Planning first cycle 14-16%bf----Cut first or proceed with it?

[Borracho]

So I'm not as lean as I wanna be right now but I think its time for my first cycle.  Would you guys lean out naturally first or since I'm a roid virgin can I expect to gain plenty of muscle while leaning out at the same time?

[Borracho]

What were you planning?

Was thinking just some test at 500mgs with some finasteride and an anti e for at least 12 weeks. I'm prone to mpb so I don't wanna risk losing it earlier than I have to.

[Borracho]

Anyone care to answer my stupid question?

[Rearden Metal]

Give us some pics to work with, both of you.

[Borracho]

Give us some pics to work with, both of you.

I ate like complete shit all day and drank a shit load of water btw.

[Rearden Metal]

Good wide clavicles. How long have you been training/how old are you?

I'd start with simplicity, 500mg test & 300 mg deca should be a good start if it's legit. If you don't grow a bunch from that and eating, then you'll know not to waste your money and time going crazy on gear.

I mean there's more effective cycles of course, but if you can't grow on that from pure natural, you have bad genetics for growth.

[Borracho]

Good wide clavicles. How long have you been training/how old are you?

I'd start with simplicity, 500mg test & 300 mg deca should be a good start if it's legit. If you don't grow a bunch from that and eating, then you'll know not to waste your money and time going crazy on gear.

I mean there's more effective cycles of course, but if you can't grow on that from pure natural, you have bad genetics for growth.

Thanks for the advice. I've been training for about 10 years and I turned 30 this year.  I do plan on keeping it simple as you mentioned but I'm still concerned if I should try to lean out naturally before I do any of that. I don't wanna go any higher on the bf thats for sure. I was wondering that since I haven't touched any sort of hormone I would perhaps be able to gain weight with at least maintaining my current bf. Would that be a safe assumption??

I am aware that fat gain will be determined by my diet but since I will be adding hormones will weight gained be distributed in a more effective manner?.. I mean for me naturally I could not go any higher in body weight without gaining an unacceptable amount of fat.

[Rearden Metal]

Thanks for the advice. I've been training for about 10 years and I turned 30 this year.  I do plan on keeping it simple as you mentioned but I'm still concerned if I should try to lean out naturally before I do any of that. I don't wanna go any higher on the bf thats for sure. I was wondering that since I haven't touched any sort of hormone I would perhaps be able to gain weight with at least maintaining my current bf. Would that be a safe assumption??

I am aware that fat gain will be determined by my diet but since I will be adding hormones will weight gained be distributed in a more effective manner?.. I mean for me naturally I could not go any higher in body weight without gaining an unacceptable amount of fat.

You'll lose fat but gain water. I'm not sure how serious you are about gear/training so it's hard to make recommendations. There's cycles then there's CYCLES.

[Borracho]

You'll lose fat but gain water. I'm not sure how serious you are about gear/training so it's hard to make recommendations. There's cycles then there's CYCLES.

Cool, thats what I was hoping to hear. I'm pretty dedicated with the training and eating part. I haven't touched hormones for many different reasons but the main one was that I have an addictive personality. I always thought that I would never train naturally without being on a cycle once trying them for the first time. But I'm ok with that now. Training is still fun but after training for this long naturally the only thing I can do is manipulate my bf.... so I think its time to take it  up a notch.

I will begin with a cycle and as time progresses I can move on to the CYCLES 

[Rearden Metal]

Pragmatic view. Be as objective and harsh on yourself as possible and make the most of your time, money and effort.

[howardroark]

Dude... Why not run a cutting or recomp cycle? Like blast-cruise DC style with test, tren, and mast, 50mg each ED. Or maybe test + high dose var. That way you could reach a really low bodyfat percent while growing muscle. After you reach that goal, you can switch to a nice long bulker, like a test+deca stack for 15-20 weeks.

[Borracho]

Dude... Why not run a cutting or recomp cycle? Like blast-cruise DC style with test, tren, and mast, 50mg each ED. Or maybe test + high dose var. That way you could reach a really low bodyfat percent while growing muscle. After you reach that goal, you can switch to a nice long bulker, like a test+deca stack for 15-20 weeks.

You mean DC as in doggcrapp?

The test and anavar sounds good. But see, the thing is that I'd prefer my first go at it to be all about mass. It would feel like a rip off to me to be dieting on my first cycle. I don't know if that makes any sense...

