Author Topic: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving  (Read 5258 times)


headhuntersix

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 03:03:57 PM »
I guess u didn't here the police transcripts where Pike tells them he's going to mace them and they say "Ok". You're an idiot.
L

avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 03:15:39 PM »
I guess u didn't here the police transcripts where Pike tells them he's going to mace them and they say "Ok". Your an idiot.

I haven't heard the transcript, but even if he did, does that make the use of pepper spray reasonable in this, particular, case anyways? The kids were simply sitting down and offering no resistance of any kind. Note that this is the same Lt. Pike that consciously didn't use pepper spray when he was facing an attacker who lunged at him and his fellow officers armed with scissors.

P.S.: Just out of curiosity, is English a second language or do you just not know how to spell?

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 03:19:39 PM »
I haven't heard the transcript, but even if he did, does that make the use of pepper spray reasonable in this, particular, case anyways? The kids were simply sitting down and offering no resistance of any kind. Note that this is the same Lt. Pike that consciously didn't use pepper spray when he was facing an attacker who lunged at him and his fellow officers armed with scissors.

P.S.: Just out of curiosity, is English a second language or do you just not know how to spell?
LOL they werent dispersing, thats not resistance?

I love how ppl try to paint these idiots as innocent ppl just minding their own business. Fact of the matter is they were breaking the law. Now was the reaction equal to the action I dont think so but these morons arent innocent in this.

avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »
LOL they werent dispersing, thats not resistance?

I love how ppl try to paint these idiots as innocent ppl just minding their own business. Fact of the matter is they were breaking the law. Now was the reaction equal to the action I dont think so but these morons arent innocent in this.

First of all, get one thing straight: I didn't paint them as anything at all, nor did I make any kind of proclamations about their "innocence" whatever that term might mean in this context. I merely stated the facts - they were sitting down, offering no resistance and no threat. I also pointed out that it seems kind of comical to me that someone who chose to not use pepper spray to tackle a dangerous attacker wielding scissors would choose to use it in this particular situation.

Now as to whether sitting-in was breaking the law, that's by no means certain. Having tents up overnight was a violation of University Regulations, but that's not equivalent to breaking the law.

Have a nice day tonyfootinmouth  ;D

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 03:37:42 PM »
First of all, get one thing straight: I didn't paint them as anything at all, nor did I make any kind of proclamations about their "innocence" whatever that term might mean in this context. I merely stated the facts - they were sitting down, offering no resistance and no threat. I also pointed out that it seems kind of comical to me that someone who chose to not use pepper spray to tackle a dangerous attacker wielding scissors would choose to use it in this particular situation.

Now as to whether sitting-in was breaking the law, that's by no means certain. Having tents up overnight was a violation of University Regulations, but that's not equivalent to breaking the law.

Have a nice day tonyfootinmouth  ;D
LOL so not vacating the premises isnt resisting to you? sure thing hoss...::)

they werent simply sitting they were blocking walk ways, forming human chains, disturbing the peace at a college where classes are going on...

sorry moron, facts are facts

avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 04:08:58 PM »
LOL so not vacating the premises isnt resisting to you? sure thing hoss...::)

Not according to the California State University guidelines. U.C. Davis is a part of the California State University system.


they werent simply sitting they were blocking walk ways, forming human chains, disturbing the peace at a college where classes are going on...

Even if they were doing all of the above, that's still allowed by University Regulations. What's not allowed is the use of pepper spray the use of pepper spray the way Lt. Pike used it. Per University of California System regulations pepper spray "is to be sprayed in a one second burst. It is not meant to be used repeatedly on an individual, or for long periods of time." and it's use is only appropriate when escalating force in order "to gain control of an unarmed attacker, or to overcome resistance likely to result in injury to either a suspect, a victim, or the officer."

There were no attackers (armed or unarmed) to gain control of, nor any resistance that could likely lead to injury.

I'd also note that further down, the University of California System regulations state that the "use of chemical agents [...] shall be limited to the protection of life or property when other means of lawful force are either unsuitable or unavailable."

There was no life or property in danger and in need of protection.

[To preemptively address the criticism that pepper spray isn't a chemical agent, I'd point you to the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention to which the U.S. is a signatory, that classifies pepper spray as a chemical agent and outlaws its use in war.]


sorry moron, facts are facts

They sure are. The problem is that your "facts" aren't exactly as cut-and-dry as you make them out to be. Rather, they're a mix of fact, conjecture and personal opinions. And you know what they say about opinions...

blacken700

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 04:28:36 PM »
looks like tonymctones got owned on this one  :-[

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 05:07:25 PM »
Not according to the California State University guidelines. U.C. Davis is a part of the California State University system.


