After reading a ton, I am wondering if Kigs would be a good addition to a first

[csnut18]

Ok guys, I have been on the various AAS boards for awhile and I am finally getting ready to do my first cycle at 26 yrs old. I initially planned on taking 500mgs of human grade Sustanon and 50mgs of Proviron along with any and all required ancillaries but I am sort of tempted to use the kigs as well. I was thinking they could really help me with conditioning as well as helping me stay anabolic through pct. I was hoping to hear a general opinion on gh being used in a first cycle, rather than it's use pertaining to me. Thanks so much.

[Stavios]

why don't you just try some roids at first

what are your goals ?

[csnut18]

Well, I have a very good structure and I would like to capitalize on that by losing some fat and gaining some muscle which seems pretty reasonable for a good first cycle. I just see so much talk here about the benefits of gh that I figured it may be worth indulging.

[Stavios]

giving the fact that you lose everything when you get off cycle (or most of it), I would only use HGH if I would use roids year round.

if not I wouldn't even bother with hgh as you will always loose everything when you get off

but that's just my way of thinking

[csnut18]

giving the fact that you lose everything when you get off cycle (or most of it), I would only use HGH if I would use roids year round.

if not I wouldn't even bother with hgh as you will always loose everything when you get off

but that's just my way of thinking

Well, I was planning on running hcg at 250ius twice a week throughout the cycle along with very high quality human grade clomid and nolva, post cycle. I know I am not going to walk around off cycle like I would if I was on, but I have seen many people end up holding onto much more muscle than they had before they ever used the sauce. I deff see what you are saying about the gh and it's certainly a valid opionion.

[SmoofCat]

I mean it can't hurt. You just will never know what AAS alone will feel like. And since you are an old man in terms of starting hormones (first cycle @ 26 is old man on thunder dome), you will in your next cycles begin to actually need GH. Especially when you are getting around 28-30. I don't know anybody in that age range personally who is on AAS only and still lean. I know a lot of bloofs that are 30 years old running 2 grams of sust every week with no GH, but they are 18% bf and will never step on a stage.

What are your goals? How long do you want to run kigs for? How long was this proposed cycle going to be? Are you opposed to bridging instead of coming off? These are the questions I would like to know to determine whether or not you want to take it to the next level and add in kigs. Because if you are just going to do a 10 week cycle and then come off for 6 months or a year, then I would just say stick to AAS. If you are going to commit to GH, then I would recommend beginning the kigtropin, but stay on it for a while longer than your 10-12 week aas cycle .

[local hero]

. Especially when you are getting around 28-30. I don't know anybody in that age range personally who is on AAS only and still lean. I know a lot of bloofs that are 30 years old running 2 grams of sust every week with no GH, but they are 18% bf and will never step on a stage.
.

hey!...im knocking on 31 and i still manage it... altho im breaking me piggy bank open to get me self some gh this yr


i agree with pupil stavio, a virgin steroid user doesnt realy need gh to start with, put that money aside for a year down the line

you can build a great physique on gear alone

[csnut18]

I mean it can't hurt. You just will never know what AAS alone will feel like. And since you are an old man in terms of starting hormones (first cycle @ 26 is old man on thunder dome), you will in your next cycles begin to actually need GH. Especially when you are getting around 28-30. I don't know anybody in that age range personally who is on AAS only and still lean. I know a lot of bloofs that are 30 years old running 2 grams of sust every week with no GH, but they are 18% bf and will never step on a stage.

What are your goals? How long do you want to run kigs for? How long was this proposed cycle going to be? Are you opposed to bridging instead of coming off? These are the questions I would like to know to determine whether or not you want to take it to the next level and add in kigs. Because if you are just going to do a 10 week cycle and then come off for 6 months or a year, then I would just say stick to AAS. If you are going to commit to GH, then I would recommend beginning the kigtropin, but stay on it for a while longer than your 10-12 week aas cycle .

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it. I will tell you a little more about myself. I am 6' and 195lb naturally. I have a 6 pack but it isn't that great as I am naturally prone to holding onto fat. I was a fatboy from birth. My structure and muscle bellies are really good though with my waist being very small. I just figured that it's time to stop short changing myself and take this to the next level. My interest in GH in addition to the roids came with all the things I have been reading, primarily on here, about the dramatic fatloss that gh brings. I dont want to stay on gear all year or even cruise. Having said that though, won't gh help keep me anabolic through pct if I run it way past my roid cycle? Thanks a ton guys.