[Rearden Metal]

You mean DC as in doggcrapp?

The test and anavar sounds good. But see, the thing is that I'd prefer my first go at it to be all about mass. It would feel like a rip off to me to be dieting on my first cycle. I don't know if that makes any sense...

Makes sense psychologically but in reality it's a beginners pitfall. The truth is the leaner you can get, the mire effective your bulk period will be. Phil Heath has never been your bodyfat level for a single day, and who has grown faster than him?

[MB_722]

copy and pasted from somewhere else. not me/mine.

... he's also a vegetarian. 

2ND CYCLE
Week 1-24 test Enan 250mg every 8th day
Week 1-24 Eq 500mg weekly (250mg every 4th day)
Week 1-8 dbol 30mg(on days) 20mg(off)
Week 1-24 T4 75mcg (Prescription)
Week 27 PCT Nolvadex/clomid (have HCG on hand)

Stats
Age 32
Height 5'9"
BW 231LB
BF 15-18%
Been training on/off for 13-14 Years.

Lifts
- Barbell Bench Press 245lb * 6-7reps
- Smith squat 335lb*8-10 (Olympic style) [discount 30lb due to machine apparatus]
- Barbell deadlift 385lb*8

Workout regimen (Focus on compound movements)
- 3 times a week (sometimes 4)
- all body parts trained once a week
- Cardio 2-3 * weekly 20-45 minutes -- Interval StairClimber & sprinting

Diet
- Vegetarian, no meats or fishes, eggs once in a while.
- Last cycle calorie intake 7500-8000 (may be off a few hundred up or down, however this was closely measured on numerous occasions for optimal gains)
- Off cycle caloric intake 3000-3500 (I did not jump off from 7500+ to 3000 calories, i very slowly tapered this down)
- Sources of protein Lentils/cheese/milk/whey

2nd cycle diet
- Calorie intake 4500-5000
- No Weight gainers
- Whey protein (2 scoops on day & 1 scoop off day) + Food (primary source of calories is raw food for proteins/carbs/fat)
- Taurine/Potassium (others to maybe offset pumps/pain zinc/magnesium)

Goal - for a lean bulk cycle.

During cycle I will NOT use ANY SERMs or/and AI unless necessary. I don't find a little bloat that uncomfortable. Furthermore, after a few cycles anecdotal evidence suggests it goes away - lets see. On 1st cycle, I had the worst of the bloat during the first 4 weeks, then by week 8 the water retention greatly alleviated itself. With the addition of Anavar in week 12, it nearly eliminated. Eq is also known for keeping the bloat under control. On 1st cycle, the back and leg pumps/pain remained a problem throughout, wish i could have done something about them. Other than that i did not have any other problems that could not be controlled. Got the occasional zit, & blood pressure and heart rate was elevated in the beginning only. Gyno flared up twice, took Nolva to fight that off.

Why I am stacking test with Eq? - i favored Eq due to various qualities, especially collagen synthesis given my joint problems on the last round and over the years due to trauma injuries. Furthermore, i would rather have something slow and steady - and keep above average gains, than inflate like a blowfish & then pop at the end.

1st cycle (Dec-April 2011)
Week 1-18 500mg Testosterone enanthate Cycle. (every 4th or 5th
day injection)
Week 12-18 added 20mg Anavar (Oxandrolone) ED
Week 21-22 PCT Nolvadex 20mg 1st week, followed by 10mg for 1 week.

1st cycle gains - i kept about 70-80% of the gains in my estimation in terms of strength and muscle mass. Purely measured in terms of bodyweight gains the percentage falls to around 51%. For in depth details see detailed log of 1st cycle

[Borracho]

Makes sense psychologically but in reality it's a beginners pitfall. The truth is the leaner you can get, the mire effective your bulk period will be. Phil Heath has never been your bodyfat level for a single day, and who has grown faster than him?

hahha....touche!

copy and pasted from somewhere else. not me/mine.

... he's also a vegetarian.  

Thanks. I hadn't considered any thyroid drugs but I think this might be the best option if I were to start at my current bf. To be honest I did clean up my diet recently cause I don't feel comfortable at my bf level right now. Its psychological just as RM mentioned....