Even if they were doing all of the above, that's still allowed by University Regulations. What's not allowed is the use of pepper spray the use of pepper spray the way Lt. Pike used it. Per University of California System regulations pepper spray "is to be sprayed in a one second burst. It is not meant to be used repeatedly on an individual, or for long periods of time." and it's use is only appropriate when escalating force in order "to gain control of an unarmed attacker, or to overcome resistance likely to result in injury to either a suspect, a victim, or the officer."

There were no attackers (armed or unarmed) to gain control of, nor any resistance that could likely lead to injury.

I'd also note that further down, the University of California System regulations state that the "use of chemical agents [...] shall be limited to the protection of life or property when other means of lawful force are either unsuitable or unavailable."

There was no life or property in danger and in need of protection.

[To preemptively address the criticism that pepper spray isn't a chemical agent, I'd point you to the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention to which the U.S. is a signatory, that classifies pepper spray as a chemical agent and outlaws its use in war.]


They sure are. The problem is that your "facts" aren't exactly as cut-and-dry as you make them out to be. Rather, they're a mix of fact, conjecture and personal opinions. And you know what they say about opinions...
LOL please show us your proof for this idiocy...

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2011, 05:15:10 PM »
"Sunday, the university television station, AggieTV, interviewed her about Friday's events. She says that police had been asked to "go and remove the equipment" and that "the intent was not to remove the people or disperse the crowd."

Asked whether police were within their rights to spray and arrest protesters, she says, "So technically speaking, the police followed protocol. But what really made us all really wonder is that protocol is not appropriate all the time and mostly is not appropriate at least to be followed the way it was followed, my guess is, when you have a gathering of peaceful students."

from an interview with the president.

sorry hoss you dont have the right to go plop down where ever you want whenever you want.

I agree that their reaction was over zealous to say the least but if asked to leave by authorities, yes you must leave.

You cant sit outside a convient store if the owners ask you to leave either...

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2011, 05:20:00 PM »
"According to eye witnesses the police arrived on the scene and were gentle and kind escorting protesters away while focusing calmly on their assignment: removing the tents. This went without incident, until a protester resisted the removal of a tent and put under arrest. As this was unfolding more and more bystanders gathered around the scene. With a few tents left standing a large circle had formed around the police and the protesters. In fact, two rings had formed with the inner ring largely recording the event up close and the outer ring just observing. The other protesters did not agree with the person being arrested and decided to sit on the floor with their arms interlocked (according to UC Berkeley Chancellor Birgeneau this is not an act of non-violent civil disobedience)."

yep sounds like there was absolutely no resistance to me...

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 05:24:19 PM »
I guess u didn't here the police transcripts where Pike tells them he's going to mace them and they say "Ok". You're an idiot.
what crawled up your fucking ass lately?  It's a funny or die clip for fuck sake. ::)

You can't even joke with some of these touchy rightwingers lately...  That's not funny!!! take it back!!!! LOL  ::)

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2011, 05:26:16 PM »
I dont know why you keep bringing up the security guards, I already told you they acted stupidely

what you cant seem to come to terms with is that just as they did so did the morons protesting.

You dont get to be an idiot and then act suprised when you get responded to like an idiot...

blacken700

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2011, 05:28:52 PM »


 
Guidelines for the use of pepper spray in the California State University system state that

the use of chemical agents…shall be limited to the protection of life or property when other means of lawful force are either unsuitable or unavailable.
Neither life nor property was endangered by the protest at UC Davis, and many other means of lawful force were available– including arresting the protestors.

The CSU guidelines specifically define the conditions for the use of pepper spray in what the report– rather chillingly– calls “the normal escalation of force”. It defines the appropriate situations as

to gain control of an unarmed attacker, or to overcome resistance likely to result in injury to either a suspect, a victim, or the officer.
Again, there were no attackers here– except the police; and nothing visible seems “likely to result in injury”– except the attack by the police.

