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Author Topic: Ole Anderson on Vince McMahon (2003):  (Read 5212 times)
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 07:47:22 PM »

Wrong.  Hogan wasn't even the first choice to head the nWo, it was Luger.  Ask Monty. Yeah a stable of Hall, Nash, Perfect, Bret, etc... would have just tanked.  Roll Eyes

And thinking Hogan sustained a bigger reaction from the fans than when the Rock returned is laughable.  I'm not a Rock guy, but he was at least as big a deal returning and sustained a longer pop than Hogan.

I know Hogan wasn't the first choice. It was supposed to be STING, not Luger. A major over babyface had to be the 3rd guy. But, Hogan was the better choice than Sting, anyway. Two ex-WWF superstars joined by the BIGGEST WWF superstar of them all.

As for Hogan and Rock, can you say WRESTLEMANIA 18? Even before then, when Hogan accepted Rock's challenge and later got jacked by Hall and Nash, Hogan was actually getting CHEERED (as a heel) for whipping Rock with his weightlifting belt. At 'Mania itself, the fans were BOOING Rock and cheering Hogan. Chants of "Rocky Sucks", which fans hadn't been using in years, were echoing throughout the SkyDome.


Hogan is like Arnold......Flair is like DeNiro.  You prefer comic books and I prefer War and Peace.....  Hogan is the biggest draw ever, but Flair is the greatest wrester ever.
 
It's like saying that some American Idol winner is a better musician because they sold more albums than someone less known, but who put out far superior music.

One closing thought, Flair could put over a broomstick in a match, Hogan could take another star and turn them into a broomstick.

Anyone in a match with Hogan was in the "Main Event". Hogan's career has been almost as long as that of Flair. So, your comparison is rather inaccurate. Their careers have paralleled each other. And Hogan has had the better deal. He became the face of WRESTLING, not just a particular company, but the business itself. Again, Hogan not only ruled the WWF, he also went to Flair's turf and outshined the Nature Boy there, especially when the NWO was formed.

If you'd said that anyone would be a bigger heel in WCW than Flair, people would have thought you were nuts. But, Hogan did it and it shocked the wrestling world. Luger turning heel? BIG DEAL!! Sting.....Possibly!! Bret Hart? BIG WHOOP!! But Hogan...........that was HUGE.
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 07:49:33 PM »

After the Disney parade hoopla, Hulk more and more frequently became the recipient of lukewarm receptions throughout much of 1995 and on into ‘96. When the nWo angle began, the original idea was to reveal Luger as the third member and leader. During this same time, Hogan recognized that he needed to do something to revive his character, and when he saw how hot Hall & Nash were becoming, he used his political power to scoop Lex’s spot.

Hogan may have become synonymous with the nWo, but it was never formed with the intention of him being a key player in it.
As for Luger, I doubt he would have been as effective in the role. He had an unimpressive track record on the heels of his WWF run; his last big push being the “Lex Express,” which fizzled fast.


Hogan was simply the better fit. Ironically, "Real American" wasn't designed for Hulk Hogan in the WWF. But, when Tom Cenk left and the US Express was no more, the company gave the song to Hogan.....you know the rest!!!
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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2012, 05:46:22 PM »



Anyone in a match with Hogan was in the "Main Event". Hogan's career has been almost as long as that of Flair. So, your comparison is rather inaccurate. Their careers have paralleled each other. And Hogan has had the better deal. He became the face of WRESTLING, not just a particular company, but the business itself. Again, Hogan not only ruled the WWF, he also went to Flair's turf and outshined the Nature Boy there, especially when the NWO was formed.

If you'd said that anyone would be a bigger heel in WCW than Flair, people would have thought you were nuts. But, Hogan did it and it shocked the wrestling world. Luger turning heel? BIG DEAL!! Sting.....Possibly!! Bret Hart? BIG WHOOP!! But Hogan...........that was HUGE.

My comparison is that while Hogan was the bigger "star" Flair is/was the better wrestler.  There is a difference.  I never viewed wrestling from the "he's in the main event so he's the man" because very often there were far better wrestlers in undercard matches because of the politics of the sport, something Hogan was VERY good at.  Flair was at times, but not like Hogan.