[SaltShaker]

So I'm not as lean as I wanna be right now but I think its time for my first cycle.  Would you guys lean out naturally first or since I'm a roid virgin can I expect to gain plenty of muscle while leaning out at the same time?

thats the whole point of roids imho... that it enables you to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time... it just really depends on how strict you plan on being with your diet. if you eat clean, you can achieve both at the same time

[Borracho]

thats the whole point of roids imho... that it enables you to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time... it just really depends on how strict you plan on being with your diet. if you eat clean, you can achieve both at the same time

If I ate what I eat now I probably would lose fat and gain muscle I think. But see I've been natural for so long I don't know anything about juice. I mean I can read all day and night but without any real experience I just feel completely overwhelmed. Its like starting on a whole other journey and I'm beginning to wonder if I really want to at this point. Fuck I really just over think things. 

[SaltShaker]

If I ate what I eat now I probably would lose fat and gain muscle I think. But see I've been natural for so long I don't know anything about juice. I mean I can read all day and night but without any real experience I just feel completely overwhelmed. Its like starting on a whole other journey and I'm beginning to wonder if I really want to at this point. Fuck I really just over think things. 

 Dont over complicate shit and change too many variables at once...

if i were you, for now, just introduce juice to your system.. see how your body responds. if you feel hungry, eat, if not, dont force feed yourself...

[Borracho]

Dont over complicate shit and change too many variables at once...

if i were you, for now, just introduce juice to your system.. see how your body responds. if you feel hungry, eat, if not, dont force feed yourself...

That sounds like the best option cause I mean if I do feel like I'm gaining fat I can always add different compounds at that point right.

[SaltShaker]

That sounds like the best option cause I mean if I do feel like I'm gaining fat I can always add different compounds at that point right.

every person's body responds different to gear for 2 reasons:
1) genetics
2) the quality of the gear you get, may be  crappy or excellent quality

so its hard for anyone to tell you PRECISELY what to do, unless that person sees you on a daily basis and can see the changes in your body. So any advice you read here should be taken with a grain of salt... for example,  create a thread about the effective dosage of dbol/per day, and you'll get 50 different answers, because every phat shouldd be taken with a grain of erson has different genetics, and they get different quality gear.. so all we can do is povide input/guideline



so the question is, how are you looking without gear? do you look like shit? the answer to that question pretty much answeres 2 questions:

1) are you working out properly?
2) is your current diet clean or bad?

its hard to answer without knowing your diet, but if you eat shitty food, then tighten that up a little, dont be eating mcdonalds every day. dont listen to most perma bulkers here saying when on juice, eat whatever thats in your sight, i dont beilive that just because your juicing, thats a license to eat shitty food. Im all for adding more quality proteins/carbs to your diet, but keyword being "quality"


a simple generic diet i can recommend to you is 3 square meals, 2 shakes, and snacks. for example

7am: 5-6 egg white, 1-2 whole eggs, a slice of whole grain wheat bread

around 9, 9:30: if your hungry, have some cottage cheese with cashews. or have a protein shake with a couple of table spoon of peanut butter etc

around noon or 1 pm: eat your lunch, with big portion of protein, anywhere from 8-14oz chicken or steak or fish depending on how big you are.. and have a healthy sie of veggies, salad etc

lets say you workout at 5 pm

4:30pm: 2 scoops of protein shake, 2 table spoon of peanut butter

5: workout

6:30pm: 2 scoops of protein shake with some fast acting carbs ( bannana, rice cake etc)

7:30-8pm: dinner , again, 8-10oz of steak, chicken, or fish



thats a sample diet,just to give you a guideline...

[Borracho]

I rarely ever eat junk food...I actually enjoy eating chicken, fish eggs and shit like that everyday. What I do is get my protein source and then add the rice, bread, vegetables, mayo or whatever. Lately I've been sitting at home so I pretty much just eat all day and snack more than usual. Never do cardio anymore though but I really wanna start for health reasons only. I know the calorie content of my meals but I'm not anal about it or anything. Training is at no more than 4 times a week.

So everything is in check atm and I did tighten up my diet starting this week. During the next few weeks I'm gonna be grabbing some test, anti e, and some finasteride. I plan on running it for at least 16 weeks. I haven't figured PCT as of yet but its not a problem getting that sort of stuff on the same day if need be.

What do you guys think?

[abijahmaniaco]

Was thinking just some test at 500mgs with some finasteride and an anti e for at least 12 weeks. I'm prone to mpb so I don't wanna risk losing it earlier than I have to.

you wont cut on test.

