The Afterlife

[The Ugly]

Yes, that's where it ultimately leads. No God = you are god, there is no true "right" and "wrong" no true North, that's why the famous satanist aleister crowley said "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law".
Atheists scare me.

Not necessarily, people can be moral without religion.

[Warpado]

Well, he should. It's the truth.

That’s rich. You guys wouldn’t recognize truth if it jumped up and took a sizable chunk out of your brainwashed backsides.

[pellius]

Not necessarily, people can be moral without religion.

Of course, and people can be immoral with religion. But ask yourself, why are you a moral and good person? Chances are it's because of the way you were raised and the values instilled in you by your parents, in addition to what you've been able distill on your own. Where did your parents gets those values? Probably from their parents where they also added and subtracted and modified depending on their life experiences.

But as our society has become more secular have people, in general, become more honest, more responsible, more civil, more decent than say back in the 1940s-50s? If you don't have a value system outside of yourself, some set of rules of behavior that you are accountable to then you only have to answer to yourself. You become your own God. Now chances are immense that everyone in this country has had parents,, grand parents, great grandparents..., somewhere down the line whose value system was rooted in Judeo/Christian ethics. Now say somewhere down the line a generation rejects God and religion. It's not like they under go a complete change in their value system because it's been instill in them since birth. They still believe that stealing is wrong because -- well it just is. And you wouldn't want anybody to steal from you because you are suppose to do unto others as you would... wait ... OK, that's also in the Bible but so what? Believing in some things in the Bible doesn't mean you have to believe in God.

But what happens when a belief system is based on yourself is that now the core beliefs gets progressively diluted with each succeeding generation? So one starts to ask, why is stealing wrong? I mean, I'm so much in need and he has so much more than I do, and he was lucky that he had rich parents or that he's rich himself. I mean is Sears really going to go out of business if I swipe this GPS? I finally got hired as a driver and I don't know North from South. If I don't have a GPS I won't last a day on my job. It won't matter a wit to Sears but for me it's a matter of survival. I need a job. The economy is tough. I don't see God putting food on the table or paying the rent.

When you answer to just yourself you can always make excuses why this one time should be an exception. When you trust in human nature, which is inherently flawed, you can always juggle conflicting moral dilemmas. I don't trust human nature.

So, as we see now, with increasing secularism we see an increase in immorality. People are less honest, less decent, less civil and more hedonistic (which is the final purpose and end result in a life where good and evil have no transcendent meaning. Live for yourself. Live for pleasure. If it feels good -- do it.) 

[garebear]

Of course, and people can be immoral with religion. But ask yourself, why are you a moral and good person? Chances are it's because of the way you were raised and the values instilled in you by your parents, in addition to what you've been able distill on your own. Where did your parents gets those values? Probably from their parents where they also added and subtracted and modified depending on their life experiences.

But as our society has become more secular have people, in general, become more honest, more responsible, more civil, more decent than say back in the 1940s-50s? If you don't have a value system outside of yourself, some set of rules of behavior that you are accountable to then you only have to answer to yourself. You become your own God. Now chances are immense that everyone in this country has had parents,, grand parents, great grandparents..., somewhere down the line whose value system was rooted in Judeo/Christian ethics. Now say somewhere down the line a generation rejects God and religion. It's not like they under go a complete change in their value system because it's been instill in them since birth. They still believe that stealing is wrong because -- well it just is. And you wouldn't want anybody to steal from you because you are suppose to do unto others as you would... wait ... OK, that's also in the Bible but so what? Believing in some things in the Bible doesn't mean you have to believe in God.

But what happens when a belief system is based on yourself is that now the core beliefs gets progressively diluted with each succeeding generation? So one starts to ask, why is stealing wrong? I mean, I'm so much in need and he has so much more than I do, and he was lucky that he had rich parents or that he's rich himself. I mean is Sears really going to go out of business if I swipe this GPS? I finally got hired as a driver and I don't know North from South. If I don't have a GPS I won't last a day on my job. It won't matter a wit to Sears but for me it's a matter of survival. I need a job. The economy is tough. I don't see God putting food on the table or paying the rent.

