Author Topic: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’  (Read 9262 times)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2011, 09:30:08 PM »
and seeing as libs make more than cons, that means what?

Within the working class?  Because that's what your study says.

why didnt you address the other studies and points made like the facts about charitable donations and lib/con states?

facts are facts son, deal with it.

I don't know.  You'd have to tell me more about Arthur Brooks, so I can know if he is obviously partisan and therefore biased in any way.

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2011, 09:38:08 PM »
Within the working class?  Because that's what your study says.

I don't know.  You'd have to tell me more about Arthur Brooks, so I can know if he is obviously partisan and therefore biased in any way.
yes within the working class...

classic fallacy, brooks is a supposed independent...whether or not he is or is a right wing nut job doesnt disprove or discredit the facts that cons donate more time and blood.

so again why dont you make mention of these?


Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2011, 10:08:57 PM »
yes within the working class...

This is supposed to be a comparison of the wealthy class to the working class, because that's exactly what Stossel's "study" turns out to be.

classic fallacy, brooks is a supposed independent...whether or not he is or is a right wing nut job doesnt disprove or discredit the facts that cons donate more time and blood.



He is as biased as it gets.  I can't use anything he says.

If it turned out that working-class conservatives give more to charity than working-class liberals, then I'd have to hope that wealthy people would follow the example of working-class conservatives.

whork25

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2011, 03:43:13 AM »
::) LMFAO does that prove anything to you?

fact of the matter is conservative do more to help poor ppl than liberals do...deal with it samson

So why does poor people have it so much better in Scandinavia with all those libs compared to the US with so many Conservatives? Im waiting for an answer.

whork25

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2011, 03:44:35 AM »
Did you not understand from the links I posted that cons do more to help the poor than lobs even though libs make more?

I thought we were talking Jesus

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2011, 11:23:49 AM »
This is supposed to be a comparison of the wealthy class to the working class, because that's exactly what Stossel's "study" turns out to be.

He is as biased as it gets.  I can't use anything he says.

If it turned out that working-class conservatives give more to charity than working-class liberals, then I'd have to hope that wealthy people would follow the example of working-class conservatives.

and what of the other studies and facts seperate from his that back up his findings?

LMFAO so the ad hominem attacks are credible in your eyes then huh? what a moron.

dispute the facts dont say i dont like that guy so his facts are not valid...::)

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2011, 11:25:52 AM »
So why does poor people have it so much better in Scandinavia with all those libs compared to the US with so many Conservatives? Im waiting for an answer.
why are the poor doing so bad in this country with the most liberal senator ever in the white house and a lib senate along with a lib house for 2 years?

neither of these does anything to disprove that conservatives do more to help the poor and disenfrachised then your ass does...

DEAL WITH IT!!!

tu_holmes

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2011, 11:27:09 AM »
why are the poor doing so bad in this country with the most liberal senator ever in the white house and a lib senate along with a lib house for 2 years?

neither of these does anything to disprove that conservatives do more to help the poor and disenfrachised then your ass does...

DEAL WITH IT!!!

I dont' think either really help either.

I do think that Cons give more money to church groups and things, but I also believe that the church groups often take that money and buy themselves big cars and nice houses.

When was the last time you saw a poor pastor at a megachurch?


tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2011, 12:07:23 PM »
I dont' think either really help either.

I do think that Cons give more money to church groups and things, but I also believe that the church groups often take that money and buy themselves big cars and nice houses.

When was the last time you saw a poor pastor at a megachurch?
they arent giving time and blood to churches...

I agree that neither does near enough however our poor arent what many would consider poor either.

I agree with you about the mega churchs which is why im not a big fan of joel olsteen here in houston.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2011, 01:20:09 PM »
and what of the other studies and facts seperate from his that back up his findings?

I didn't dispute the fact that an argument may be made that working-class conservatives donate more than working-class liberals.

As a matter of fact, I said that Neiman-Marcus shoppers should follow their lead if it is true.

LMFAO so the ad hominem attacks are credible in your eyes then huh? what a moron.