Good wide clavicles. How long have you been training/how old are you?

I'd start with simplicity, 500mg test & 300 mg deca should be a good start if it's legit. If you don't grow a bunch from that and eating, then you'll know not to waste your money and time going crazy on gear.

I mean there's more effective cycles of course, but if you can't grow on that from pure natural, you have bad genetics for growth.

looking at your pics. after running t&d you'll just bigger and even bloofier than you look now. sure you'll be a lot stronger, but who cares apart from other fags at your gym.

if it's the look you want i say low dose gh + test propionate, tren acetate, masteron 50, 50, 50 blend.

and for the love of god, clean up that diet.

Thanks for the advice. I've been training for about 10 years and I turned 30 this year.  I do plan on keeping it simple as you mentioned but I'm still concerned if I should try to lean out naturally before I do any of that. I don't wanna go any higher on the bf thats for sure. I was wondering that since I haven't touched any sort of hormone I would perhaps be able to gain weight with at least maintaining my current bf. Would that be a safe assumption??

yeah, but on t&d you'll retain water making your look worse.

I am aware that fat gain will be determined by my diet but since I will be adding hormones will weight gained be distributed in a more effective manner?

not without tren and/or gh

I mean for me naturally I could not go any higher in body weight without gaining an unacceptable amount of fat.

that's cause you were eating the wrong things. and naturally maxed anyway.

You'll lose fat but gain water.

the only fat burning effect would be from the added muscle's caloric requirements, but that wont amount to anything noticeable.

Dude... Why not run a cutting or recomp cycle? Like blast-cruise DC style with test, tren, and mast, 50mg each ED. Or maybe test + high dose var. That way you could reach a really low bodyfat percent while growing muscle. After you reach that goal, you can switch to a nice long bulker, like a test+deca stack for 15-20 weeks.

this. although from what i hear. anavar is over-rated and over-priced.

copy and pasted from somewhere else. not me/mine.

... he's also a vegetarian retard. 

fixed

I rarely ever eat junk food

sure you do. obese people tell me this too. just means you justify the junk you eat, self denial--whatever, i don't care. you don't look like that without enjoying some junk.

...What do you guys think?

i think you'll be disappointed.

[Borracho]

you wont cut on test.

looking at your pics. after running t&d you'll just bigger and even bloofier than you look now. sure you'll be a lot stronger, but who cares apart from other fags at your gym.

if it's the look you want i say low dose gh + test propionate, tren acetate, masteron 50, 50, 50 blend.

and for the love of god, clean up that diet.

yeah, but on t&d you'll retain water making your look worse.

not without tren and/or gh

that's cause you were eating the wrong things. and naturally maxed anyway.

the only fat burning effect would be from the added muscle's caloric requirements, but that wont amount to anything noticeable.

this. although from what i hear. anavar is over-rated and over-priced.

fixed

sure you do. obese people tell me this too. just means you justify the junk you eat, self denial--whatever, i don't care. you don't look like that without enjoying some junk.

i think you'll be disappointed.

Thanks for the input. But seriously, I've just been over eating for the last 3 months cause I'm "in between" jobs right now..lol. I've been pretty much eating 24-7 and the most caloric demanding activity I do all day aside from the gym is typing here on GB.

As I mentioned I did tighten up my diet so I'm restricting calories atm. I will lean out over the next few weeks but probably will only run a basic test cycle when I start. I just don't wanna run so many things like gh, tren, masteron, etc. my first time around. I'm not gonna go from not drinking even a whey shake in years to hoping on gh and all that shit. I wanna take it one step at a time.

And wouldn't an anti estrogen help with bloat related sides from test anyway?

[abijahmaniaco]

I just don't wanna run so many things like gh, tren, masteron, etc. my first time around. I'm not gonna go from not drinking even a whey shake in years to hoping on gh and all that shit. I wanna take it one step at a time.

most web sources offer a "cut mix" or a "ripped blend" that's already pre-mixed so it's just one inject three times a week plus hgh.

And wouldn't an anti estrogen help with bloat related sides from test anyway?

depends. i ran nolvadex first time around. it doesn't cut the water it just competes with estrogen at the estrogen receptor.

now, you can run other anti-e's that will cut or almost totally eliminate water (which is dangerous, inhibits gains, and defeats the purpose of running a "bulking cycle" all together)

[trapz101]

u can do lean bulk with tren/eq...