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Author Topic: Did Rumsfeld intentionally thwart defenses to let the plane hit the Pentagon?  (Read 17150 times)
OzmO
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« on: October 11, 2011, 12:52:31 PM »

At this point, two hijacked planes had been deliberately flown into buildings, causing horrific disaster.  Why would they think another hijacked plane was any different?

Let's stay here for a while.  We can get to the WTC's and the Seismic readings later.

This might be hard to explain good enough with out writing a book lol.  So i will give it a try.  

Here's how the radar and transponder systems worked in the USA at the time.  There are basic 2 types of Radar.  Primary:  basic radar that sweeps a 250 mile radius.  You know, the radar screen that shows a "blip" as the radar passes.   Secondary radar: that works with transponders.  A transponder is essentially sending a message from the plane to the radar saying this is who i am, were i am at, and this where i am going (flight plan) etc.   And ATC radar which goes out about 60 miles from each airport.

At any one time in the USA there are 5000 planes in the air.  In the NYC and DC you can imagine there was likely 300-400 planes flying around that morning.  

During the cold war we had upwards of 32 alert bases around the country.  After the cold war there was a serious movement to stop spending the money and that figure shrunk down to about 11.  On the east coast there were 3 from the tip of Maine to the tip of Florida.  National guard bases don't factor because they train without live ammo.   Lots the radars were scaled back, by guess who?  Colin Powell who argued that we didn't need to spend the money because the cold war threat was over.

As i said before, all our procedures and protocol were for an attack coming from outside.  If a plane comes with in 250 miles of the USA and doesnt have a transponder code and is not identified with in 3 min then there is a "Active Air Defense Scramble" where f-15's on a hot pad are sent out to get a visual identification.  When this happens civilian (FAA) authorities are notified and instructed to "clear the way" for the interceptors to make sure no mistaken ID's happen.  It is all a well rehearsed and thought out planned procedure.  But not from an attack from inside our borders and not from an attack with a few hijacked planes mixed in with lots of other planes.  

Now let's get back to the morning of 9/11.  First off there was mass confusion as to what was happening all that morning.  Not everyone knew exactly what was going on.  All kinds of reports are coming in.  At that time there was ZERO procedure from an attack with in.  And there was ZERO procedure for shooting down a civilian passenger plane.  (now there is at the 2-star level).  No one had the authority to authorize the shooting down of a passenger jet except maybe the Potus and who the hell would want to make that decision considering there could easily be a mistake.  General Arnold who was the Air force General in charge of air defense at Tindal AFB didn't have the authority and the colonel in charge at NEADS (North eastern air defense sector) certainly didn't.  

ADD all that to the chaos of not really knowing exactly what is going on AND where the next attack is coming from or to.  So now the ATC loses contact with flight 77.  They turn their transponder off.  No one can find the plane let alone they don't know were it is going to attack next.  So they finally get a couple of jets up to find it but its too late.  Even if they tried using primary radar they would have to sift through hundreds of possible targets get a visual ID and be absolutely sure they are shooting down the right jet.  Not an easy thing to do in the time allotted and the chaos of the event.  

Now all that has changed.  No one will even be able to get away with it now.   The money has been spent.  The defense measures are in place.

See Jack its easy with out knowing how Air Defense worked back then to say they had plenty of time.  But in practice, considering how all it works it was too much for something that wasn't ever planned for.  
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 08:53:39 PM »

Wow, OzmO!!  I am really impressed, bro. Thank you for this. 

Just for the record, yes, both the President and the Secretary of Defense could have issued an unquestionable order to shoot down a civilian plane that day.  Ultimately, of course, the order would be received by the military from the Secretary of Defense. 

And I agree, we should stick to this part for now, because we're getting ahead of ourselves otherwise.

Let me start by challenging something here:

First off there was mass confusion as to what was happening all that morning.

As the second plane was hitting, there was absolutely no question about what was happening.  This fact must be recognized.  We were indeed horrified, but we were not confused about the fact that hijacked planes were being used in a deliberate, coordinated attack on our citizens.

