Author Topic: Ron Paul: Iran wants to disrupt world oil supply because we are provoking them  (Read 10638 times)

howardroark

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So we continue this gay low-level proxy war on Iran and how do we benefit exactly? We continue to inflame Arab opinion and we continue to meet the Quranic predicate for Jihad. That is a high price to pay for cheaper gasoline.

headhuntersix

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They don't like us anyway...u and many on this board who've never been over there and talked to these people, really talked to them...don't understand. They aren't us and when people say that...it gets blown off. They don't like us regardless. They don't like each other...they hate each other more then us or Israel..we're in the way but the go juice is there and we have to control it.
L

howardroark

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No, I completely understand that. In fact, that is my point. THEY ARE NOT US. Theirs is a primitive culture. They are religious fanatics. They are still stuck in the Dark Ages or perhaps in the religious wars between the Catholics and the Protestants, if you wanted to make a comparison between them and Western civilization.

To them, our support for Israel, our support of their domestic tyrannies (e.g. Saudi monarchy), and our presence on the Arabian peninsula is a predicate for religious war. In fact, it is the QURANIC predicate for Jihad. That is what they believe God has told them. As long as we stay on their holy lands, they shall fight us tooth and nail.

The best course of action for the United States is to pull out of that region and let them have at it. It is not any of our business what they do once we leave. And once we leave, you are right, their attention will turn away from the United States and toward each other and Israel. That is why it's in Americans' best interests for the US to follow Ron Paul's non-interventionist foreign policy.

howardroark

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And again, is a lot of oil there? Of course. But is it worth trillions of taxpayers dollars and thousands of American lives? Hell no. I'll take $5+ gasoline for lower taxes and less dead Americans.

headhuntersix

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Ok...great and I hope next week we find an alternative fuel but until we're off oil we can't leave. Once we do...we can turn our attention elsewhere and you and I can agree. We're never gonna abandon Israel but our footprint will be smaller. They hated us before we had troops stationed there...we've done alot for the muslims...they forget about Bosnia..where we never should have been. They forget about Desert Storm....which pissed off Bin Laden, they forget about Somalia..again Bin Laden. These people suck but they happen to be sitting on all that friggen oil.
L

howardroark

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I agree that we've done a lot for them, but they don't realize it. For them, our support of Israel and dictatorships in the Muslim world, as well as our presence on the Arabian peninsula is the casus belli for religious war. As long as we continue our current foreign policy, we're destined to see more American lives and more taxpayer money wasted.

And no, we do not need to be over there in order to secure oil. Right now, we're spending trillions of dollars on keeping the oil flowing. People will pay more in taxes because of that. However, if we leave, then we'll spend less and we'll be able to cut taxes but oil prices will be higher. It's a trade-off. Personally, I'll take the lower taxes, less Americans getting killed, and higher gasoline prices over higher taxes, more Americans getting killed, and lower gasoline prices.

Besides, we have plenty of oil, coal, and natural gas resources that could be developed domestically if we followed Ron Paul's domestic policy.

Also, I highly doubt that a country like Iran or other Muslim countries sitting on billions of barrels of petroleum will stop selling oil to the world market. If they do, they ruin their economies. Pumping out oil is as beneficial to them as it is to us.

Fury

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So we continue this gay low-level proxy war on Iran and how do we benefit exactly? We continue to inflame Arab opinion and we continue to meet the Quranic predicate for Jihad. That is a high price to pay for cheaper gasoline.

Arab opinion? Most Arabs hate Iran as they're PERSIAN and Shia, to boot.

howardroark

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Arab opinion? Most Arabs hate Iran as they're PERSIAN and Shia, to boot.

