Author Topic: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.  (Read 45527 times)

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #150 on: October 16, 2011, 07:15:23 PM »
chime in with a sentence or two, or a paragraph or three if you have anything to say. im not watching an hour long video to hear the same bullshit im already refuting in this thread.

either there is no answer, the universe always existed. or the universe was created.  only two options.

you can start by addressing that. if you have nothing you think refutes that then i have no qualms with your ideas and your presence is not needed. 
No actually it explains a possible way that something came from nothing but you generation nothingness attention span will not allow you to learn anything new so i see i wasted my time. Hell you probably stopped reading at no actually. Go back to what your good at, snorting lines and being taken advantage of anally.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #151 on: October 16, 2011, 07:17:13 PM »
now your trying to obfuscate. the universe either always existed, or it was created. is that better?  :)

Look up "false dilemma" with Google.

... im not watching an hour long video to hear the same bullshit im already refuting in this thread...  

LOL... The only thing you're refuting is that there's a minimum IQ necessary to post on GB.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #152 on: October 16, 2011, 07:56:11 PM »
Look up "false dilemma" with Google.

LOL... The only thing you're refuting is that there's a minimum IQ necessary to post on GB.

yeah, yeah, anyone who disagrees with you has a small iq...lol..i know...we can't hang..  ::)
The answer is "yes".

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #153 on: October 16, 2011, 08:15:50 PM »
What I'm saying is science, CAN prove everything. 

It hasn't explained why you put that comma there.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #154 on: October 16, 2011, 08:18:48 PM »
i assume your both refering to the fac that particles "pop"in and out of existence due to "quantum fluctuations" and take this to mean that "something came from nothing".  but what caused the particle to pop into existence? the quantum fluctuation? if such a thing exists, then it is part of the universe, and somehting didnt come from nothing, it came from the quantum fluctuation.  but where did the quantum fluctuation come from, what caused it to happen? and what caused that to happen, and so forth? no matter what science explains.. the big bang, quantum fluctuations, etc..  its all part of the universe. and either the universe, and everything inside of it (including quantum fluctuations) has always existed, or it was created at some point.  so have quantum fluctuations and the potential for matter to "pop" into existence always existed.. or was it created at some time?  ;)

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #155 on: October 16, 2011, 08:21:25 PM »
What I'm saying is science, CAN prove everything.  We don't have an understanding of the science yet.  It's just waiting to be found or unearthed...You are correct.  It's no different then thousands of years ago when the unexplained would be attributed to a supernatural power...That hasn't stopped science from progressing IMO although I see more for profit vs. in the name of science today.

Good point, I agree.

Its actually more frustrating than anything, which is why I choose not debate theists any more.

both of you seem to have the same idea..  that there MUST BE AN ANSWER, and that science can find that answer. once you realize science is incapable of answering that question because by definition science can not enter the realm of the supernatural, you realize that your gut feeling of "THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER" is telling you that god has to exist.  ;) doesnt mean god exists, but explains to you why 90+% of the world find it very easy to believe.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #156 on: October 16, 2011, 08:23:48 PM »
both of you seem to have the same idea..  that there MUST BE AN ANSWER, and that science can find that answer. once you realize science is incapable of answering that question because by definition science can not enter the realm of the supernatural, you realize that your gut feeling of "THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER" is telling you that god has to exist.  ;) doesnt mean god exists, but explains to you why 90+% of the world find it very easy to believe.

No, a god does not exist.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2011, 08:24:29 PM »
and leafy if you truly think there was something valuable in that video direct me to the segment and ill watch it, or just write it down in your own words. i assure you though, there is nothing you can find anywhere in any video or any scientific discovery that will ever provide information to indicate that science can find an "answer" for the origin of the universe.  by its very defintion science is incapable of doing so.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2011, 08:25:09 PM »
No, a god does not exist.
maybe not, but if you feel like "there must be an answer" then eventually your going to realize that you think god must exist.. or betray your gut feeling.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2011, 08:40:11 PM »
maybe not, but if you feel like "there must be an answer" then eventually your going to realize that you think god must exist.. or betray your gut feeling.

