arm size with the "safety fat" you carry?  You didn't have that fat at your biggest decades ago.  That greatly skews measurement-based results ... when I was 16 and came off a hard diet, I was 171 pounds and quite lean after a week of eating everything in sight, not training and sleeping more than usual.  I think my arms were about 16.25 or a little more.  gH15 would probably say I was on something

Under Mentzer's influence, I decided more of the same was in order; i.e., tons upon tons of food and even less training.  Within a few months, I was 190 pounds and I had 17" arms.  But I was not much stronger and my abs and definition were long-gone.  I slowly dieted back down to 175, really trained my ass off, got a lot stronger, and found my fatter 17" arm was now barely 16.5" :\  

Arthur Jones said you "can't flex fat."  No, but take a bodybuilder with 18" arms and low bodyfat and add 200 lbs. of adipose tissue to him, he'll probably have 26" blubbery arms.

I'm happy for you if you honestly feel you set a milestone, especially at your age, but I do hope that, while you're blasting any naysayers, you realize where some of them are coming from.  A bunch are just contentious, stupid assholes who think it's fun to pick on other people, but I suss just as many had the things I noted in the backs of their minds when they flamed you.  

Besides, you know the lay of the land here  There are times I find it too Wild West-like, but at least it's not dominated by a cult mentality like you might find at most other sites (intensemuscle = Dante worshipers, Ironage = anyone after Haney sucks, yet other sites = MadCow 5x5 or piss off, etc., etc.).  I happen to like Dante, Ironage and MadCow's stuff, but frontier town Getbig is one of the few places in which you can comment on all of them without a jacked-up moderator stifling the discussion.

Hope your triceps heals.  

[doriancutlerman]

You can`t flex fat!!

Damn, you beat me to it, Wes!

In all fairness, I've no doubt Mr. Basile added a bunch of size to his arms after not training for awhile.  Does that lend any credibility to his take on maximum hypertrophy training? 

Honestly, no -- not by my standard.  Take a highly-trained bodybuilder in his late 30s or early 40s, train him in ... whatever DOMS training exactly entails, and if that fellow comes out of it with measurably bigger arms, I might take notice.  I like Vince so I hesitate to bash him, but really, anyone who resumes training after a lengthy layoff will see nice size gains for awhile.  And when we get down to it, while I doubt Vince got fatter during his little experiment, like I said, Wes, you nailed it.  Not that Vince is grossly obese, but I bet sumo wrestlers have really muscular arms under all that fat.  Trick is, we'll never know until they take the fat off -- and the same holds true of someone who carries a small fraction the fat of a sumo, just like Vince.

[Vince B]

Doriancutlerman shows respect so deserves a considered response.

I just had another arm workout. The first effective one is almost a month. So my arms feel okay. I also worked out why I got injured. Over the decades I have evolved a method for training that is quite specific. I deviated from what I advocated and paid the price. You see, old ideas linger no matter what you think. Essentially, the default stimulus for hypertrophy is more resistance. It seems logical that if you keep adding resistance or weight that you will have to grow. If you reach a sticking point the natural thing to do is to add more weight in the belief this will do the trick and start more growth occurring.

My prescription is to aim for 15 to 20 reps for arm hypertrophy. After 3 maximum sets taken to the point of failure you find that the reps drop. If you started with 15 reps you might get 10 to 12 on the 4th maximum set. It partly depends on how much rest you take between the supersets. I tend to take 3 minutes and sometimes a bit more. I don't use the clock. It might be better to do so. Well, last month I was stuck on 18 inches so upped the resistance a plate. The trouble was I was getting only 9 or 10 reps for the first couple of sets. By the 4th set I was lucky to get 7 reps. Herein lies the source of potential injuries. The reps are too low to generate much in the way of a pump so you aren't as protected as you are when you are doing higher reps. Today I aimed at 20 reps instead of adding more weight and by the 4th set my reps were down to 12. That is fine. I really have to follow my method to the T. The trouble is I start getting doubts when my growth slows or stops. Part of the reason was I wasn't using the best apparatus to train on. My gym has my biceps-supinator and I love training on it. Of course, it is easier to use the Nautilus Biceps machine which is adjacent to the lying triceps machines. Those lying triceps machines are superior to the modified Nautilus Triceps lying version.

I will see if 19 inch arms are possible for me. Yes, I am still carrying more fat than I thought I was. I look okay in the mirror but not so good in photos. Reducing the fat will be attempted after I have achieved the size goals.