[SmoofCat]

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it. I will tell you a little more about myself. I am 6' and 195lb naturally. I have a 6 pack but it isn't that great as I am naturally prone to holding onto fat. I was a fatboy from birth. My structure and muscle bellies are really good though with my waist being very small. I just figured that it's time to stop short changing myself and take this to the next level. My interest in GH in addition to the roids came with all the things I have been reading, primarily on here, about the dramatic fatloss that gh brings. I dont want to stay on gear all year or even cruise. Having said that though, won't gh help keep me anabolic through pct if I run it way past my roid cycle? Thanks a ton guys.

yes it will help you stay anabolic past your AAS cycle because it is the most powerful hormone. However, you are on the thunder dome and very few people here are going to recommend that you PCT. Having said that, if you want to PCT and come off, I highly suggest staying on GH through the process and well beyond.

Furthermore, I can't help you at all with PCT. I have never had a successful PCT, and I followed all the bullshit stickies on the other sites to a T. Now I just stay on, and even when I am cruising on as little as 200 mg of sustanon after a cycle, I don't lose anything- NOTHING. It really brings to light the discrepancies in our philosophy on thunder dome VS the mob mentality, parrot talk philosophies on most other boards. You hear of successful PCTs on the internet, but you never, ever see one in person. The reason for this is mob mentality; a general fear of going against the grain.

But it is up to you to do trial and error. Don't trust me. Trust your experiences. So go ahead and try PCT. See if it works for you. See if it does not work for you. Then report back to us and we can work from there.

[csnut18]

yes it will help you stay anabolic past your AAS cycle because it is the most powerful hormone. However, you are on the thunder dome and very few people here are going to recommend that you PCT. Having said that, if you want to PCT and come off, I highly suggest staying on GH through the process and well beyond.

Furthermore, I can't help you at all with PCT. I have never had a successful PCT, and I followed all the bullshit stickies on the other sites to a T. Now I just stay on, and even when I am cruising on as little as 200 mg of sustanon after a cycle, I don't lose anything- NOTHING. It really brings to light the discrepancies in our philosophy on thunder dome VS the mob mentality, parrot talk philosophies on most other boards. You hear of successful PCTs on the internet, but you never, ever see one in person. The reason for this is mob mentality; a general fear of going against the grain.

But it is up to you to do trial and error. Don't trust me. Trust your experiences. So go ahead and try PCT. See if it works for you. See if it does not work for you. Then report back to us and we can work from there.

I hear what you are saying but many people don't get themselves Aventis Clomid and Astra Zenica Nolva. They just get the research compnay stuff and for Nolva and Clomid, that doesn't seem wise. I have a feeling you are totally correct though and that many more people than are coming forward, don't have luck off cycle. I would be happy if I completed pct with a drop of a better physique than I have now. I know I can't look like I am in the middle of the cycle, when I am not.

Also Smoofcat, did you start your cycle with good test levels? I just got a bloodtest and my natural level is 850ng/dl which is pretty good. It would seem that someone who has good natural production, would have an easier time coming off.

[SmoofCat]

I hear what you are saying but many people don't get themselves Aventis Clomid and Astra Zenica Nolva. They just get the research compnay stuff and for Nolva and Clomid, that doesn't seem wise. I have a feeling you are totally correct though and that many more people than are coming forward, don't have luck off cycle. I would be happy if I completed pct with a drop of a better physique than I have now. I know I can't look like I am in the middle of the cycle, when I am not.

Also Smoofcat, did you start your cycle with good test levels? I just got a bloodtest and my natural level is 850ng/dl which is pretty good. It would seem that someone who has good natural production, would have an easier time coming off.

Yeah in fact I had higher than average levels, from what my doctor told me (I did get a blood test the last tim I fully came off, because I was worried about my levels AND I wanted HRT). However, I had apparently fully recovered testosterone wise. Having said that, in the 2 months I was off, I lost 15 lbs (no gh no AS... totally off, just PCT bullshit).