We get it...you believe in sublimating yourself on your knees to the big and powerful sky daddy...you also take cock in the ass...check & mate.   ::)

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2011, 08:40:41 PM »
Everything that is outside the realm of the laws of nature.

No it doesn't. Where does it demand such a thing?

Putting words in my mouth won't help you win any arguments.  I never said "something came from nothing" and that's a very common misconception of people who don't have a background in science, and at least a rudimentary understanding of advanced and theoretical physics.

My answer to your question about 'where all this matter comes from' would be exceedingly long to type here, but feel free to visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Speculative_physics_beyond_Big_Bang_theory for a decent (and pretty accessible) explanation of how science understands the formation of the Universe. The theory is certainly not complete and there are questions it cannot answer (such as the baryonic asymmetry we observe) but that's how science is.

As to what came "before" the Big Bang, I will again point out that the question is meaningless, because it assumes temporal causality divorced from time.



I was personally discussing evolution vs. creationism from a biological perspective.  All you've stated is that creationism is wrong by the definition of science and it seems like you're now trying to bring theoretical physics into the argument as well? I'm by no means a thoeritical physicist, but I'd venture to say that most debates regarding creation and evolution will deal with issues from the biological and geological sciences, not theoretical physics. I'm sure you could find some way to bring it in, but if you've ever seen debates between creation scientists and evolutionists, the topic is rarely broached. The meat is in the biology, such as in the experiment that ND linked to. As you stated, it's tough to respond to these issues on a message board, but I'd just say that that citrate experiment has been discussed by various creation scientists, and it's an interesting read. Again, it comes down to definitions and an understanding of biology. The linked article is VERY MISLEADING. It makes it seem like these cells gaining the ability to metabolize citrate is this dramatic new event. It almost seems to imply that the entire metabolic pathway for citrate metabolism evolved in this particular cell line. The reality is, however, E. coli CAN metabolize citrate; they have all the necessary cellular machinery to do so. Apparently under oxic conditions, they cannot transport citrate into the cell. So all they had to do was find a way to get citrate into the cell under oxic conditions, and they could metabolize it. Basically a transport issue. That's a lot different that evolving an entirely new pathway of citrate metabolism, which this article misleadingly implies. So apparently 1 cell line after 30,000 generations gains this ability...and that's macroevolution? And do we even know what the change was that led to the ability? Perhaps a slight alteration of an existing transport protein? I don't see that mentioned in the article.
And as far as the comment about a rudimentary understanding of theoretical physics, you're right-- I'm a physician, but I have a background in evolutionary biology as well...and that's what I'm discussing here.  I'm guessing your knowledge of biology is about as rudimentary as my knowledge of physics. But I appreciate the link on the Big bang and will check it out.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2011, 08:42:47 PM »
maybe not, but if you feel like "there must be an answer" then eventually your going to realize that you think god must exist.. or betray your gut feeling.

no, youre wrong.
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avxo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2011, 08:50:09 PM »
yeah, yeah, anyone who disagrees with you has a small iq...lol..i know...we can't hang..  ::)

No, only those who clearly refuse to read what's being written and spit out the same thing again and again and again and again. Like tbombz.

i assume your both refering to the fac that particles "pop"in and out of existence due to "quantum fluctuations" and take this to mean that "something came from nothing".  

That is what happens. Study quantum mechanics.



and either the universe, and everything inside of it (including quantum fluctuations) has always existed, or it was created at some point.