[The True Adonis]

Doriancutlerman shows respect so deserves a considered response.

I just had another arm workout. The first effective one is almost a month. So my arms feel okay. I also worked out why I got injured. Over the decades I have evolved a method for training that is quite specific. I deviated from what I advocated and paid the price. You see, old ideas linger no matter what you think. Essentially, the default stimulus for hypertrophy is more resistance. It seems logical that if you keep adding resistance or weight that you will have to grow. If you reach a sticking point the natural thing to do is to add more weight in the belief this will do the trick and start more growth occurring.

My prescription is to aim for 15 to 20 reps for arm hypertrophy. After 3 maximum sets taken to the point of failure you find that the reps drop. If you started with 15 reps you might get 10 to 12 on the 4th maximum set. It partly depends on how much rest you take between the supersets. I tend to take 3 minutes and sometimes a bit more. I don't use the clock. It might be better to do so. Well, last month I was stuck on 18 inches so upped the resistance a plate. The trouble was I was getting only 9 or 10 reps for the first couple of sets. By the 4th set I was lucky to get 7 reps. Herein lies the source of potential injuries. The reps are too low to generate much in the way of a pump so you aren't as protected as you are when you are doing higher reps. Today I aimed at 20 reps instead of adding more weight and by the 4th set my reps were down to 12. That is fine. I really have to follow my method to the T. The trouble is I start getting doubts when my growth slows or stops. Part of the reason was I wasn't using the best apparatus to train on. My gym has my biceps-supinator and I love training on it. Of course, it is easier to use the Nautilus Biceps machine which is adjacent to the lying triceps machines. Those lying triceps machines are superior to the modified Nautilus Triceps lying version.

I will see if 19 inch arms are possible for me. Yes, I am still carrying more fat than I thought I was. I look okay in the mirror but not so good in photos. Reducing the fat will be attempted after I have achieved the size goals.

At your age, you probably should consume around 1400-1600 calories max to get ripped.  You will also live a lot longer if you do this now.

[pellius]

What a sad collection of misfits and know-it-alls we see here. Maximum hypertrophy training can be dangerous for older men with decades of experience. Few of us can do heavy bench presses because of soreness in the shoulders. Sore elbows add to the weak links in the body.
I exceeded my previous maximum arm size last month. Imagine how good that made me feel. I already mentioned that my elbows were tender from soreness through doing very heavy pullovers way back in 1965. My elbows were sore for about 6 months and have been tender ever since. I have been careful this time but exceptional size requires an exceptional effort. I will resume training but proceed slower re adding resistance.
I have proven once again that significant growth is possible at my age so my experiment has been a success. The flotsam is too dense to appreciate my accomplishment.

Vince, remember your claim was that age was no hindrance to hypertrophy. In fact, you claim it was an advantage. One of the reasons you cannot, and will not, achieve your previous 1970 era condition is that your body is too old to endure, let alone respond, to the type of training necessary.

And what significant "muscular" growth have your achieve? The arm that you displayed on this thread shows no evidence that it has ever done a any type of training at all. By that I mean if you were walking out and about in a tank top no one in the general public, let alone experience weight trainers, would single you out as someone who lifts weights.

Your claim was that you can achieve, actually exceed, your 1970s condition. I made it a point that this was made very clear. As far as I can tell, judging but what few pictures you have posted, there has been no noticeable change in your physique.

Prove me wrong. I sincerely want you to. You can fool yourself but you can't fool the flotsam at GetBig.

[Vince B]

Pellius, I sense you are trying to avoid buying me dinner when I show up in Hawaii. Yes, while I am carrying some fat it hides the muscle that is there. However, my arms are rock hard and amaze one and all who inspect them. So rest assured that the Flotsam are unable to appreciate the gains that I am making and will belittle my progress. You are made of fairer stuff so I expect you to be fair dinkum.

I have proven to myself that I can grow rapidly at 69 years old. The motivation is there to show the flotsam and I will demonstrate an improvement that will bring tears to Goodrum's eyes. That much is certain. I am not a wannabe but an experienced guy who has been around a long time. Why people question me yet follow gh15 is the stuff of total insanity. I offer a natural way to get big but no one is interested. I would never have believed this would be possible to enlightened individuals. The trouble is many like yourself have gone to the dark side and what a shame that is. I can save myself but no one else. Look upon my works ye mortals, and despair!