And I have used straight from the pharmacy clomid and nolvadex, there is absolutely, positively no difference between that shit and the top line research chemicals. The active ingredient is the active ingredient. The fact is that nolvadex serves its purpose, and that is to control symptoms while on, but it won't keep you from regressing back to your natural peak in due time, or even regress past that due to low T, when you are off. Gains from steroids are not permanent.

Look at Craig Titus. He got sent to prison, and went from 250-185 almost immediately. He went from a cut, lean 250 to a fat 185 in a matter of months because the hormones got taken away. A "PCT" wouldn't have done shit for him. His natural limit was 185 lbs, and that is what he regressed to (except at this point he was older, hence the fat).

It's the same for a 26 year old like yourself. If you are 195 lbs right now @ 6 foot tall and you are holding a good amount of fat like you said, you can quickly and easily blow up to 220 on the right compounds, but when you come off it all, you will go to 210. Then 205. Then 200. Then 195. And you are back to where you started. Maybe 196.

You can obviously come off for a short period of time (about 1 month) and not suffer too much. That is referring to AAS. You can come off of GH for 90 days max and not suffer too much. That is your window of opportunity. If you follow a conventional "PCT" of "Time on + PCT : Time off" you will lose almost everything no matter what way you cut it. You might keep your body weight higher than where you started, but guess what? Your bf% will be higher and that is why.

Testosterone is based on a negative feedback loop, meaning you can only utilize a certain amount naturally, and if your body produces more than that amount naturally, it can not be utilized. This is why you can't naturally be over your natural limit. No GNC test booster will trick your body. No "tribulus". No "squats and oats." Only synthetic.

And for 6 foot your natural limit IF YOU ARE 7-8% is not a pound over 185 lbs (that is actually too generous of a figure). If you are 195 lbs, your bf straight up is not 7% at 6 feet tall if you are not on hormones, or have been off hormones for a number of months.

[nosleep]

I hear what you are saying but many people don't get themselves Aventis Clomid and Astra Zenica Nolva. They just get the research compnay stuff and for Nolva and Clomid, that doesn't seem wise. I have a feeling you are totally correct though and that many more people than are coming forward, don't have luck off cycle. I would be happy if I completed pct with a drop of a better physique than I have now. I know I can't look like I am in the middle of the cycle, when I am not.

Also Smoofcat, did you start your cycle with good test levels? I just got a bloodtest and my natural level is 850ng/dl which is pretty good. It would seem that someone who has good natural production, would have an easier time coming off.

YOUR FOOLING YOURSELF. YOU WONT KEEP THE GAINS YOU MAKE OFF OF STEROIDS, ONCE YOU TAKE AWAY THE STEROIDS. TAKE AWAY THE STEROIDS, TAKE AWAY THE ABILITY TO UTILIZE MORE FOOD, TAKE AWAY THE ABILITY TO ACCUMULATE PROPER LEAN BODY MASS. NOT VERY DIFFICULT.

YOU'LL SEE FOR YOURSELF. YOU CAN KEEP THE SAME BODY WEIGHT, BUT AT A HIGHER BODY FAT.

[csnut18]

Yeah in fact I had higher than average levels, from what my doctor told me (I did get a blood test the last tim I fully came off, because I was worried about my levels AND I wanted HRT). However, I had apparently fully recovered testosterone wise. Having said that, in the 2 months I was off, I lost 15 lbs (no gh no AS... totally off, just PCT bullshit).

And I have used straight from the pharmacy clomid and nolvadex, there is absolutely, positively no difference between that shit and the top line research chemicals. The active ingredient is the active ingredient. The fact is that nolvadex serves its purpose, and that is to control symptoms while on, but it won't keep you from regressing back to your natural peak in due time, or even regress past that due to low T, when you are off. Gains from steroids are not permanent.

Look at Craig Titus. He got sent to prison, and went from 250-185 almost immediately. He went from a cut, lean 250 to a fat 185 in a matter of months because the hormones got taken away. A "PCT" wouldn't have done shit for him. His natural limit was 185 lbs, and that is what he regressed to (except at this point he was older, hence the fat).