To me the proof is that has Hogan EVER had a 5 star match?  Flair has too many to count, all over the world.  IMO, same with promos.  Flair has so much classic stuff that is still entertaining to listen to today.  Hogans old promos are pathetic and like I mentioned in an earlier post, directed towards pre-teens and morons. 

It's all personal choice of course....and I prefer classics and you prefer whatever sells the most albums, it's that simple.
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« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2012, 06:04:42 PM »

Hogan was simply the better fit. Ironically, "Real American" wasn't designed for Hulk Hogan in the WWF. But, when Tom Cenk left and the US Express was no more, the company gave the song to Hogan.....you know the rest!!!


Are you referring to Tom Zenk?
He didn't come to WWF until his buddy Rick Martel brought him in in the Fall of 1986, which was well after production of WWF's The Wrestling Album in 1985.



That album featured "Real American" by Rick Derringer, which was initially intended for use by the tag team of Barry Windham and Mike Rotundo.
Hulk's Rock 'N' Wrestling cartoon theme was featured on the album, but he'd begun using the Derringer track for his own entrance music by Wrestle Mania II.

And, check out the Macho Man sporting the zebra stripes!
I LOVE this era of wrestling!!
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« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2012, 08:26:07 PM »


Are you referring to Tom Zenk?
He didn't come to WWF until his buddy Rick Martel brought him in in the Fall of 1986, which was well after production of WWF's The Wrestling Album in 1985.



That album featured "Real American" by Rick Derringer, which was initially intended for use by the tag team of Barry Windham and Mike Rotundo.
Hulk's Rock 'N' Wrestling cartoon theme was featured on the album, but he'd begun using the Derringer track for his own entrance music by Wrestle Mania II.


And, check out the Macho Man sporting the zebra stripes!
I LOVE this era of wrestling!!

Thanks!! I don't know what I was thinking when I said Tom Zenk. Oh, now I do, I was watching some old Strike Force videos on YouTube.

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« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2012, 08:35:21 PM »

My comparison is that while Hogan was the bigger "star" Flair is/was the better wrestler.  There is a difference.  I never viewed wrestling from the "he's in the main event so he's the man" because very often there were far better wrestlers in undercard matches because of the politics of the sport, something Hogan was VERY good at.  Flair was at times, but not like Hogan.

To me the proof is that has Hogan EVER had a 5 star match?  Flair has too many to count, all over the world.  IMO, same with promos.  Flair has so much classic stuff that is still entertaining to listen to today.  Hogans old promos are pathetic and like I mentioned in an earlier post, directed towards pre-teens and morons. 

It's all personal choice of course....and I prefer classics and you prefer whatever sells the most albums, it's that simple.

Has Hogan had a 5-star match? Hmmmm....WrestleMania 6 (vs. Ultimate Warrior), WrestleMania 18 (vs. The Rock); WrestleMania 3 (vs Andre the Giant).

Hogan's promos were WILD. Listening to Flair, yap about women and song over and over, while hiding behind the Horsemen grew so tired it was ridiculous. No moment Flair had in his career can touch "The Slam Heard 'Round The World".

Hogan put an entire industry on his back, in the TWO BIGGEST PROMOTIONS in the business. He trumped Flair, not only on his turf but on FLAIR'S turf. Guys, against whom Flair would struggle and slog for nearly an hour (i.e. Terry Funk, Harley Race), Hogan would slap silly in a matter of minutes.

Flair, claiming he was the best in the world with a 300-lb juggernaut, making mincemeat out of folks he beat by the skin of his teeth, simply didn't fly. Even FLAIR HIMSELF (until he switched to Austin in 2008) had to bow down and admit that Hogan was THE MAN in the business.
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« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2012, 01:37:29 PM »

Has Hogan had a 5-star match? Hmmmm....WrestleMania 6 (vs. Ultimate Warrior), WrestleMania 18 (vs. The Rock); WrestleMania 3 (vs Andre the Giant).

