The Afterlife

[pellius]

setting good a example, encouraging empathy

Yes, but where do you get those values from unless you believe that men are simply born good?

[The Ugly]

I believe a world without God and an after life makes life essentially meaningless

That's the rub. Reality is a cruel mutherfocker.

[tbombz]

I'm contrasting the senses with reason (and countless reasons are "agreed upon by other individuals").  I don't know what you mean by "non-sensory" experience.

"reason" .. define that. i think you are again arguing for the transcendant human spirit without knowing it.

[tbombz]

Yes, but where do you get those values from unless you believe that men are simply born good?

are you not aware of morality based on logical deduction? it was a major philosophical concept for a few hundred years.. still is ..

how can we defend empathy without jesus ? well...   we could have been born in anyone elses body. its entirely by chance we are in the circumstances we are in. because of that we should love everyone as we love ourself.

[cephissus]

okay i'll get right on it... as soon as you define "non-sensory experience".   nothing is transcendent, i hope this helps.

[pellius]

That's the rub. Reality is a cruel mutherfocker.

Either the universe simply always existed and everything you see around you just happened purely by chance. Or it was created by a creator that always existed. So either matter, the stuff of the universe was always here, of it was created by a God that was always here.

Both are matters of faith. I find the first alternative as preposterous as atheist find the second.

So my belief in God is not simply a wish.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Either the universe simply always existed and everything you see around you just happened purely by chance. Or it was created by a creator that always existed. So either matter, the stuff of the universe was always here, of it was created by a God that was always here.

Both are matters of faith. I find the first alternative as preposterous as atheist find the second.

So my belief in God is not simply a wish.

Both are matters of faith . you're a funny guy. 

[The Ugly]

Both are matters of faith. I find the first alternative as preposterous as atheist find the second.

So my belief in God is not simply a wish.

I wish I had your mindset.

[pellius]

are you not aware of morality based on logical deduction? it was a major philosophical concept for a few hundred years.. still is ..

how can we defend empathy without jesus ? well...   we could have been born in anyone elses body. its entirely by chance we are in the circumstances we are in. because of that we should love everyone as we love ourself.

No, and I was initially a Philosophy major at UCLA.

Man's nature is base on self interest. It is natural to just take what you want than to earn it. To lie when the truth may get you in trouble. To be lazy. To be selfish. To react and behave solely based on your feelings and emotions. Creating a civilized person requires them to go against their nature. To learn to eat with a fork instead with your hands. To express thanks and gratitude. To share. To take into consideration other people's feelings.

The very concept of love others as you would love yourself didn't come from any logical deduction. It came from the Bible. It is natural to put yourself first. Not some stranger.  

[The Ugly]

Man's nature is base on self interest. It is natural to just take what you want than to earn it. To lie when the truth may get you in trouble. To be lazy. To be selfish. To react and behave solely based on your feelings and emotions. Creating a civilized person requires them to go against their nature. To learn to eat with a fork instead with your hands. To express thanks and gratitude. To share. To take into consideration other people's feelings.

The very concept of love others as you would love yourself didn't come from any logical deduction. It came from the Bible. It is natural to put yourself first. Not some stranger.  

"Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis addresses this very idea. Good read.

[tbombz]

okay i'll get right on it... as soon as you define "non-sensory experience".    nothing is transcendent, i hope this helps.

well that same "reasoning" you referred to would be a non sensory experience.  the experience of being human is a non sensory experience.  and it is transcendant.

No, and I was initially a Philosophy major at UCLA.

Man's nature is base on self interest. It is natural to just take what you want than to earn it. To lie when the truth may get you in trouble. To be lazy. To be selfish. To react and behave solely based on your feelings and emotions. Creating a civilized person requires them to go against their nature. To learn to eat with a fork instead with your hands. To express thanks and gratitude. To share. To take into consideration other people's feelings.

The very concept of love others as you would love yourself didn't come from any logical deduction. It came from the Bible. It is natural to put yourself first. Not some stranger.  

where do you think the people who wrote the bible got the idea ? even if you believe they got it from jesus, and you believe jesus got it from god.. where did god get the idea?  everything has a logical basis. 

[pellius]

well that same "reasoning" you referred to would be a non sensory experience.  the experience of being human is a non sensory experience.  and it is transcendant.

where do you think the people who wrote the bible got the idea ? even if you believe they got it from jesus, and you believe jesus got it from god.. where did god get the idea?  everything has a logical basis. 

The fallacy is that you are anthropomorphizing God. God does not "get an idea."

[Natural Man]

being an atheist, a so called "non believer", is actually believing in others principles than religious ones; materialism, hedonism, consumerism, feminism, humanism, capitalism... they all form... a belief, a faith. So dont tell people you dont believe in a religion, cause you have your own belief, religion, it's being an atheist.
You re as much of a beleiver than a buddhist, muslim, christian.

The real question tho, is, from all these religions, which one is the One.

[NarcissisticDeity]

being an atheist, a so called "non believer", is actually believing in others principles; materialism, hedonism, consumerism, feminism, humanism, capitalism... they all form... a belief, a faith. So dont tell people you dont believe in a religion, cause you have your own belief, religion, it's being an atheist.

The word Atheist comes from the Greek word Atheos , A meaning without and Theos meaning Theology or God , all it simply means is without belief in a God or Gods

Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color

[freespirit]

being an atheist, a so called "non believer", is actually believing in others principles; materialism, hedonism, consumerism, feminism, humanism, capitalism... they all form... a belief, a faith. So dont tell people you dont believe in a religion, cause you have your own belief, religion, it's being an atheist.