It's the same for a 26 year old like yourself. If you are 195 lbs right now @ 6 foot tall and you are holding a good amount of fat like you said, you can quickly and easily blow up to 220 on the right compounds, but when you come off it all, you will go to 210. Then 205. Then 200. Then 195. And you are back to where you started. Maybe 196.

You can obviously come off for a short period of time (about 1 month) and not suffer too much. That is referring to AAS. You can come off of GH for 90 days max and not suffer too much. That is your window of opportunity. If you follow a conventional "PCT" of "Time on + PCT : Time off" you will lose almost everything no matter what way you cut it. You might keep your body weight higher than where you started, but guess what? Your bf% will be higher and that is why.

Testosterone is based on a negative feedback loop, meaning you can only utilize a certain amount naturally, and if your body produces more than that amount naturally, it can not be utilized. This is why you can't naturally be over your natural limit. No GNC test booster will trick your body. No "tribulus". No "squats and oats." Only synthetic.

And for 6 foot your natural limit IF YOU ARE 7-8% is not a pound over 185 lbs (that is actually too generous of a figure). If you are 195 lbs, your bf straight up is not 7% at 6 feet tall if you are not on hormones, or have been off hormones for a number of months.

I totally understand what you are saying. I know you are correct about all this stuff. I just hope I can somehow keep the slightest bit more than what I gained naturally. If I am not happy with what I am able to keep, I will probably do what many of you do and just stay on. If I make that decision, I am going to search out ways of getting at least test legally prescribed, even though I am goin to add in plenty of roids that I obtained on my own.

As far as the growth hormone usage for this first cycle, the one thing that actually has driven me to question it, was the fear of coming off everything and losing the benfits it showered onto me, while being left with negatives. It would suck losing lots of muscle while being left with biffer paws. I know this doesn't happen for the most part, but what do you think about that? Thanks so much for everything.

[whitewidow]

or use the HGH first. that way your just using a slin pin. and then you will gte used to pinning and the haropoon pins wont seem so bad. first time I saw a 21 gauge needle I was like whoa!

[SmoofCat]

I totally understand what you are saying. I know you are correct about all this stuff. I just hope I can somehow keep the slightest bit more than what I gained naturally. If I am not happy with what I am able to keep, I will probably do what many of you do and just stay on. If I make that decision, I am going to search out ways of getting at least test legally prescribed, even though I am goin to add in plenty of roids that I obtained on my own.

As far as the growth hormone usage for this first cycle, the one thing that actually has driven me to question it, was the fear of coming off everything and losing the benfits it showered onto me, while being left with negatives. It would suck losing lots of muscle while being left with biffer paws. I know this doesn't happen for the most part, but what do you think about that? Thanks so much for everything.

There is a  very simple ways to keep what you gained: bridging. And I don't mean bridging on a gram of test and orals. I mean bridging for a month or two on 250 mg of sustanon. This is significantly more test than your could produce naturally (and even if you could somehow produce it, you couldn't utilize it due to the fact that the male body produces test on a negative feedback loop) and it is enough to support a huge amount of muscle.

I have a thread on here titled "using a second compound on cruise" or something like that. There is some really good input there form veteran members. Go search that thread out. It should be on the first or second page of the steroid board here.

[csnut18]

There is a  very simple ways to keep what you gained: bridging. And I don't mean bridging on a gram of test and orals. I mean bridging for a month or two on 250 mg of sustanon. This is significantly more test than your could produce naturally (and even if you could somehow produce it, you couldn't utilize it due to the fact that the male body produces test on a negative feedback loop) and it is enough to support a huge amount of muscle.

I have a thread on here titled "using a second compound on cruise" or something like that. There is some really good input there form veteran members. Go search that thread out. It should be on the first or second page of the steroid board here.

I might very well do that in the not so distant future but for now I am inclined to try and rehabilitate my HPTA, after the cycle. I do want to have kids ultimately. Thats sort of the way I see it. I might change my mind on that though and cruise. My gut tells me that I am too young to make that decision.