Hogan's promos were WILD. Listening to Flair, yap about women and song over and over, while hiding behind the Horsemen grew so tired it was ridiculous. No moment Flair had in his career can touch "The Slam Heard 'Round The World".

Hogan put an entire industry on his back, in the TWO BIGGEST PROMOTIONS in the business. He trumped Flair, not only on his turf but on FLAIR'S turf. Guys, against whom Flair would struggle and slog for nearly an hour (i.e. Terry Funk, Harley Race), Hogan would slap silly in a matter of minutes.

Flair, claiming he was the best in the world with a 300-lb juggernaut, making mincemeat out of folks he beat by the skin of his teeth, simply didn't fly. Even FLAIR HIMSELF (until he switched to Austin in 2008) had to bow down and admit that Hogan was THE MAN in the business.


Ummmm,  you do realize it's all predetermined, right?    And NONE of those matches are even close to 5 star matches by Hogan.  You just don't get it.  Flair carried those guy in matches for the good of the product.  I'm beginning to think you are still a mark, but who knows.
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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2012, 02:09:52 PM »

Ummmm,  you do realize it's all predetermined, right?    And NONE of those matches are even close to 5 star matches by Hogan.  You just don't get it.  Flair carried those guy in matches for the good of the product.  I'm beginning to think you are still a mark, but who knows.

I have never heard of a Hogan match being mentioned as a two star, never mind a five.  Huge crowds?  Sure.  But never anything close to a great match.

I guess saying which one cut the better promo is all opinion, but I think Flair would win in a huge margin if you had a poll?  He is pretty much considered without peer on the mic.  I know I would rather hear about Space Mountain than sitting backstage eating fruit and being cool, brother, but that is just me.

As Stoppa said, just because something sells the most albums does not make it the best.

The end of the argument is this:  Flair has almost universal praise from his peers as being the very best.  That says plenty for me.
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« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »

Just my .02  ...

This isn't "scientific" by any stretch of the imagination, but almost all conversations I have about wrestling come down to someone using one of Flair's catchphrases far more than any of Hulk's. 

Although personally, I like to go Baron von Raschke and say in a fake German accent, "Dat is all da people need to know!!"
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2012, 04:17:50 PM »

One observation I've made is that, while Hogan has reinvented his character - to some degree - several times over the years, the Ric Flair character has pretty much stayed unchanged. We've seen multiple heel & face turns, but Ric's persona was unaltered. There aren't too many guys who've done the same act with essentially linear success for as long as Ric did. That includes Taker, Rock, Austin, Hulk, etc.

That is quite remarkable, and a true testament to the performer.


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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2012, 07:48:05 PM »

One observation I've made is that, while Hogan has reinvented his character - to some degree - several times over the years, the Ric Flair character has pretty much stayed unchanged. We've seen multiple heel & face turns, but Ric's persona was unaltered. There aren't too many guys who've done the same act with essentially linear success for as long as Ric did. That includes Taker, Rock, Austin, Hulk, etc.

That is quite remarkable, and a true testament to the performer.




I was thinking about something similar today.  Eye of the Tiger came on the radio and it reminded me that Hogan has had a number of theme songs, whereas Flair has always only had "2001"   

and you are right.  His "character" is simply him and has been ever since he first came to the Mid-Atlantic in the 70's. 

And as Ole Big said, Flair is widely recognized by his peers as being "the man" so I will trust the opinions of those who know.
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 11:05:20 AM »

I was thinking about something similar today.  Eye of the Tiger came on the radio and it reminded me that Hogan has had a number of theme songs, whereas Flair has always only had "2001"   

and you are right.  His "character" is simply him and has been ever since he first came to the Mid-Atlantic in the 70's. 

And as Ole Big said, Flair is widely recognized by his peers as being "the man" so I will trust the opinions of those who know.

I want to know what radio station you are listening to?
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« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2012, 02:25:24 PM »

I want to know what radio station you are listening to?

It sure wasn't WRFR or WLTM, stud.
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« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2012, 09:52:19 PM »

It sure wasn't WRFR or WLTM, stud.