I'm not an atheist.

[cephissus]

being an atheist, a so called "non believer", is actually believing in others principles; materialism, hedonism, consumerism, feminism, humanism, capitalism... they all form... a belief, a faith. So dont tell people you dont believe in a religion, cause you have your own belief, religion, it's being an atheist.

good post

[tbombz]

The fallacy is that you are anthropomorphizing God. God does not "get an idea."

your objection, while somewhat valid,  is unrelated to what i was saying.  how can we create good people? by encouraging empathy. how do we know this is the right thing to do? thats kind of a circular question    

[pellius]

I wish I had your mindset.

Though coming from a Christian church going family, I was an agnostic (much to my parents horror) from my mid teens throughout my twenties. But at some point, when deciding how you want to live, what kind of man you want to be, you can't -- well at least I can't -- sit on the fence for the entirety of my life. At some point you have to take that leap of faith no matter what side you choose. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that I would be a different person had I chosen to believe that in the end it doesn't matter in this world if you are a good person or a bad person. But I would definitely have had a tendency to "sweep moral issues under the rug." I would be less honest and more selfish. I would do things if I could get away with it if it suited me. Like when the cashier owe me four dollars in change she mistakenly gave me three one dollar bills and a ten dollar bill. Atheist Pellius would have just kept the ten. Not my problem that the clerk is sloppy and I always prefer a ten dollar bill over a one. But religious Pellius asks himself that when he stands before God and has to account for his deeds how important will that ten dollars be now?

[pellius]

being an atheist, a so called "non believer", is actually believing in others principles; materialism, hedonism, consumerism, feminism, humanism, capitalism... they all form... a belief, a faith. So dont tell people you dont believe in a religion, cause you have your own belief, religion, it's being an atheist.

This reminds me of the quote by G.K. Chesterton, "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."

I don't think it's coincidental that those who are into the radical wind of certain movements like feminism, environmentalism, PETA.... are atheists. People need something to believe in to make their lives more fulfilling and meaningful. So when people accuse people of faith for being weak willed because they have to believe in a God to give their life comfort and meaning. That may indeed be so. But are you any more "strong willed" because nature and the right of trees to live is your belief system? Your God? 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Though coming from a Christian church going family, I was an agnostic (much to my parents horror) from my mid teens throughout my twenties. But at some point, when deciding how you want to live, what kind of man you want to be, you can't -- well at least I can't -- sit on the fence for the entirety of my life. At some point you have to take that leap of faith no matter what side you choose. I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that I would be a different person had I chosen to believe that in the end it doesn't matter in this world if you are a good person or a bad person. But I would definitely have had a tendency to "sweep moral issues under the rug." I would be less honest and more selfish. I would do things if I could get away with it if it suited me. Like when the cashier owe me four dollars in change she mistakenly gave me three one dollar bills and a ten dollar bill. Atheist Pellius would have just kept the ten. Not my problem that the clerk is sloppy and I always prefer a ten dollar bill over a one. But religious Pellius asks himself that when he stands before God and has to account for his deeds how important will that ten dollars be now?

LMFAO equating atheism with being amoral ironic the overwhelming majority of prisons are packed full of believers

So you're only behaving out of fear of a vengeful God? great logic 

[The Ugly]

I would do things if I could get away with it if it suited me. Like when the cashier owe me four dollars in change she mistakenly gave me three one dollar bills and a ten dollar bill. Atheist Pellius would have just kept the ten. Not my problem that the clerk is sloppy and I always prefer a ten dollar bill over a one. But religious Pellius asks himself that when he stands before God and has to account for his deeds how important will that ten dollars be now?

See, it doesn't work that way for me. I still believe in right and wrong, because that's how I was raised, and I just feel better doing the right thing. Call it what you will. I definitely empathize with my fellow human being.

That, or I'm just a lazy atheist.

[pellius]

your objection, while somewhat valid,  is unrelated to what i was saying.  how can we create good people? by encouraging empathy. how do we know this is the right thing to do? thats kind of a circular question    

It's not. For a religious person if you ask them why it is wrong to steal they will answer "because it is against one of the ten commandments." And I know people on this board will laugh at this and say we are brain washed robots and can't think for ourselves.

But explain to me, in purely secular terms, why stealing is wrong.

[tbombz]

It's not. For a religious person if you ask them why it is wrong to steal they will answer "because it is against one of the ten commandments." And I know people on this board will laugh at this and say we are brain washed robots and can't think for ourselves.

But explain to me, in purely secular terms, why stealing is wrong.

very simple, it hurts another person.

morality is based on how your behavior affect others.

[cephissus]

why is hurting another person wrong?

[Natural Man]

Atheists dont want to reproduce, get illnesses, sink into addictions, real faithful christians -not talking about fake ones- dont know. Real christians reproduce, raise educated contributing kids who dont fall for addictions and help others get over them. Work in research, in health... They raise happy people who share their hapiness and faith with those who lost it, who lost the will to live. Faith is the will to live doing your best without hurting others, as simple as that. It doesnt mean you have to let others kill you either. It tells you you have to fight to preserve life and faith when necessary.
The atheist faith is ; "i do what i want, i am god, I before them, there was nothing before me and after me there's nothing". This is anarchism and nihilism.
For some reasons more and more atheists find Islam interesting, especially in europe, but that's something you north american still arent aware of. It's a global thing that's at work. Way beyond just north america. The Globalization of all phenomenons.

Atheist will disapear, and only real christians, muslims, and chinese will remain and will fight or cooperate to form tomorow's mankind. Something tells me there can only be one "winner".

you do the maths narcisic"Deity" ...