[whitewidow]

I hear what you are saying but many people don't get themselves Aventis Clomid and Astra Zenica Nolva. They just get the research compnay stuff and for Nolva and Clomid, that doesn't seem wise. I have a feeling you are totally correct though and that many more people than are coming forward, don't have luck off cycle. I would be happy if I completed pct with a drop of a better physique than I have now. I know I can't look like I am in the middle of the cycle, when I am not.

Also Smoofcat, did you start your cycle with good test levels? I just got a bloodtest and my natural level is 850ng/dl which is pretty good. It would seem that someone who has good natural production, would have an easier time coming off.

850ng is actually over what a males natural test level should be. 250-780 is normal range. mine was at 758ng after my PCT and v=being on almost all year. I got it tested when I was off for about 4 months, using hcg,nolva,clomid and DHEA.

[whitewidow]

I would also use a source who has human grade gear domestic. this way you can stay away from rsiky UGL's. I only think stranger has a good ugl set-up. I her alot of complaints and most are from guys using bad ugl gear

[lyquid]

850ng is actually over what a males natural test level should be. 250-780 is normal range. mine was at 758ng after my PCT and v=being on almost all year. I got it tested when I was off for about 4 months, using hcg,nolva,clomid and DHEA.

frig was a meat chart where they had tested toms of males all diff age groups. But I remember was alot more rare om the high emd that some males had mere ome thousamd mg. Thimk by age sicty the aberage was three humdred amd twemty  mg.

[csnut18]

850ng is actually over what a males natural test level should be. 250-780 is normal range. mine was at 758ng after my PCT and v=being on almost all year. I got it tested when I was off for about 4 months, using hcg,nolva,clomid and DHEA.

Ok, so just to make sure I am understanding you correctly. You were on cycle for a year and then did pct. 4 months after pct, your test level was 758ng/dl. You seemed to have recovered extremely well. That's a very good test level. On some of the sourceboards, I have seen people who have actually recovered to a higher than their natural level, of testosterone.
I was wondering of you could share your age and what your natural level was before you ever started cycling. Also, how many cycles did you do prior to this year long one?
I know I asked quite a few questions and I can't thank you enough in advance for answering them.

[Arnold jr]

I don't see any problem using HGH the first go around...we're talking about the safest of all performance supplements.

Anyway, if HGH is used for a long enough period, through the entire cycle, and after you come off for a time as well....and even a few weeks before the cycle if the cycle itself isn't very long....you will keep more of your gains than you would otherwise. HGH is something that permanently changes you. No, you won't keep everything, without the high influx of hormones that would be impossible, but you'll be much better off.

As a side note, the idea that seems to be the new theme on this board, that you can't keep any of your gains once you come off is ridiculous. If you come off and stay off for a very long period of time, say more than a year, sure, you're eventually going to lose everything. But for the guy who cycles and takes breaks but does so in a continuous fashion, if he's losing most of his gains during his off period he's doing something wrong.

[Stavios]

I don't see any problem using HGH the first go around...we're talking about the safest of all performance supplements.

Anyway, if HGH is used for a long enough period, through the entire cycle, and after you come off for a time as well....and even a few weeks before the cycle if the cycle itself isn't very long....you will keep more of your gains than you would otherwise. HGH is something that permanently changes you. No, you won't keep everything, without the high influx of hormones that would be impossible, but you'll be much better off.

As a side note, the idea that seems to be the new theme on this board, that you can't keep any of your gains once you come off is ridiculous. If you come off and stay off for a very long period of time, say more than a year, sure, you're eventually going to lose everything. But for the guy who cycles and takes breaks but does so in a continuous fashion, if he's losing most of his gains during his off period he's doing something wrong.

I did lose a lot of muscle in my 10 weeks off but I also couldn't train like I wanted and had to eat what was given to me (shitty fried food, low protein)

usually when I come off for 10 weeks it ain't THAT noticable

4-5 months tho... that's another story.

[Max B]

I don't see any problem using HGH the first go around...we're talking about the safest of all performance supplements.

Anyway, if HGH is used for a long enough period, through the entire cycle, and after you come off for a time as well....and even a few weeks before the cycle if the cycle itself isn't very long....you will keep more of your gains than you would otherwise. HGH is something that permanently changes you. No, you won't keep everything, without the high influx of hormones that would be impossible, but you'll be much better off.