For the last time, it's meaningless to apply causal and temporal ordering relationships to the Universe itself. Time is a prerequisite for words like "always" and "at some point" and "at some time." Time is a property of the Universe itself. Time, as we understand it and live it doesn't exist outside of the Universe. So words like "at some point" and "at some time" are meaningless outside of the current context of existence -- the Universe.


so have quantum fluctuations and the potential for matter to "pop" into existence always existed.. or was it created at some time?  ;)

Creation isn't a prerequisite. You waive your hands around frantically and claim that it is, but your only supporting evidence is you screaming "it's either eternal or it was created." I say NONSENSE.


once you realize science is incapable of answering that question because by definition science can not enter the realm of the supernatural, you realize that your gut feeling of "THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER" is telling you that god has to exist.  ;) doesnt mean god exists, but explains to you why 90+% of the world find it very easy to believe.

Science is "incapable" of answering that question in the same sense that humans are "incapable" of being potatoes. Science deals with nature and its laws; not fairytales. It provides the answers when you ask the right questions.

You again assert that "there must be an answer" implies god. I call bullshit. Why god and not something else? "Oh," you'll say "whatever it is, it's god." That's the problem when you're refusing to provide concrete non-circular definitions of words and insist on debating nebulous concepts that, by your own admission, are incomprehensible.

RadOncDoc

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2011, 09:20:36 PM »
And, look, I'd just add that I frankly don't know what the "right" answer is to this. I'm pleading ignorance. I took a few classes in evolutionary biology and worked with a prominent evolutionist as an undegrad. That's about it. I will say that I was very underwhelmed by the "evidence" for evolution. Almost the entire class was spent discussing microevolution, and whenever the issue of God came up, we always heard the usual "science requires a naturalistic explanation." I began to get the sense that microevolution was enough because they excluded god a priori. I'm not necessarily satisfied with that. This being said, I personally just think it's ridiculous when people who probably have no formal training in science call other people ignorant, backwards, etc. for not belieiving what they do (and "believe" is the key word here because 99.9% of the world couldn't even begin to give a rational defense of creationism or evolution...and yet everyone seems to have such a strong opinion on the topic.) I personally find it insulting, and I just wonder what the hell I'm missing because it isn't very clear to me at all.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #164 on: October 16, 2011, 09:21:13 PM »
how do i know there are only two options for the universe, caused or uncaused ?  please, give me an example of another option.   ;D (heres a hint, something can not be "partially caused", it either is or it isnt.)


again, your being very obtuse.
WIKIPEDIA BITCHES!
Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance" [where "ignorance" stands for: "lack of evidence to the contrary"], is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false, it is "generally accepted" (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to satisfactorily prove the proposition to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[1] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.
 
Argument from ignorance may be used as a rationalization by a person who realizes that he has no reason for holding the belief that he does.
 
The fallaciousness of arguments from ignorance does not mean that one can never possess good reasons for thinking that something does not exist, an idea captured by philosopher Bertrand Russell's teapot, a hypothetical china teapot revolving about the sun between Earth and Mars; however this would fall more duly under the arena of pragmatism, wherein a position must be demonstrated or proven in order to be upheld, and therefore the burden of proof is on the argument's proponent.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2011, 09:22:58 PM »

I was personally discussing evolution vs. creationism from a biological perspective.  All you've stated is that creationism is wrong by the definition of science and it seems like you're now trying to bring theoretical physics into the argument as well? I'm by no means a thoeritical physicist, but I'd venture to say that most debates regarding creation and evolution will deal with issues from the biological and geological sciences, not theoretical physics. I'm sure you could find some way to bring it in, but if you've ever seen debates between creation scientists and evolutionists, the topic is rarely broached. The meat is in the biology, such as in the experiment that ND linked to. As you stated, it's tough to respond to these issues on a message board, but I'd just say that that citrate experiment has been discussed by various creation scientists, and it's an interesting read. Again, it comes down to definitions and an understanding of biology. The linked article is VERY MISLEADING. It makes it seem like these cells gaining the ability to metabolize citrate is this dramatic new event. It almost seems to imply that the entire metabolic pathway for citrate metabolism evolved in this particular cell line. The reality is, however, E. coli CAN metabolize citrate; they have all the necessary cellular machinery to do so. Apparently under oxic conditions, they cannot transport citrate into the cell. So all they had to do was find a way to get citrate into the cell under oxic conditions, and they could metabolize it. Basically a transport issue. That's a lot different that evolving an entirely new pathway of citrate metabolism, which this article misleadingly implies. So apparently 1 cell line after 30,000 generations gains this ability...and that's macroevolution? And do we even know what the change was that led to the ability? Perhaps a slight alteration of an existing transport protein? I don't see that mentioned in the article.
And as far as the comment about a rudimentary understanding of theoretical physics, you're right-- I'm a physician, but I have a background in evolutionary biology as well...and that's what I'm discussing here.  I'm guessing your knowledge of biology is about as rudimentary as my knowledge of physics. But I appreciate the link on the Big bang and will check it out.