When you answer to just yourself you can always make excuses why this one time should be an exception. When you trust in human nature, which is inherently flawed, you can always juggle conflicting moral dilemmas. I don't trust human nature.

So, as we see now, with increasing secularism we see an increase in immorality. People are less honest, less decent, less civil and more hedonistic (which is the final purpose and end result in a life where good and evil have no transcendent meaning. Live for yourself. Live for pleasure. If it feels good -- do it.) 

How do you account for the vicious racism and slavery, both justified through Christianity, that are unacceptable today?

Why do so many priests molest kids?

Why do so many Muslims, in the name of their god, murder the innocent?

Why do so man Muslims, in the name of their god, cut off little girls' clits and sew their vaginas shut?

[pellius]

How do you account for the vicious racism and slavery, both justified through Christianity, that are unacceptable today?

Why do so many priests molest kids?

Why do so many Muslims, in the name of their god, murder the innocent?

Why do so man Muslims, in the name of their god, cut off little girls' clits and sew their vaginas shut?

Come on, my friend, please. Do you want to have a serious discussion? Are we talking Muslims? Do I even have to comment on this?  Muslims?

Slavery existed EVERYWHERE throughout history. What distinguished Western society, the United Sates, is that we fought a war to end it. The Quakers, Christians, played a huge role in the anti-slavery movement.

And the percentage Priest molesting children is not any higher, and in fact lower, then the general population of males except that it gets reported more.

Do I have to make a list of evil done by secularist and got tit for tat? Heard of Communism? Nazism? Fascism? I got you on dead bodies by far.

Friend, I already made it abundantly clear that I know there are many good and decent atheist and many rotten theist. The point I was trying to make was that if you believe you have to answer to somebody. That you will be held accountable for your behavior. This will have an impact on how you behave. Not 100% of the time and not 100% for everybody. Nothing is 100%.  Just like having strict supervision from a parent isn't going to guarantee good behavior from your children it's just going to make it more likely. I know for myself that I have been kept on the straight and narrow many times because I believe that one day I will have to account for myself. All the things that I think are so important and so want in life: wealth, fame, popularity, respect, happiness, accomplishment... will matter very little when I stand before God. He isn't going to ask how big my house was, what kind of car did I drive, was my girl friend hot, how big my muscles were, how much money did I have, was I popular and did people like me.... none of that will matter. It keeps things in perspective for me.

Remember that scene in The Green Mile where Tom Hanks may have to execute a man he believes is innocent? He has to do it, right? It's his job. So when he stands before God and is asked why he killed an innocent man what is Hank's character going to say? "It was my job?"

Here it is. It's just the first 20 seconds of the clip.  You can always justify any type of behavior when you just have to answer to yourself. "It was my job"

[Deicide]

Can't believe this is still being discussed...

[pellius]

Can't believe this is still being discussed...

It's here. It's still here. It will always be here. Be a believer.

[Deicide]

It's here. It's still here. It will always be here. Be a believer.

I don't believe in fairy tales, thank you.

[Deicide]

Yeah you do.

Uhm, which ones do I believe in then?

[pellius]

Uhm, which ones do I believe in then?

Anyone except Allah.

[calfzilla]

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
—Mark Twain, author.

Awesome quote.

[Deicide]

Anyone except Allah.

You have a cool handle name but that is about it.

[pellius]

Awesome quote.

Except going form nothing to something is a bit different then going from something to nothing.

It's similar to not giving something in the first place than to give something and then to have to take it back. In both cases you are left with nothing. It's just that in the second case it hurts more.

[pellius]

You have a cool handle name but that is about it.

I'll take what I can get.

[freespirit]

It's here. It's still here. It will always be here. Be a believer.

I'm an unbeliever. Believe is for the deceived, the ignorant, the obedient slaves like you. I reject your religion, Christianity, just as I reject Islam. All of you who believe are fools.

[Bobby]

  We all "eternally" exist in a specific location of the time-space continuum. Time is an illusion and we are all eternal. Right now you are already dead in a specific location of the time-space continuum and in other parts you "never" existed.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Brilliant post!