What?  Pat Kelly isn't your boy anymore?
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »

What?  Pat Kelly isn't your boy anymore?

Greatest senior league coach in Community Bldg history.
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2012, 11:15:41 AM »

Wasn't there someone else to be the chosen one before Hogan? Same time frame
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2012, 12:15:35 PM »

Wasn't there someone else to be the chosen one before Hogan? Same time frame



Sometime around '86/'87, Vince tried out a bodybuilder/strongman from Manitoba named Tom Magee.
Physically, Tom looked outstanding, but although Stu Hart trained him for a few months, you'd have never known it.
He wasn't very good in the ring.

The old man was said to have creamed his pants (figuratively...I think) at the sight of Magee, and a couple of guys have gone on record saying that Hogan was more than a little nervous over the prospect of his potential/likely "replacement."
They fed him some skilled jobbers, including Bret, but Magee just never worked out.
I mean, he was athletic and worked very hard, but maybe he just didn't have any aptitude for the ring.
Not everyone does.


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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2012, 12:17:05 PM »

I was thinking about something similar today.  Eye of the Tiger came on the radio and it reminded me that Hogan has had a number of theme songs, whereas Flair has always only had "2001"   

and you are right.  His "character" is simply him and has been ever since he first came to the Mid-Atlantic in the 70's. 

And as Ole Big said, Flair is widely recognized by his peers as being "the man" so I will trust the opinions of those who know.

Actually, Flair didn't use the 2001 theme, during his 91-93 run in WWE.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSaWZeTLX7c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSaWZeTLX7c</a>
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2012, 12:40:42 PM »

I have never heard of a Hogan match being mentioned as a two star, never mind a five.  Huge crowds?  Sure.  But never anything close to a great match.

I guess saying which one cut the better promo is all opinion, but I think Flair would win in a huge margin if you had a poll?  He is pretty much considered without peer on the mic.  I know I would rather hear about Space Mountain than sitting backstage eating fruit and being cool, brother, but that is just me.

As Stoppa said, just because something sells the most albums does not make it the best.

The end of the argument is this:  Flair has almost universal praise from his peers as being the very best.  That says plenty for me.

I've mentioned three of those matches. The crowds were not only huge, they were LOUD. The Hogan-Rock match, the fans went nuts. They BOOED the Rock and cheered for Hogan, despite the WWF breaking its neck trying to make Hogan a heel. Hogan beat Rock with his weightlifting belt, had Hall and Nash hit the Razor's Edge and Jacknife powerbombs (respectively) on Rock, whacked Rock in the head with a hammer, leg-dropped him, spray-painted him, and to top it all off nearly SMASHED Rock in the ambulance with a tractor-trailer.......YET THE FANS STILL CHEERED FOR HOGAN.

Chants of "Rocky Sucks", which the Rock hadn't heard in YEARS, were booming throughout the Sky Dome. The fans were engaged throughout the bout. Of course, the ultimate "mark-out" moment was Hogan kicking out of the Rock Bottom and "hulking up". That sealed it!!! It also marked the end of the NWO, as there was no way Hogan was staying a heel.

As far as the mic goes, I don't pay to hear people yap; I pay to see people scrap.
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2012, 01:18:53 PM »

All of that is great I guess.  But absolutely none of it makes your point about a five star match OR respect from his peers.  Has there ever been a five star with interference?

It might have marked the end of the nWo.  Unfortunately, it was probably the last time Hogan got a pop.  Three weeks later, he could not get a peep from the crowd one way or the other.  It is easy to get heat when you show up once per year.  The ability to sustain it is what matters.

Someone said earlier that Hogan made the nWo.  I attended many Nitros back then, and frequented many boards, so I feel like I was pretty up with the smarks and marks.  I don't recall a single person saying they came to see Hogan.  Everyone marked for Hall and Nash, but either hated Hogan being around, or didn't care one way or the other.

Yes, Bash At The Beach caused quite a stir, and Hogan still forced himself to the front, but the nWo was still Hall and Nash.
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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2012, 01:29:30 PM »

Actually, Flair didn't use the 2001 theme, during his 91-93 run in WWE.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSaWZeTLX7c" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSaWZeTLX7c</a>

Thats on VKM, not Flair.
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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2012, 01:34:11 PM »



As far as the mic goes, I don't pay to hear people yap; I pay to see people scrap.