You asked where all this matter comes from, and I provided a link that you could read that might answer some of those questions. We can discuss biology if you prefer although I'm not a biologist. Or a physician even, but I'll try to keep up.

As to e.coli metabolizing citrate, I think that you need to re-examine your viewpoint. You say that creating a new metabolic pathway is one thing, whereas transporting citrate across cellular membranes is another. That's certainly true. But for e.coli to gain the ability to transfer citrate across its cellular membranes is by no means the simple event you suggest it is. Mediated transport is by no means trivial and requires complex mechanics involving highly specific permeases. You suggest that perhaps a small change to an existing permease could be responsible. Let's assume that is true. It would be a textbook case of an epimutation and microevolution, and I don't think you'd disagree with that.

In your own line of work, as a physician, you see microevolution happen all the time. You are, no doubt, aware of the alarming rise of drug-resistant bacteria and how they are fast becoming a major concern for physicians and health authorities. That is evolution and natural selection at work.

I suspect that you are not opposed to the theory of evolution per se, but have objections when it comes to macro- vs. micro-evolution. But you know full well that macro-evolution doesn't mean, boom, out of the blue, a monkey evolves into a human. It's a painstakingly long process that works across hundreds of thousands of years...

So, do you have any specific misgivings about the theory of evolution that you would like to bring up? I wouldn't mind discussing it, even though I'm not a biologist.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2011, 09:43:32 PM »
You asked where all this matter comes from, and I provided a link that you could read that might answer some of those questions. We can discuss biology if you prefer although I'm not a biologist. Or a physician even, but I'll try to keep up.

As to e.coli metabolizing citrate, I think that you need to re-examine your viewpoint. You say that creating a new metabolic pathway is one thing, whereas transporting citrate across cellular membranes is another. That's certainly true. But for e.coli to gain the ability to transfer citrate across its cellular membranes is by no means the simple event you suggest it is. Mediated transport is by no means trivial and requires complex mechanics involving highly specific permeases. You suggest that perhaps a small change to an existing permease could be responsible. Let's assume that is true. It would be a textbook case of an epimutation and microevolution, and I don't think you'd disagree with that.

In your own line of work, as a physician, you see microevolution happen all the time. You are, no doubt, aware of the alarming rise of drug-resistant bacteria and how they are fast becoming a major concern for physicians and health authorities. That is evolution and natural selection at work.

I suspect that you are not opposed to the theory of evolution per se, but have objections when it comes to macro- vs. micro-evolution. But you know full well that macro-evolution doesn't mean, boom, out of the blue, a monkey evolves into a human. It's a painstakingly long process that works across hundreds of thousands of years...

So, do you have any specific misgivings about the theory of evolution that you would like to bring up? I wouldn't mind discussing it, even though I'm not a biologist.