[The Ugly]

Of course, and people can be immoral with religion. But ask yourself, why are you a moral and good person? Chances are it's because of the way you were raised and the values instilled in you by your parents, in addition to what you've been able distill on your own. Where did your parents gets those values? Probably from their parents where they also added and subtracted and modified depending on their life experiences.

But as our society has become more secular have people, in general, become more honest, more responsible, more civil, more decent than say back in the 1940s-50s? If you don't have a value system outside of yourself, some set of rules of behavior that you are accountable to then you only have to answer to yourself. You become your own God. Now chances are immense that everyone in this country has had parents,, grand parents, great grandparents..., somewhere down the line whose value system was rooted in Judeo/Christian ethics. Now say somewhere down the line a generation rejects God and religion. It's not like they under go a complete change in their value system because it's been instill in them since birth. They still believe that stealing is wrong because -- well it just is. And you wouldn't want anybody to steal from you because you are suppose to do unto others as you would... wait ... OK, that's also in the Bible but so what? Believing in some things in the Bible doesn't mean you have to believe in God.

But what happens when a belief system is based on yourself is that now the core beliefs gets progressively diluted with each succeeding generation? So one starts to ask, why is stealing wrong? I mean, I'm so much in need and he has so much more than I do, and he was lucky that he had rich parents or that he's rich himself. I mean is Sears really going to go out of business if I swipe this GPS? I finally got hired as a driver and I don't know North from South. If I don't have a GPS I won't last a day on my job. It won't matter a wit to Sears but for me it's a matter of survival. I need a job. The economy is tough. I don't see God putting food on the table or paying the rent.

When you answer to just yourself you can always make excuses why this one time should be an exception. When you trust in human nature, which is inherently flawed, you can always juggle conflicting moral dilemmas. I don't trust human nature.

So, as we see now, with increasing secularism we see an increase in immorality. People are less honest, less decent, less civil and more hedonistic (which is the final purpose and end result in a life where good and evil have no transcendent meaning. Live for yourself. Live for pleasure. If it feels good -- do it.)  

I agree with most of this. Judeo-Christian values are great for society. It's how I was raised, sure. What I meant is that, individually, people can lose their faith yet still be moral citizens.

[freespirit]

 

[tbombz]

What do you mean "verifiable"?  Where did I assume this?

where do i discount non-sensory experience?

by verifiable i mean something concrete that can be scientifically tested, agreed upon by other individuals. the only kind of experience that is verifiable is sensory experience.

if you believe in non-sensory experience than you believe in the transcendant human spirit. you said you dont believe in dualism, therefore your saying you dont believe in non sensory experience.

[pellius]

I'm an unbeliever. Believe is for the deceived, the ignorant, the obedient slaves like you. I reject your religion, Christianity, just as I reject Islam. All of you who believe are fools.

I'm sure your side appreciates being represented by such a reasoned and well thought out response.

[pellius]

I agree with most of this. Judeo-Christian values are great for society. It's how I was raised, sure. What I meant is that, individually, people can lose their faith yet still be moral citizens.

Of course, but how do we create good individuals?

[The Ugly]

Creating good individuals is a different argument. On this point we agree. But telling a kid he better be nice or Santa won't bring him toys might help create a better kid, too. It doesn't make Santa real, though.

[tbombz]

Of course, but how do we create good individuals?

setting good a example, encouraging empathy

[cephissus]

by verifiable i mean something concrete that can be scientifically tested, agreed upon by other individuals. the only kind of experience that is verifiable is sensory experience.

if you believe in non-sensory experience than you believe in the transcendant human spirit. you said you dont believe in dualism, therefore your saying you dont believe in non sensory experience.

I'm contrasting the senses with reason (and countless reasons are "agreed upon by other individuals").  I don't know what you mean by "non-sensory" experience.

[pellius]

Creating good individuals is a different argument. On this point we agree. But telling a kid he better be nice or Santa won't bring him toys might help create a better kid, too. It doesn't make Santa real, though.

Yes, you are quite right. I have to admit that. That's why, though I believe a world without God and an after life makes life essentially meaningless, it is not an argument for the existence of God.
It just argues that it would be swell if there were. Different things entirely.