[Donny]

Even Ironage Forum give Vince a hard time. I will give Vince one thing he did tell them that he did not want to be in their clique...good thing because they are a bunch of dribbling old farts. I mean how the fuck can a Bible Bashing raving sex pest like Mike Payne be a Mod ? Another joke is Deanna Panting.. she writes all the time about her "Football...Ice Hockey Star Son". The first time i saw his picture i laughed because he is fat as fuck and has red hair. So at least Vince fucked them off and has a bit of sense. Regards to your experiment Vincent, it stands to reason that at your age you will NEVER lose fat unless you eat nothing or do cardio and diet. At your stage in life i would just do 30 mins daily on a good rowing machine and that is it. You will be fitter and lose weight and maybe live longer...leave the big arms to the young guys OK.

[pellius]

Pellius, I sense you are trying to avoid buying me dinner when I show up in Hawaii. Yes, while I am carrying some fat it hides the muscle that is there. However, my arms are rock hard and amaze one and all who inspect them. So rest assured that the Flotsam are unable to appreciate the gains that I am making and will belittle my progress. You are made of fairer stuff so I expect you to be fair dinkum.

I have proven to myself that I can grow rapidly at 69 years old. The motivation is there to show the flotsam and I will demonstrate an improvement that will bring tears to Goodrum's eyes. That much is certain. I am not a wannabe but an experienced guy who has been around a long time. Why people question me yet follow gh15 is the stuff of total insanity. I offer a natural way to get big but no one is interested. I would never have believed this would be possible to enlightened individuals. The trouble is many like yourself have gone to the dark side and what a shame that is. I can save myself but no one else. Look upon my works ye mortals, and despair!

It would be a pleasure to buy you dinner win or lose. You represent an era that many of us futilely still yearn for.

I, nor any of us here, can feel your arms. None of us can verify the progression you have achieved in your training. All we can do is go by the pictures that you have posted and as much as I wish I could detect noticeable physical improvements I simply cannot. Sure you may have dropped five pounds of fat and put on five pounds of muscle but at your starting condition such progress would not be noticeable. Regardless of what measurements, body fat %, or feats of performance you claim you are certainly not even remotely close to the 1970s era conditioning you claim to be able to achieve.

We don't listen to you because what you claim does not comport with reality. None of your theories have ever been proven or demonstrated. That's what you are trying to do now. We listen to gh15 because his methods will improve any physique every time. Every single time. Results will vary but results are guaranteed. Sure you might not approve of his methods but many are far more concerned with real world results than any vague moral or personal convictions on how those results are achieved.

If we could go back in time to earlier last year when you started this experiment and you did the exact same thing except this time you added 6iu/day of HGH, 500mg/wk testosterone enanthate, 500mg/day of nandrolone and maybe one dball a day for old times sake have you any doubt that you would have progress far, far more that you have thus far?

gh15 methods is 100% guaranteed. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. Vince DOMS theory is still unproven. Not everyone has the  time or desire to balonie around with unproven theories. Some are more concerned with real proven results.

I anxiously await your results and sincerely wish what you say were true.
  

[Vince B]

Pellius, I will not submit to the chemical gurus and all the nonsense that they suggest. The chemical path is unproven and certain folly for longevity and health. There are no studies supporting the chemical protocols that you are suggesting and you should hang your head in shame that you were recruited by the evil forces in bodybuilding.

We have the shotgun approach of the chemical cavaliers. No thanks to any of that crap. I have a mission that is far more important and infinitely more noble. We have to save our youth from the dangerous shortcuts proposed by gh15 and others who have no sense or shame. There is a better way to muscle size and I have outlined it on this forum. Why others do not subscribe to it indicates how brainwashed they are. Not one individual here has the capacity to assess my theory and apply it to natural bodybuilding. A few that might be capable are completely brainwashed so fail to see the sense that I have outlined. Nothing short of a complete overhaul of concepts, ideas, theories and methods will save our sport. It is contaminated almost beyond any capacity to be rescued. I plod onward because I have a strange destiny and march to the beat of my own drum. What seems clear and logical to me completely escapes even the above average on the forum. That really is surprising. Then again, I have learned that even university people are mistaken about hypertrophy and have also failed to see the truth that should be obvious once pointed in the right direction. It is almost comical that so many are blind.

I hope to be in Hawaii sometime this year after I visit Canada in the summer over there.