Not sure what you mean here.

dispute the facts dont say i dont like that guy so his facts are not valid...::)

But I haven't disputed anything.

dario73

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #110 on: November 04, 2011, 01:26:53 PM »
Where did he advocate against them?

Where did he advocate against beastiality and incest?

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #111 on: November 04, 2011, 01:38:05 PM »
I didn't dispute the fact that an argument may be made that working-class conservatives donate more than working-class liberals.

As a matter of fact, I said that Neiman-Marcus shoppers should follow their lead if it is true.

Not sure what you mean here.

But I haven't disputed anything.

my point exactly, you dismiss the guys findings b/c you perceive him to be bias not b/c his findings are inaccurate...

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #112 on: November 04, 2011, 01:57:19 PM »
my point exactly, you dismiss the guys findings b/c you perceive him to be bias not b/c his findings are inaccurate...

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss what he claims to have found, just because he is a shameless tool for the extreme right wing.  If what he claims to have found is true, then it can be accessed without having to use him as a source.

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2011, 03:42:41 PM »
I wouldn't necessarily dismiss what he claims to have found, just because he is a shameless tool for the extreme right wing.  If what he claims to have found is true, then it can be accessed without having to use him as a source.
OR and this would be the logical thing to do, it could be refuted by using facts...

That is if the facts didnt already point to what he concluded...

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #114 on: November 04, 2011, 05:45:25 PM »
OR and this would be the logical thing to do, it could be refuted by using facts...

That is if the facts didnt already point to what he concluded...

But I'm not trying to refute it.  That's the thing.

It sounds logical to me, that working-class conservatives donate more of their money than working-class liberals.  The conservatives in this case are more likely to be influenced by their pastors, and that probably has a lot to do with it.  They're more likely to donate to their church, for sure.

I wish the pastors were less prone to using their pulpits to make political speeches, and to direct people on how to vote, but that's another story.

Coach is Back!

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2011, 05:56:43 PM »
240 - "liberals can't be Christians". Now you get it!

MCWAY

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #116 on: November 04, 2011, 06:45:08 PM »
"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."

-Proverbs 22:16


And what of he who increases his wealth WITHOUT oppressing the poor?

MCWAY

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2011, 06:55:01 PM »
Didn't we just go through this?

Spend his time with poor and preached they would inherit the Earth, Heaven..check   Welfare-bum-lover :)
Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
'Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. 'Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

NOPE!!

Blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT (which can happen to anyone, regardless of income); blessed are they who hunger and thirst FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS; for they shall be filled.

That ain't got nothing to do with glorifying poverty and villifying those with material wealth.
          
Anti-Capitalist...Check
“It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Luke 18:25)”

As usual, you forgot the rest of that passage, verse 26, For with men this is impossible; but with God, ALL THINGS are possible. That would mean that rich people can enter the Kingdom of Heaven; imagine that.


Said to people they should give away their belongings to enter the kingdom of god and live in his spirit..Check Communist:)
Matthew 19:21-22: "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou
hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow
me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great
possessions."

Correction: He said that to one apparently pompous young man. Notice again that he did not order Zaccheus, Nicodemus, the Roman Centurion, or any other rich person he met to give away all his belongings.


Against Flat tax..Check
Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

This says ZILCH about opposing a flat tax; in fact, this isn't even a tax; it's an offering at the temple.

Didnt like the concept of fundraising dinners...
Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

This doesn't sound like a political dinner, whatsoever, especially since emperors and procurators weren't elected.


Nemesis on the rich...Check
Luke 16:19-25 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.

Again, see Zaccheus, the centurion, Nicodemus, et. al.

Anti coorporatism anti Big ownership...Check
Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: "The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, 'What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?' Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, 'Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God."
comments(1134)

There's that pesky parable of the talents, again (Matt. 25):

"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.

But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master


And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'

 But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



The evidence is overwhelming people

 ;)


You are overwhelming DEAD WRONG!!!

 ;D

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2011, 08:58:44 PM »
But I'm not trying to refute it.  That's the thing.