The urgency to neutralize this threat cannot be overstated.  This was to be our primary goal, period.

The identity of the remaining confirmed hijacked plane was obvious, as it was the only plane that had turned off its transponder (93 was not jacked until 9:28).  Just to be clear, everything about its identity was in fact known except its exact location.  So we have a scope of presumable location around which to orbit, we have an identifying airplane type, we have identifying carrier marks and color schemes, and we have individual markings and identifiers.   

Again, we are brought back to question of why Rumsfeld did not order a seek and destroy for what was known to be an active enemy missile.  The order would have been placed as quickly as he could have spoken the words.

I think you put it best when you said:

So they finally get a a couple of jets up to find it but its too late.
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 10:34:31 PM »

Wow, OzmO!!  I am really impressed, bro. Thank you for this.  
And I agree, we should stick to this part for now, because we're getting ahead of ourselves otherwise.

No prob.   Smiley  
 
Quote
Let me start by challenging something here:

Just for the record, yes, both the President and the Secretary of Defense could have issued an unquestionable order to shoot down a civilian plane that day.  Ultimately, of course, the order would be received by the military from the Secretary of Defense.

As the second plane was hitting, there was absolutely no question about what was happening.  This fact must be recognized.  We were indeed horrified, but we were not confused about the fact that hijacked planes were being used in a deliberate, coordinated attack on our citizens.

The urgency to neutralize this threat cannot be overstated.  This was to be our primary goal, period.

The military operates on contingency plans and protocols.  Thousands and thousands of them.  They think up reactions and counter measures for all sort of scenarios.   They might have even had one for something like this, but they certainly didn't practice it.  And there was no protocol absolutely none for who decides to order the shooting down of a American passenger plane full of Americans.  BUSH and Rumsfield weren't just handling this one issue at the time either.   I am not saying they didn't eventually order it, i bet they did.  But for it to get decided and identified in the time allotted, knowing what i know about the military, its amazing they did it as fast they did in launching the plane when they did.

I don't know about your personal back ground but have you ever tried to get a large corporation to make a quick decision?  There are hundreds of people involved in things like this.  

35 minutes after 175 crashed into the second tower flight 77 crashed into the pentagon and the intercept flight was launched from langley 5-10 minutes before that.  

Quote
The identity of the remaining confirmed hijacked plane was obvious, as it was the only plane that had turned off its transponder (93 was not jacked until 9:28).  Just to be clear, everything about its identity was in fact known except its exact location.  So we have a scope of presumable location around which to orbit, we have an identifying airplane type, we have identifying carrier marks and color schemes, and we have individual markings and identifiers.  

Again, we are brought back to question of why Rumsfeld did not order a seek and destroy for what was known to be an active enemy missile.  The order would have been placed as quickly as he could have spoken the words.

I think you put it best when you said:

There's a reason why they have a secondary Radar system and why transponders are so important and why the world uses them now.  Because basic radar can be spotty at times.  when you are trying to pin point a plane in a small area moving at 300+ MPH or what ever  its not that simple.   But when you have both there's very little error.  At that time they had only Primary.  

So even if you take from the first WTC hitting there are so many things working against them getting a armed interceptor over there in time:

first WTC hit  8:46
Second WTC hit 9:02
Pentagon hit 9:37

-  Basic fog or war confusion which leads to hesitation.  Especially the more people involved.

-  A lack of armed and ready jets.  They probably will never release this info to the public, but i would not be surprised if they had scrambled every hot jet they had which if i remember it right was 14 along the eastern seaboard probably patrolling all over the place around many major cities.  And probably just didn't have anything they could arm up super fast like a hot jet is.  You got to realize that intelligence and and satellites would give us weeks worth of warning from an impending Russian attack and since we were in stand down mode it makes sense.

-  They was no clear protocol or procedure to scramble a jet to shoot down a passenger plane.  That alone is a miracle we got a jet vectoring over there in the time we did.

- Not knowing exactly what the next target was.