You make excellent points and have definitely summarized my dilemma. Microevolution=fact. In a God-less system, macroevolution also=fact. So if you're an atheist, there are no other options. But I think when you consider the possibility of a God (another argument, another time :) ), it complicates things because quite honestly you can explain most observable phenomenon from either perspective (creationism or evolution). An evolutionist calls that citrate experiment "microevolution"; the creationist calls it adaptation. Similarities in DNA sequences...evolutionist says "we evolved from common ancestor." Creation scientist says "God worked from a common template." It's very discouraging, and in my own personal experience, the choice between the two felt like it was made outside of science. My professors who studied evolution were all atheists and the creation scientists I knew were all religious. And again, my reason for bringing up these points is that it always amazes me about how passionate people get about these issues when I find them frankly quite unclear.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2011, 09:46:26 PM »
One cannot prove something that does not exist. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims
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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #168 on: October 16, 2011, 09:53:52 PM »
God created science.

Consider your mind blown.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #169 on: October 16, 2011, 09:57:12 PM »
God created science.

Consider your mind blown.
Mind created god - Consider your mind a poor example of the evolutionary process.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2011, 10:03:52 PM »
[...] But I think when you consider the possibility of a God (another argument, another time :) ), it complicates things because quite honestly you can explain most observable phenomenon from either perspective (creationism or evolution). [...] And again, my reason for bringing up these points is that it always amazes me about how passionate people get about these issues when I find them frankly quite unclear.

To me the answer to this type of question has always been clear. Ultimately, it boils down to this: "I can answer X using this falsifiable theory that seems to fit the facts we have at hand so far, or I can posit the existence of something that's not falsifiable and then say that's what responsible for X through some unknowable means." Occam's razor.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2011, 10:06:49 PM »
Mind created god - Consider your mind a poor example of the evolutionary process.

Oh yeah, prove it.

Atheists are just as overbearing and full of shit as the religious nuts.

Your religion is Atheism and you try to spread your "gospel" just as hard to the masses as anyone else.

Nobody gives two fucks what you think except the polar opposite. Opposite sides of the same coin trying to indoctrinate the other.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2011, 10:21:58 PM »
Oh yeah, prove it.

Atheists are just as overbearing and full of shit as the religious nuts.

Your religion is Atheism and you try to spread your "gospel" just as hard to the masses as anyone else.

Nobody gives two fucks what you think except the polar opposite. Opposite sides of the same coin trying to indoctrinate the other.
Proof: Recently when my Mums Neigbour - A Religious Zealot Died - After Death I approached the dead woman and asked her if God existed. I received No Response - I guess it was just her mind that created it.  Once her mind ceased to exist, so did her Notion of God.
I dont care what people believe, I know and like the truth, so thats what I stick with.
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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2011, 10:29:25 PM »
Oh yeah, prove it.

Atheists are just as overbearing and full of shit as the religious nuts.

Your religion is Atheism and you try to spread your "gospel" just as hard to the masses as anyone else.

Nobody gives two fucks what you think except the polar opposite. Opposite sides of the same coin trying to indoctrinate the other.
it's called believing in facts backed by proof, or the best theory available. call it what you want.

it's not a religion. religion is faith based. you believe blindly in some fairytales. most likely because you grew up with it and your parents taught you so. and you're too stupid to think for yourself.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Calls O'Reilly Dumbass.
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2011, 10:41:11 PM »
both of you seem to have the same idea..  that there MUST BE AN ANSWER, and that science can find that answer. once you realize science is incapable of answering that question because by definition science can not enter the realm of the supernatural, you realize that your gut feeling of "THERE MUST BE AN ANSWER" is telling you that god has to exist.  ;) doesnt mean god exists, but explains to you why 90+% of the world find it very easy to believe.

S0 WH0 CREATED G0D? Y0U C0NTRADICT Y0URSELF BY SAYING  THAT S0METHING MUST  HAVE CREATED THE QUANTAM FLUCTUATI0NS BUT IGN0RE THE ANSWER 0N WH0 CREATED G0D? THE LAWS 0F PHYSICS SAY THAT THE UNIVERSE CAN C0ME FR0M N0THING. A UNIVERSE FR0M N0THING EQUALS N0 NEED F0R G0D.