I know. I misspoke, I should have said "Muslim," since the problem is not only with Arabs, but with Persians, Turks, Berbers, and many other ethnic/cultural groups that are predominantly Muslim.

headhuntersix

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Right but you need to secure trade routes..US Navy/ U have to be in position to respond to anything - basing rights. When we exploite our own resourses we'll be able to do that but its not happening now or fast enough. Obama and his bad of douchbags have stopped or delayed everything they can. We should have nuke plants everywhere...nope. We should be taking advanatge of natural gas. How many jobs would be created by converting trucks and large transport vehicles to gas. How many jobs on piplines and support for those projects..nope the EPA and the wackjobs get to dictate how to destroy America. I can't wait to pull out of the Middle East. I want the rags to starve on all that sand but its not going to happen fast enough. Alot of what RP says is good but we have to live in 2011. His ideas should be implemented as part of the long game. If we get off foreign oil..countries like Venezuela collapse. Iran no longer can play her games, so it all benefits us and we can concentrate on rebuilding the country and dealing with China and Russia..but its not going to happen in the next 4 years so we have to have one foot in and one foot out.
L

howardroark

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Right but you need to secure trade routes..US Navy/ U have to be in position to respond to anything - basing rights. When we exploite our own resourses we'll be able to do that but its not happening now or fast enough. Obama and his bad of douchbags have stopped or delayed everything they can. We should have nuke plants everywhere...nope. We should be taking advanatge of natural gas. How many jobs would be created by converting trucks and large transport vehicles to gas. How many jobs on piplines and support for those projects..nope the EPA and the wackjobs get to dictate how to destroy America. I can't wait to pull out of the Middle East. I want the rags to starve on all that sand but its not going to happen fast enough. Alot of what RP says is good but we have to live in 2011. His ideas should be implemented as part of the long game. If we get off foreign oil..countries like Venezuela collapse. Iran no longer can play her games, so it all benefits us and we can concentrate on rebuilding the country and dealing with China and Russia..but its not going to happen in the next 4 years so we have to have one foot in and one foot out.

I don't think you understand...

1) It's not as if oil from the Middle East would suddenly disappear if we pulled out. They need to sell us oil in order to make money. It is as vital for them, if not moreso, as it is for us. So pulling out of the Middle East won't increase gasoline prices nearly as much as you claim.

2) Even if gasoline prices rose in response to the US pulling out, so what? That would encourage oil exploration outside of the Middle East while encouraging people to reduce how much gasoline they use. That is the function of prices. If you want to decrease oil prices even more, then vote for Ron Paul who will encourage free market policies and dismantle agencies such as the EPA.

3) The amount of money we've spent and we will spend on our wars, our proxy wars, and on diplomacy far exceeds the costs to our economy of higher gasoline prices. A >$1 trillion tax cut over the past ten years would have done much more good for our economy than spending $1 trillion on wars in Muslim countries.

240 is Back

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i'll say it again.   on day 1 of Ron Paul's presidency, someone would test us.  And he would put a nuke in their capital city.  No warning, nothing.

Then he would tweet "Who else wants some?"

Nobody would ever fck with the USA, ever again.  We'd get our military out of their countries, we'd develop our own energy sources here.  problem solved.

howardroark

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Exactly... Ron Paul's foreign policy isn't isolationism. It's simply this: we won't fuck with your lives if you don't fuck with ours. That's why he supported nabbing Osama Bin Laden, but not nation-building in Iraq or Afghanistan or low-level bombing of Pakistan, or bombing Libya, or supporting Muslim dictatorships in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Libya, and other countries at one time or another.

Had oil prices been higher had we not gone into the Middle East? Possibly, but then again countries like Iran will still have to make money SOMEHOW, so they'll sell oil to us either way. And if oil prices would have been higher, so what? We would have saved thousands of American lives and over $1 trillion in taxpayer money.

howardroark

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Speaking of the costs of our wars in the Muslim world... Econometric studies have shown that a 10% reduction in the corporate tax in America would increase economic growth by 1% per year. The corporate tax rate here is roughly 30% and over the past ten years it has averaged $300bn in revenue per year... so let's use basic math: if instead of spending >$1 trillion on wars we would have cut corporate taxes by 10%, then we would have lost $100bn/year in tax revenues, so that's $1 trillion over ten years... however the increase in economic growth by 1% per year would have compounded to an economy that's almost 13% larger.