Most damning is the contrast between the CSU guidelines and what the UC Davis officers did. The CSU guidelines say that pepper spray

is to be sprayed in a one second burst. It is not meant to be used repeatedly on an individual, or for long periods of time.
The emphasis on “one second burst” is in the original, not my addition. The UC Davis officer maintained a continous stream of pepper spray for far longer, and moved back and forth– that is, he repeatedly sprayed the same individuals.


tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 05:31:16 PM »

 
Guidelines for the use of pepper spray in the California State University system state that

the use of chemical agents…shall be limited to the protection of life or property when other means of lawful force are either unsuitable or unavailable.
Neither life nor property was endangered by the protest at UC Davis, and many other means of lawful force were available– including arresting the protestors.

The CSU guidelines specifically define the conditions for the use of pepper spray in what the report– rather chillingly– calls “the normal escalation of force”. It defines the appropriate situations as

to gain control of an unarmed attacker, or to overcome resistance likely to result in injury to either a suspect, a victim, or the officer.
Again, there were no attackers here– except the police; and nothing visible seems “likely to result in injury”– except the attack by the police.

Most damning is the contrast between the CSU guidelines and what the UC Davis officers did. The CSU guidelines say that pepper spray

is to be sprayed in a one second burst. It is not meant to be used repeatedly on an individual, or for long periods of time.
The emphasis on “one second burst” is in the original, not my addition. The UC Davis officer maintained a continous stream of pepper spray for far longer, and moved back and forth– that is, he repeatedly sprayed the same individuals.


AGAIN YOU IDIOT!!!!

I ALREADY SAID THE POLICE WERE STUPID!!!

THAT DOESNT EXCUSE THE IDIOCY OR WRONG DOINGS OF THE PROTESTORS

WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU MORONS NOT UNDERSTAND, SERIOUSLY?

blacken700

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 05:34:43 PM »
did you not say the police followed protocol

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 05:39:27 PM »
did you not say the police followed protocol
I DIDNT SAY THAT THE CHANCELLOR OF UC DAVIS SAID THAT YOU JACK ASS!!!

and she was referring to the decision to use the peppr spray not the application of it, if you read you would have understood that but its painfully apparent you have an extreme aversion to reading hence your youtube obsession.

The police shouldnt have used pepper spray, they shouldnt have used it in the way they did when they decided to use it.

THAT DOESNT EXCUSE THE IDIOCY OR WRONG DOINGS OF THE PROTESTORS


avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 05:44:08 PM »
"Sunday, the university television station, AggieTV, interviewed her about Friday's events. She says that police had been asked to "go and remove the equipment" and that "the intent was not to remove the people or disperse the crowd."

Asked whether police were within their rights to spray and arrest protesters, she says, "So technically speaking, the police followed protocol. But what really made us all really wonder is that protocol is not appropriate all the time and mostly is not appropriate at least to be followed the way it was followed, my guess is, when you have a gathering of peaceful students."

from an interview with the president.

Actually, those were statements by the UC-Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi, not UC President Mark Yudof. You should try to quote people accurately and correctly.

You will note that I didn't say the police didn't follow protocol. I said that the use of pepper spray was against the stated rules of the University of California System. I understand that this might be too subtle a distinction for you, but it is quite a substantial one.


sorry hoss you dont have the right to go plop down where ever you want whenever you want.

Sure - you can't camp on private property without the owner's permission, for example. But we are talking about government-owned land that is open to the public. We also have explicit University Regulations in the mix that permit protests, and statements by the Administration to the effect of "we fully and unequivocally support your right to protest peacefully." All this changes the calculus considerably.

Note that I do not disagree that UC-Davis can prohibit the use of tents or require permits for such tents. But that doesn't mean that they can limit or control the assembly of people, in general, unless they do so in a completely content-neutral way, which they could not have done in this case. This is well established precedent at the State and Federal levels.


Quote
I agree that their reaction was over zealous to say the least but if asked to leave by authorities, yes you must leave.

Their reaction was more idiotic than overzealous. According to Katehi, they had been told to do it peacefully, and to not do it if there were too many students or if the students were aggressive. In light of the UC-Berkeley incidents, the Police should have known that their actions were under a microscope and would be recorded and posted on the web. But that's a story for another time.

you are wrong about one other thing too. You state unequivocally that if you're asked by authorities to leave then you have to comply. That isn't quite as true as you make it out to be. I know you've probably watched a lot of Matlock reruns and you own a crappy light grey suit, but that your legal analysis skills leave a lot to be desired. You need at least 6 seasons of Law and Order, still.

Quote
You cant sit outside a convient store if the owners ask you to leave either...