[Bad Boy Dazza]

Vince pls post some new pics.

[wes]

Anybody that just trains arms is training for nothing.

Do the whole body over at least 4 days,eat cleaner,do cardio,live longer, look better.

Tons of guys are lean with muscle and all natural at an advanced age....it`s called bodybuilding,not arm building.

Talk about ridiculous training methods.....GEEZUS!! 

Oh well,at least you are training once again so I guess it`s better than nothing................k ind of!!

[dr.chimps]

Pellius, I sense you are trying to avoid buying me dinner when I show up in Hawaii. Yes, while I am carrying some fat it hides the muscle that is there. However, my arms are rock hard and amaze one and all who inspect them. So rest assured that the Flotsam are unable to appreciate the gains that I am making and will belittle my progress. You are made of fairer stuff so I expect you to be fair dinkum.

I have proven to myself that I can grow rapidly at 69 years old. The motivation is there to show the flotsam and I will demonstrate an improvement that will bring tears to Goodrum's eyes. That much is certain. I am not a wannabe but an experienced guy who has been around a long time. Why people question me yet follow gh15 is the stuff of total insanity. I offer a natural way to get big but no one is interested. I would never have believed this would be possible to enlightened individuals. The trouble is many like yourself have gone to the dark side and what a shame that is. I can save myself but no one else. Look upon my works ye mortals, and despair!

You forgot the following lines of Shelley's Ozymandias, which you quote, Vince. Most apt:

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[wes]

Chimps,waxing poetic and shit! 

[Donny]

Anybody that just trains arms is training for nothing.

Do the whole body over at least 4 days,eat cleaner,do cardio,live longer, look better.

Tons of guys are lean with muscle and all natural at an advanced age....it`s called bodybuilding,not arm building.

Talk about ridiculous training methods.....GEEZUS!! 

Oh well,at least you are training once again so I guess it`s better than nothing................k ind of!!

  100% spot on Wes !

[Vince B]

It is almost embarrassing interacting with the flotsam. Knuckleheads populate this forum and delight in supporting each other's shortcomings. I venture forth convinced by decades experimenting and analyzing the requirements for maximum hypertrophy. My generous nature compels me to share my theories with others but instead of comprehending my ideas the self-styled experts reject them wholesale. I gain no purchase in the shallow closed minds of the wannabe muscle heads. The din generated by the collective nobodies is thunderous. Why on earth I bother is a mystery. You guys wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face.
I am training arms to demonstrate that the principles are right. This has been established more than once.

[dj181]

Ok Vince, I did an "experiment" rather similar to yours this past spring/summer and here are a few things that I "discovered"

1. Muscle growth is localized, as I did just train arms for awhile (without any torso work) and my arms did increase in size a bit, but my torso didn't change

2. Once you lose a good amount of fat and water, you will lose a good amount of arm size as well. For example, at my recent biggest/fattest I had a 38 inch waist and my arms were just a tad over 16 inch arms, and then when I finally did get myself fairly lean my waist was down to 29.5 inches, but my arms shrunk down to 14.25 inches

(again, those were my own personal experiences)

[Hulkotron]

Imbasile

[dr.chimps]

It is almost embarrassing interacting with the flotsam. Knuckleheads populate this forum and delight in supporting each other's shortcomings. I venture forth convinced by decades experimenting and analyzing the requirements for maximum hypertrophy. My generous nature compels me to share my theories with others but instead of comprehending my ideas the self-styled experts reject them wholesale. I gain no purchase in the shallow closed minds of the wannabe muscle heads. The din generated by the collective nobodies is thunderous. Why on earth I bother is a mystery. You guys wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face.
I am training arms to demonstrate that the principles are right. This has been established more than once.

What a self-righteous windbag. Friends and family must shudder to see your name on their call display.

[wes]

It is almost embarrassing interacting with the flotsam. Knuckleheads populate this forum and delight in supporting each other's shortcomings. I venture forth convinced by decades experimenting and analyzing the requirements for maximum hypertrophy. My generous nature compels me to share my theories with others but instead of comprehending my ideas the self-styled experts reject them wholesale. I gain no purchase in the shallow closed minds of the wannabe muscle heads. The din generated by the collective nobodies is thunderous. Why on earth I bother is a mystery. You guys wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face.
I am training arms to demonstrate that the principles are right. This has been established more than once.

Thanks for sharing Vince!!