-  It doesn't matter who you are or what is so apparent and undeniable at the time.  Ordering the downing of a civilian passenger jet is NOT a snap decision in the chaos of the moments (even 60 minutes) they had to decide it.


And think about this:  If they were intentionally delaying the order who would know?

Every ATC in the country who has any experience with will military air space and operations.

Thousands of people at the FAA

Thousands of retired military personal

Every single military pilot.

Its impossible to think thousands have some sort of chip in a grand CT here.  
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 10:41:29 PM »

PS:  what's cool now.  If something like a hijacking occurs in the USA again, with in minutes you'll have an armed jet there.
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2011, 11:22:22 PM »

Also, the reason I say lots of people in on the decision, there is no way Bush and Runsfield were sitting there alone making it.  They were probably 20 or 30 poeple in the room connected to many many arms of government and military, and you gotta at least accept there is a good chance that there was a contingent of people saying don't make snap decisions to shot down fully loaded passenger jets.  And also they are dealing with the realization of 2 major events of death and destruction and we still got it done pretty dam fast considering all the points I brought up.  Not mention knee deep in emotional hysteria in some ways.
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 11:24:51 PM »

And weren't they separated?  Bush and Rumsfeld?
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 08:08:24 PM »

Just to be clear about a few things:

The question isn't so much whether a seek and destroy order would have proven to be fulfilled, as we can never know. The question is why such an order wasn't issued at all during the attack.  

Donald Rumsfeld was our Secretary of Defense, meaning he would have been the person to issue an order to the military, so he is the person to focus on.  

During this critical time, he was not surrounded by staff at a table, reacting to events.  In fact, after being informed of the first hit by a special assistant, he carried on with his normal scheduled agenda for that day.  After being told of the second hit, by an assistant S.O.D. who had just watched it on television and had begun preparations for the Executive Support Center (an emergency response meeting to take place in a room down the hall from Rumsfeld's office), Rumsfeld told this person to wait for him in the ESC, as he had a previously scheduled daily briefing.  He then remained in his own office for approximately 30 minutes until the Pentagon itself was attacked.

It should be pointed out, that after the attack took place on the Pentagon, Rumsfeld left his office without speaking to his command staff, and inexplicably went to the crash site.  The National Military Command Center attempted to reach him during this time, as they had yet to be contacted by Rumsfeld at all, only to find his whereabouts were unknown.  Brigadier General Montague Winfield, who was in charge of the NMCC that morning, stated to the Commission: "For 30 minutes we couldn't find [Secretary Rumsfeld]."
 
Also, surprisingly or not, Rumsfeld has stated that he was "unaware" of what was happening.  He has also used the term "out of the loop" to describe his state during that time.  President Bush, as many will remember, was reading to children at a school, where he chose to stay.
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 09:06:23 PM »

You remember earlier when i was talking about how there was no procedure in place?

When a procedure is put in place people are given responsibilities of making certain decisions.   

There wasn't a procedure for this.  That's one of the reasons for the delays.  Did he have the authority to order the shooting of an American civilian passenger jet?  Unless he was briefed on that exact possibility and told the decision was his, that's enough for hesitation.  There were procedures in place for a Russian attack which included, i am assuming General Arnold and the guy at NEADS issuing the order.  But not for this.

Even then how do we know it wasn't issued?  2 f-16's were launched from Langley initially with out complete destination orders.  They flew north for a bit until they got definite orders to head towards the pentagon to intercept 77.  That's shows an order was given.     

Another thing too, Rumsfeld is an administrator/politician.  He's not a military general in the field.   

That's why after 9/11 there was much criticism regarding who could issue a shoot down order.  That's fixed now and the procedure is in place for a 2 star general to  issue the order. 
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 10:24:50 PM »

OzmO, bro.  I don't think you even bothered reading my post, or you don't believe what it says: Our Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld (the top military man in the country), spent the entire time during the events, from the first attack until the last plane crashed, deliberately avoiding the people he needed to coordinate efforts with.