As a side note, the idea that seems to be the new theme on this board, that you can't keep any of your gains once you come off is ridiculous. If you come off and stay off for a very long period of time, say more than a year, sure, you're eventually going to lose everything. But for the guy who cycles and takes breaks but does so in a continuous fashion, if he's losing most of his gains during his off period he's doing something wrong.

I actually agree with you for once lol... you can keep gains up to 4-5 months like stavios said but thats if you're lucky.. more like 90 days with aas, same as gh15 says about the 90 day hgh window of opportunity if you will....

[gh15]

the use of gh as first ingredient in cycle sholud depend on the bodybuild estrogenic ratios,, if a fella has HIGH estrogen he will never look good on aas by themselves,, his igf is low ,, his hgh is pretty low,, you have to understand this fellas,,

i recomend to use hgh in first cyclde if you are from specific heritage or if youe esrogen is high,, you should know who you are already ...

if you are very musculine fella ,, defined cut ,, space betwene front teeth ...you wil do well even with ouf hgh until you are 30 year old or over,,

if you are more feminine estrogenic type fella ,, bigger but also more puffed,, more mass,, both fat water and muscle all of them ...you will need hgh to look impressive TO EVER look like bodybuild you wil need hgh


hgh usage is dependent on estrogen ratios in body,, for you want hgh to increae igf levels and igf is the sole THE SOLE responsibility for cell volumizaition and manipulation and division and multipication and balonieviasion,, HGH is! the name of the game

as i said before many many many times ,, about 75 % of bodybuild 2000s woud never become bodybuild if hgh wasnt around,, they just dont cut it ,, they dont have what it take....they are not serge nubret and they are not sergio oliva,, 75% woudl never even think about bodybuild with out gh getting into the scene


gh15 approved

[SmoofCat]

I don't see any problem using HGH the first go around...we're talking about the safest of all performance supplements.

Anyway, if HGH is used for a long enough period, through the entire cycle, and after you come off for a time as well....and even a few weeks before the cycle if the cycle itself isn't very long....you will keep more of your gains than you would otherwise. HGH is something that permanently changes you. No, you won't keep everything, without the high influx of hormones that would be impossible, but you'll be much better off.

As a side note, the idea that seems to be the new theme on this board, that you can't keep any of your gains once you come off is ridiculous. If you come off and stay off for a very long period of time, say more than a year, sure, you're eventually going to lose everything. But for the guy who cycles and takes breaks but does so in a continuous fashion, if he's losing most of his gains during his off period he's doing something wrong.

How long is the off period though? If the off period is 6 months, of course you are going to regress back to your natural limit. You are a natural, after all! If the off period is 1 month, then you will not lose everything. In my experience though, if you go off for anything even approaching 3 months (more like 2 honestly), you really start to revert back to your natural limits, fast. I have never, ever met a person who has come off for 6 months who didn't go back to what they were at their natural peak. Never. It just isn't what happens.

Now obviously if you have gotten up to 260 lbs @ 5'10'' and you are 8% bf, and then you decide to come off for 6 months, you are not going to lose 100 lbs in that 6 months. But will you go down to 220? Even 210? You fucking bet you will. The reason you can maintain that mass is because of the hormones. Take the hormones away, and you can't retain it. It really is that simple, and I am a firm believer in what I am saying due mainly to trial and error, but also to the fact that I have never in my life seen someone come off for half a year and not revert 75%-100% back to their natural limit. Never.

But I have never seen a 5'10'', 260 lb guy @ 8% come off for 6 months... This is the other side of my argument. The truly big guys NEVER COME OFF to try it out. It is only the 200 lb, 5'10'' guys who do the cycling.

Name me one 250 pounder @ 5'10'' sub 10% bf who has ever come off for 6 months and didn't dip below 210. It doesn't exist. You simply lose the size once the hormones are out of the equation. I think it is a little weird that I am even defending this point so adamantly, because it seems like common sense to me that the gains you make that are past your natural limits on steroids and HGH are not yours... They are on rented time... Once your subscription (stash) runs out, that size starts to go away.

Now however, there are life long subscriptions available. And some of us choose this option, to never, ever come off. We decided to do this because we are so sick of losing all of our size when we come off for a fewe months.