Of course, if we did more accurate math and tried to calculate the total cost of our involvement in the Middle East, it would be much greater than $1 trillion; while cutting taxes would have a much lesser cost due to dynamic scoring. We probably could have cut corporate taxes by one-third, eliminated capital gains taxes, and seen a boom in economic growth for the same amount it cost us to go to subsidize our oil and Israel interests in the Middle East.
 
If anything, such pro-growth policies are more important for our long-term national security interests than getting involved in a religious war.

Agnostic007

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Let me explain my view in a way most GB'ers can understand..

The candidates in any election are Justice League Superheros

The situation in America at any given time is the super villain. 

Now you won't call Batman if Galactus is causing problems, he isn't the right fit.

So Ron Paul has some questionable positions.... so what? We aren't electing him indefinately and his powers are limited anyway. However, he may be the Super Hero we need at the moment to fix our current problem of BIG government and overspending,  or at least he is the most likely to have the most impact of the choices. If after 2 or 3 yrs you find he isn't getting done what he was supposed to or.. he has addressed a problem that was in his bag of tricks but now facing something he isn't qualified to handle, or has just oulived his usefulness, call in Superman next time. You are never going to find one candidate that can do it all, pick the one best suited for what is needed now.

Soul Crusher

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Ron Paul's Iran Comments Raise Questions About His Iowa Surge
 
First Posted: 12/16/11 04:00 PM ET Updated: 12/16/11 04:20 PM ET


 

SIOUX CITY, Iowa -- After Thursday night's GOP presidential primary debate, an influential Iowa Republican leaned over to a reporter for The Huffington Post and said, "Ron Paul lost the Iowa caucuses tonight."

Paul, the 76-year old Texas congressman and gadfly extraordinaire, went on at length during the two-hour debate about Iran, arguing that the U.S. should not use military force to stop them from obtaining a nuclear bomb.

"There is no evidence that they have [a nuclear weapon]. And it would make more sense -- if we lived through the Cold War, which we did, with 30,000 missiles pointed at us, we ought to really sit back and think and not jump the gun and believe that we are going to be attacked," Rep. Paul (R-Texas) said.

"You know what I really fear about what's happening here? It's another Iraq coming. There's war propaganda going on," he said.



Paul's philosophy that the U.S. is overextended militarily around the globe has caught on with many conservatives and Republicans, especially as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have dragged on for a decade.

And many Americans are anxious about the prospect of military action against Iran. But though Paul did at one point say he does not want Iran to have a nuclear weapon, he strayed Thursday into rhetoric that made it sound as if the U.S. should resign itself to such a reality.

"Ehud Barak, the defense minister for Israel, said if he were in Iran, he would probably want a nuclear weapon, too, because they're surrounded, for geopolitical reasons. So that's an understanding," Paul said. "So the fact that they are surrounded, they have a desire. And how do we treat people when they have a nuclear weapon? With a lot more respect."

"What did we do with Libya? We talked to them. We talked them out of their nuclear weapon. And then we killed them," Paul said, in a highly confusing reference to Libya's 2003 abandonment of its nuclear program -- which many attributed to its fear of U.S. military action after the invasion of Iraq, and to the death earlier this year of Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

"So, it makes more sense to work with people. And the whole thing is that nuclear weapons are loaded over there. Pakistan, India, Israel has 300 of them. We have our ships there. We've got to get it in a proper context. We don't need another war," he added.

Paul's insistence that Iran does not yet have a weapon sounded at times as if he was arguing they will not have one, even if that was not what he intended.

Jesse Benton, Paul's campaign manager, defended Paul's remarks.

"Dr. Paul once again distinguished himself as the only candidate with a pro-American foreign policy, and will gain votes because of it," Benton told The Huffington Post. "The media elites and main-stream talking heads may not understand it, but the American people stand with Ron and don't want to overreact and jump recklessly into another trillion-dollar foreign war."

Paul has made comments earlier this year that were tolerant of Iran's likely desire for a nuclear weapon, but has not touched on the subject for most of the fall. And after being ignored by most in the media for much of the last year, Paul has been the subject of increasing attention as the Jan. 3 caucuses approach.