If you don't believe it, please look at the facts about the Pentagon as it was that morning, including statements from the Pentagon staff.

By the way, YES, an order to seek and destroy an airplane-turned-missile would have been immediately placed into effect if Rumsfeld had given one.  Of course.  And it would have saved 125+ lives.

(And to answer your question about whether we know if the shootdown order was issued at that time: we know it was not issued at that time, because it has been acknowledged that it wasn't issued until 10:20.)
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 12:20:14 AM »

OzmO, bro.  I don't think you even bothered reading my post, or you don't believe what it says: Our Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld (the top military man in the country), spent the entire time during the events, from the first attack until the last plane crashed, deliberately avoiding the people he needed to coordinate efforts with[/i
If you don't believe it, please look at the facts about the Pentagon as it was that morning, including statements from the Pentagon staff.
By the way, YES, an order to seek and destroy an airplane-turned-missile would have been immediately placed into effect if Rumsfeld had given one.  Of course.  And it would have saved 125+ lives.

(And to answer your question about whether we know if the shootdown order was issued at that time: we know it was not issued at that time, because it has been acknowledged that it wasn't issued until 10:10.)

Sorry.  Wasn't meaning to seem that way.

Yet.....  at about 9:25 2 armed f-16's were sent to the pentagon.  Someone made the order or at the very least wanted to put fighters in a position to shot a plane down so an order/decision could be made.  

I'll research Rumsfeld a bit, but i think you are missing the point about who's responsibility it was to make a decision like that and Rumsfeld's role in live military operations.  I think you are putting too much on Rumsfeld.  He's the defense secretary, not the president and not a military general.  He decides policy, management, funding, etc.  NOT attack here, there whatever.
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 09:28:21 PM »

Sorry.  Wasn't meaning to seem that way.

Yet.....  at about 9:25 2 armed f-16's were sent to the pentagon.  Someone made the order or at the very least wanted to put fighters in a position to shot a plane down so an order/decision could be made.  

I'll research Rumsfeld a bit, but i think you are missing the point about who's responsibility it was to make a decision like that and Rumsfeld's role in live military operations.  I think you are putting too much on Rumsfeld.  He's the defense secretary, not the president and not a military general.  He decides policy, management, funding, etc.  NOT attack here, there whatever.


Please research it.  The Secretary of Defense would have been the person to issue the command to the military in this case.  Absolutely, positively, YES.  He and the President are to be in agreement, a 5 second phone call would suffice for that part, and the order is 100% legal.  It would have saved 125 lives or more.

I will tell you this: I have read and/or watched every single mention I could find that involves Rumfeld's activities that morning, including the interviews he himself has given.  I have also read corresponding information in the 911 Commission Report.  If someone has something different, step right up.  I'd love to see it.

From the time the first plane was hijacked, throughout and after the two towers were attacked, until nearly 30 minutes after the Pentagon itself was attacked, Rumsfeld did NOT consult with, coordinate with, strategize with, or even speak with anyone from the military in regard to planning a reaction.

As a matter of fact, he left his office without notifying his command staff, thereby making it impossible for the military coordinators to locate him for a half of an hour.  

He willingly placed himself in a position that made communication impossible.  I'd like someone to disprove this.
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 07:44:02 AM »

So just so I understand this right....  Your contention is that Rumsfeld's actions support the theory that he was the person charged with the rsonsibility to issue the order to shoot down a civilian passenger plane and purposely delayed the order?
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 09:33:50 AM »

So just so I understand this right....  Your contention is that Rumsfeld's actions support the theory that he was the person charged with the rsonsibility to issue the order to shoot down a civilian passenger plane and purposely delayed the order?

Yes. The order to shoot down a passenger plane would have had to be delivered to the military from Donald Rumsfeld's own mouth. This was the legal reality.

But Donald Rumsfeld chose NOT to participate in the emergency response meeting that was immediately created during the second plane hit; he simply told his staff to "wait" for him there. Instead, he remained in his office with a single CIA assistant (with whom he had a previously scheduled daily briefing). He remained there for 30 precious minutes until the Pentagon itself was hit, at which time he left his office without informing his staff, thereby dodging the attempts of the military coordinators who were trying to find him.