It sounds logical to me, that working-class conservatives donate more of their money than working-class liberals.  The conservatives in this case are more likely to be influenced by their pastors, and that probably has a lot to do with it.  They're more likely to donate to their church, for sure.

I wish the pastors were less prone to using their pulpits to make political speeches, and to direct people on how to vote, but that's another story.
actually according to the studies it has more to do to their views on govt not religion. You see conservatives dont believe its the govt role to redistribute wealth and make sure ppl are taken care of. Thus they give b/c they fell compelled to, liberals much like yourself and your gimmick whork feel that its ok to tell others what to do with their money just not back it up with actions of your own...

hope this helps, doubt it will

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2011, 09:28:14 PM »
actually according to the studies it has more to do to their views on govt not religion.

In too many churches, the two have become inseparable.

You see conservatives dont believe its the govt role to redistribute wealth and make sure ppl are taken care of. Thus they give b/c they fell compelled to, liberals much like yourself and your gimmick whork feel that its ok to tell others what to do with their money just not back it up with actions of your own...

Where did I say that?

hope this helps, doubt it will

It didn't.

tonymctones

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #120 on: November 05, 2011, 07:48:45 AM »
In too many churches, the two have become inseparable.
agreed, but that has nothing to do with the reason why conservatives give more than liberals...sorry just facts...

Where did I say that?
it was hypebole to excentuate the idiocy of your post that cons donate b/c their pastors tell them to...::)

It didn't.
I knew it wouldnt ;)

Dos Equis

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #121 on: November 05, 2011, 10:50:26 AM »
Didn't we just go through this?

NOPE!!

Blessed are the poor IN SPIRIT (which can happen to anyone, regardless of income); blessed are they who hunger and thirst FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS; for they shall be filled.

That ain't got nothing to do with glorifying poverty and villifying those with material wealth.
          
As usual, you forgot the rest of that passage, verse 26, For with men this is impossible; but with God, ALL THINGS are possible. That would mean that rich people can enter the Kingdom of Heaven; imagine that.

Correction: He said that to one apparently pompous young man. Notice again that he did not order Zaccheus, Nicodemus, the Roman Centurion, or any other rich person he met to give away all his belongings.

This says ZILCH about opposing a flat tax; in fact, this isn't even a tax; it's an offering at the temple.

This doesn't sound like a political dinner, whatsoever, especially since emperors and procurators weren't elected.

Again, see Zaccheus, the centurion, Nicodemus, et. al.

There's that pesky parable of the talents, again (Matt. 25):

"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.

But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'

His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master


And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'

 But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


You are overwhelming DEAD WRONG!!!

 ;D

I like it.   :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #122 on: November 05, 2011, 10:51:17 AM »
agreed, but that has nothing to do with the reason why conservatives give more than liberals...sorry just facts...
it was hypebole to excentuate the idiocy of your post that cons donate b/c their pastors tell them to...::)
I knew it wouldnt ;)

Agree.  People donate because their pastors tell them too.  Right.   ::)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #123 on: November 05, 2011, 01:09:57 PM »
That may be.  I'd like to know where working-class conservatives make their donations.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with people being influenced by their churches to donate.  That's an honorable role for the church to play.  But if the church has a habit of preaching politics rather than spirituality, and a significant amount of these "donations" are going to support that, then I'd like to know that, too.

As of right now, I cannot see how a measure could be made as to the political ideology of a person donating something, unless it is a political donation.  The roundabout ways that have been offered, such as comparing shoppers at a Neiman-Marcus in San Francisco to Walmart shoppers in Bowling Green, or comparing generalities of a "red" state to "blue" state are just worthless and potentially dishonest.

In any case, I am approaching this with an open mind.

tu_holmes

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Re: Pat Robertson: Christians should not join ‘Occupy Wall Street’
« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2011, 09:58:39 AM »
they arent giving time and blood to churches...

I agree that neither does near enough however our poor arent what many would consider poor either.

I agree with you about the mega churchs which is why im not a big fan of joel olsteen here in houston.

I agree that if you look at the "poor" in the US, that there is no comparison between our poor and any other "poor" around the world... Even our poorest live very very well compared to a lot of other countries in the world.