Paul's campaign is widely acknowledged to have probably the best organization and the most passionate supporters in the state, and Paul has begun to head toward 20 percent in Iowa polling. There has even been talk of Paul possibly winning the caucuses.

But some said Paul's comments on Iran Thursday night may reduce the likelihood of such an outcome, because they will turn off some conservatives who would not have supported Paul in the past but may have been considering him in part because they are dissatisfied with the rest of the field.

"Last night's debate likely halted his rise," said Tim Albrecht, communications director for Iowa Gov. Terry Branstad. "It remains to be seen if he'll slip, however, as his supporters remain the most stable and steadfast in terms of their support of Ron Paul."

One Iowa Republican said that even if Paul limits his growth potential, he may already be able to attract 20 or 25 percent support from caucus goers, which still could be enough to win.

But Albrecht told HuffPost that Paul's focus on foreign policy "went precisely where he didn't want to less than three weeks before the caucuses."

"The biggest hurdle for Ron Paul with Iowa caucus-goers remains his foreign policy positions," Albrecht said. "His paid media and mailers have all been focused on the top issue for Iowans, the nation's debt. Ron Paul's biggest strength is fiscal policy. His fiscal focus has skyrocketed his campaign here."

During one exchange in particular, with Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), Paul was dismissive of a recent report by the United Nation's nuclear watch dog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, that was widely interpreted as evidence that Tehran is rapidly closing in on producing a bomb.

"We have an IAEA report that just recently came out that said, literally, Iran is within just months of being able to obtain that weapon," Bachmann said.

Paul shot back: "There is no U.N. report that said that. It's totally wrong on what you just said."

Bachmann noted simply, "It's an IAEA report." It was as if she were saying that if the IAEA is finally saying Iran is after a bomb, then even the most dovish institutions agree with what American hawks have been saying for years. The IAEA has been slower than many in the U.S. foreign policy establishment to conclude that Tehran is in fact pursuing nuclear weapons as its end game.

"That, that is not, that is not true," Paul said again. "They produced information that led you to believe that, but they have no evidence. There's been no enrichment of these bombs."

Paul's suggestion that the IAEA report was intentionally misleading sounded like "black helicopters" talk to the Republican official who spoke to HuffPost after the debate. Even though Paul's point was that there is no evidence that Iran has enriched uranium and weaponized it, to many viewers, his rejections of the IAEA report likely sounded as if he were rejecting the report's broader conclusion, that Tehran is actively pursuing a bomb.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/ron-paul-iran-nuclear-bomb_n_1154244.html


loco

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Let me explain my view in a way most GB'ers can understand..

The candidates in any election are Justice League Superheros

The situation in America at any given time is the super villain. 

Now you won't call Batman if Galactus is causing problems, he isn't the right fit.

So Ron Paul has some questionable positions.... so what? We aren't electing him indefinately and his powers are limited anyway. However, he may be the Super Hero we need at the moment to fix our current problem of BIG government and overspending,  or at least he is the most likely to have the most impact of the choices. If after 2 or 3 yrs you find he isn't getting done what he was supposed to or.. he has addressed a problem that was in his bag of tricks but now facing something he isn't qualified to handle, or has just oulived his usefulness, call in Superman next time. You are never going to find one candidate that can do it all, pick the one best suited for what is needed now.

Man, what a geek you are.  How embarrassing for you.     :(

BTW, The Justice League and Superman are from the DC Universe, while Galactus is from the Marvel Universe.  And you don't call Superman on Galactus.  You call the Silver Surfer.        ;D

Are you saying Ron Paul is the Silver Surfer?    ???

Agnostic007

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Man, what a geek you are.  How embarrassing for you.     :(

BTW, The Justice League and Superman are from the DC Universe, while Galactus is from the Marvel Universe.  And you don't call Superman on Galactus.  You call the Silver Surfer.        ;D

Are you saying Ron Paul is the Silver Surfer?    ???