Leader of the National Military Command Center: "For 30 minutes we couldn't find him."

The 911 Commission: "We still don't have a full accounting of Rumsfeld's whereabouts and knowledge on the morning of 9-11"

Again, to make sure we're perfectly clear, he deliberately thwarted the chain of command from forming.

I would ask anyone to prove otherwise.
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 09:49:05 AM »

Can you list that evidence of explosions before the plane hit?  And is it only witness testimony?

photographs show a half-dozen clocks that all stopped at 9:32 am.

the official report said the plane hit at 9:37 am.
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 09:50:58 AM »

'IF IF IF there was a 911 conspiracy that we were running-

Then rummy was in a room watching that AWAC plane (the big white one photographed or witnessedat all 3 scenes), making sure everything was running accoring to schedule.
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 12:58:08 PM »

'IF IF IF there was a 911 conspiracy that we were running-

Then rummy was in a room watching that AWAC plane (the big white one photographed or witnessedat all 3 scenes), making sure everything was running accoring to schedule.
Pics of said aircraft at all 3 scenes? Pics proving it is the same aircraft or just random airplanes? White is a fiarly common color when it comes to planes. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2011, 07:17:49 PM »

Jack,  I will be traveling for the next 10 days or so.  I will respond just not always as fast.  I will be researching a few things a bit more.  Thanks.
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 06:37:13 PM »

Jack,  I will be traveling for the next 10 days or so.  I will respond just not always as fast.  I will be researching a few things a bit more.  Thanks.

I hope you have a good trip!  Take care.
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 09:42:28 PM »

I came across a good article about the white plane.  Will post here if I can find it.  There were reports of it on network newscasts, etc., and it is referred to by many as the "Doomsday Plane".
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2011, 07:48:01 PM »

The white plane I mentioned is probably different than what 240 was referring to.

The article was about a white plane that had been seen over the White House by scores of people, and apparently was flown there during the attacks.  It had also been involved in drills that morning.
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2011, 08:16:52 PM »

The white plane I mentioned is probably different than what 240 was referring to.

The article was about a white plane that had been seen over the White House by scores of people, and apparently was flown there during the attacks.  It had also been involved in drills that morning.

There was even some pics somewhere wasn't there?

I think I remember something about that when it was happening.
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 11:43:48 PM »

there's lots of video of the plane.
lots of jim mickaleshefski talking about it.

maybe i just have an awesome memory.. but don't most of us have good memories of that morning?  Don't you remember all the cameras zooming in?

eh, screw it.
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 07:56:03 AM »

there's lots of video of the plane.
lots of jim mickaleshefski talking about it.

maybe i just have an awesome memory.. but don't most of us have good memories of that morning?  Don't you remember all the cameras zooming in?

eh, screw it.

So?
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 08:37:49 PM »

There was even some pics somewhere wasn't there?

I think I remember something about that when it was happening.

Yes, the evidence is strong that this thing was at the White House and elsewhere.  I haven't gotten into this particular story too far, but there is a good argument to say it was an E-4B, which is a "doomsday plane" or close to it.

For myself, I just can't get past the behavior that morning.  The fact that it required Rumsfeld and Bush to be in agreement to start the only conceivable action we could take under this threat, yet neither one contacted the other during the attacks.

And that Rumsfeld deliberately avoided speaking with anyone from the military command during the attacks is even more unimaginable.  But that's exactly what happened.

I can't see an innocent explanation.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »

Yeah, but we dont know that as much of the actual conversations would likely be classified.

Because. I am traveling I really haven't had the time to research more, but the actions of the military don't in my mind point to a purposeful delay.  Ordering the shooting down of passeneger plane is not that easy or simple being that the chance of a mistake would have been real high in the middle of the chaos.  They would have to get near it, identify,then verify.  It looked like they were in the process of doing just that.
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