They can ask. Doesn't mean you have to. You might be on a public sidewalk. For sure, if you are on private property, you have to comply with the wishes of the property owner, or face trespassing charges when the Police arrive. But the rules are quite different for public properties, like the UC-Davis campus and political protests in particular.

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 05:48:34 PM »
Actually, those were statements by the UC-Davis Chancellor Linda Katehi, not UC President Mark Yudof. You should try to quote people accurately and correctly.

You will note that I didn't say the police didn't follow protocol. I said that the use of pepper spray was against the stated rules of the University of California System. I understand that this might be too subtle a distinction for you, but it is quite a substantial one.


Sure - you can't camp on private property without the owner's permission, for example. But we are talking about government-owned land that is open to the public. We also have explicit University Regulations in the mix that permit protests, and statements by the Administration to the effect of "we fully and unequivocally support your right to protest peacefully." All this changes the calculus considerably.

Note that I do not disagree that UC-Davis can prohibit the use of tents or require permits for such tents. But that doesn't mean that they can limit or control the assembly of people, in general, unless they do so in a completely content-neutral way, which they could not have done in this case. This is well established precedent at the State and Federal levels.


Their reaction was more idiotic than overzealous. According to Katehi, they had been told to do it peacefully, and to not do it if there were too many students or if the students were aggressive. In light of the UC-Berkeley incidents, the Police should have known that their actions were under a microscope and would be recorded and posted on the web. But that's a story for another time.

you are wrong about one other thing too. You state unequivocally that if you're asked by authorities to leave then you have to comply. That isn't quite as true as you make it out to be. I know you've probably watched a lot of Matlock reruns and you own a crappy light grey suit, but that your legal analysis skills leave a lot to be desired. You need at least 6 seasons of Law and Order, still.

They can ask. Doesn't mean you have to. You might be on a public sidewalk. For sure, if you are on private property, you have to comply with the wishes of the property owner, or face trespassing charges when the Police arrive. But the rules are quite different for public properties, like the UC-Davis campus and political protests in particular.

first of all i corrected it see the post above yours hoss...

second lets drop the police schtick all together b/c i said in my first post of this thread the police were stupid so youre preaching to the choir.

There was obviously resistance which you originally said there was none of, the campus police actually do have the right to ask you to leave if your being a problem and disorderly like they became when they started resisting the removal of their tents...

sorry hoss deal with it....

Soul Crusher

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 05:51:25 PM »
Cops were stupid fro a PR point of view. 

avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 05:52:27 PM »
[...] according to UC Berkeley Chancellor Birgeneau this is not an act of non-violent civil disobedience [...]

Just a small note: The opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Berkeley on whether an act is or is not non-violent civil disobedience is no more relevant than the opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Davis.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 05:53:49 PM »
Just a small note: The opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Berkeley on whether an act is or is not non-violent civil disobedience is no more relevant than the opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Davis.

The cops IMHO acted stupidly , to borrow an Obama term, for using a highly emotionally charged tactic that they should have known was not going to work. 


Dumb dumb dumb.   

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 05:54:08 PM »
LOL at you trying to degrade me when you create straw men for arguments.

If your standing outside a convient store the owners have the right to have you removed. I didnt say the side walk did I moron?

you dont have the right to protest wherever and whenever you want...plain and simple

yes you have the right to peaceful assembly, you have the right to free speech but those rights end where my rights begin.

And if youre causing a disturbance on campus and I think even a jack ass like you can concede this is a disturbance you can be removed.

Do you think this kind of even is conducive to the learning of those students in class?

do you think it hinders the professors ability to hold a class?

avxo

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 05:55:04 PM »
first of all i corrected it see the post above yours hoss...

Cool - didn't see your post until after I posted.

There was obviously resistance which you originally said there was none of, the campus police actually do have the right to ask you to leave if your being a problem and disorderly like they became when they started resisting the removal of their tents...

I don't know that I would say there was obviously resistance, and I would be very very hesitant to label a sit-in as resistance (even non-violent). But ultimately, none of our opinions matters. The only opinions that will matter, in the end, are those of the Appellate Judges.

tonymctones

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Re: Megyn Kelly Pepper Spray Thanksgiving
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 05:55:33 PM »
Just a small note: The opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Berkeley on whether an act is or is not non-violent civil disobedience is no more relevant than the opinion of the Chancellor of UC-Davis.
wonderful, can we drop the police side now your preaching to the choir broham...