LOL! I knew someone would catch something wrong with the analogy! I Just read the comics growing up, I am not in the know on Marvel vs DC anymore  :) But I've been waiting for months to get a comic book tie in somewhere and took a shot.


240 is Back

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Econometric studies have shown that a 10% reduction in the corporate tax in America would increase economic growth by 1% per year.


Why didn't the reduction to the bush tax cut levels cause this economic growth?  didn't we try reducing taxes from Clinton level down to bush level - and obama continued this reduced levels.  and economy crashed anyway. 

Soul Crusher

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Why didn't the reduction to the bush tax cut levels cause this economic growth?  didn't we try reducing taxes from Clinton level down to bush level - and obama continued this reduced levels.  and economy crashed anyway. 

240 - are you kidding?  The crash was caused by a housing bubble fueld by cheap credit, spurned on by the fed, GSE's. fraud, etc.   Taxes has nothing to do with it. 

240 is Back

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240 - are you kidding?  The crash was caused by a housing bubble fueld by cheap credit, spurned on by the fed, GSE's. fraud, etc.   Taxes has nothing to do with it. 

stop blaming Newt for everything :(

Soul Crusher

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stop blaming Newt for everything :(

I really hope he drops.   he is at the bottom of my list by far.   He is smart, yes - but he seems so amused by himself its sickening. 

240 is Back

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I really hope he drops.   he is at the bottom of my list by far.   He is smart, yes - but he seems so amused by himself its sickening. 

it seems like the humble candidates are ignored by the GOP voters.

cain, trump, palin, and newt were 4 of the biggest egomaniacs on earth.

howardroark

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Why didn't the reduction to the bush tax cut levels cause this economic growth?  didn't we try reducing taxes from Clinton level down to bush level - and obama continued this reduced levels.  and economy crashed anyway. 

First of all, you can't say that the Bush tax cuts didn't cause economic growth simply because the Bush years weren't the roaring 20's. There could have been other factors that slowed growth that cancelled out the effects of the tax cuts. For example, I think that the increased spending/deficits/debt during the Bush years significantly hampered the economy by putting a drain on national saving and thus investment funds. On the flip side, taxes were higher under Clinton but spending was lower and there were budget surpluses which increased national saving/investment. Also, Clinton benefited from a tech boom that petered out by the time Bush took office. Also, the housing bubble drained a lot of resources from better investment opportunities during the Bush years, which slowed growth. Also, I think that inflation tends to reduce growth by reducing the incentive to save/invest, and some measures of inflation show that it was higher during the Bush years; however some econometric studies allegedly show that inflation does not slow growth, so take that whatever way you will.

Secondly, the Bush tax cuts were inefficiently allocated, IMO. Cutting the same amount of revenue from other taxes would have had a much bigger impact on economic growth. For example, using the ~$1 trillion that was put into the Bush tax cuts for significantly cutting corporate income and capital gains taxes across the board would have had a stronger growth impact by increasing the incentive to save/invest. Instead, the Bush tax cuts focused on cutting tax rates and changing around the tax code where it doesn't really matter. I think the Bush tax cuts were driven more by political considerations than by economic ones. That isn't necessarily bad, since the tax cuts did reduce the burden of government on individuals, but in terms of economic growth, better targeted tax cuts could have accomplished much more.

Roger Bacon

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The bloodlust of the neocons is insatiable.  There will never be enough wars for them

I wish we could ship these great warriors over, so they could personally fight for Israel.

Fury

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Ok...great and I hope next week we find an alternative fuel but until we're off oil we can't leave. Once we do...we can turn our attention elsewhere and you and I can agree. We're never gonna abandon Israel but our footprint will be smaller. They hated us before we had troops stationed there...we've done alot for the muslims...they forget about Bosnia..where we never should have been. They forget about Desert Storm....which pissed off Bin Laden, they forget about Somalia..again Bin Laden. These people suck but they happen to be sitting on all that friggen oil.

The whole Bosnia situation is a complete farce and one of the earliest examples of the "politically correct" pandering to fanatical Islam by the western world. That entire region is now being completely infected by the Wahhabist cancer and no one has anything to say about it.