Then why all the love for Hogan who was AT BEST an average in-ring worker?  I'll venture to say that you were about 9-12 yrs old when Hogan was in his heyday in the 80's.
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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2012, 07:02:20 PM »

All of that is great I guess.  But absolutely none of it makes your point about a five star match OR respect from his peers.  Has there ever been a five star with interference?

It might have marked the end of the nWo.  Unfortunately, it was probably the last time Hogan got a pop.  Three weeks later, he could not get a peep from the crowd one way or the other.  It is easy to get heat when you show up once per year.  The ability to sustain it is what matters.

Someone said earlier that Hogan made the nWo.  I attended many Nitros back then, and frequented many boards, so I feel like I was pretty up with the smarks and marks.  I don't recall a single person saying they came to see Hogan.  Everyone marked for Hall and Nash, but either hated Hogan being around, or didn't care one way or the other.

Yes, Bash At The Beach caused quite a stir, and Hogan still forced himself to the front, but the nWo was still Hall and Nash.

Didn't Hogan get a pop when he won the Undisputed World title from Triple H?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1B4yCQHRo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC1B4yCQHRo</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwh4eBWnB0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwh4eBWnB0</a>

Not to mention the night after WrestleMania 18 in Montreal.....

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxPdQW_Scz4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxPdQW_Scz4</a>

And, there's Rock-Hogan II

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TIRDSWfF4I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TIRDSWfF4I</a>
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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2012, 07:09:34 PM »

Thats on VKM, not Flair.


Reminds me of what they did with Hennig’s “Mr. Perfect” ring music, which was basically a kind of “re-mix” of the theme from Exodus. I seem to remember WWF using the actual Exodus soundtrack for a couple of Curt’s earlier Fed matches, which is a big no-no in terms of copyright licensing.

With the Mr. P theme, they included bits of the original, omitted some parts, and altered others - all just enough that they could legally use it.

Flair’s 1991 WWF music undoubtedly has its roots in the 2001 score; especially that one particularly identifiable chord that really stands out. The original has been around for so long, that it may be public domain, meaning anyone can use it - which I suspect is the case since he’s used it for so many years in multiple companies.
With WWF,  I would easily believe that Vince had his music guys change it simply for the sake of being different, which the old man has always had a strong tendency of doing.

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« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2012, 09:57:52 PM »


All of that is great I guess.  But absolutely none of it makes your point about a five star match OR respect from his peers.  Has there ever been a five star with interference?

That wasn't the match. That was the aftermath of the promo in which Rock challenged Hogan to go toe-to-toe at WrestleMania.

The match itself was GREAT, no interference!!


It might have marked the end of the nWo.  Unfortunately, it was probably the last time Hogan got a pop.  Three weeks later, he could not get a peep from the crowd one way or the other.  It is easy to get heat when you show up once per year.  The ability to sustain it is what matters.

Again, see the post-WrestleMania Raw in Montreal, the match where Hogan wins the undisputed title, and the rematch with Rock in 2003.


Someone said earlier that Hogan made the nWo.  I attended many Nitros back then, and frequented many boards, so I feel like I was pretty up with the smarks and marks.  I don't recall a single person saying they came to see Hogan.  Everyone marked for Hall and Nash, but either hated Hogan being around, or didn't care one way or the other.

Yes, Bash At The Beach caused quite a stir, and Hogan still forced himself to the front, but the nWo was still Hall and Nash.

I disagree. No Hogan, no NWO!! The reason the gimmick took off was because the unthinkable (at that time, at least) happened. The ultimate babyface of wrestling (not just of WCW or WWF) just went rogue. Again, the concept was that two WWF guys were invading WCW. They were on the hunt for the "Huckster" and the "Nacho Man". They wanted to officially start the war with "Billionaire Ted". But usually when there are "Outsiders", there's also an insider. Who better to be that insider than the ULTIMATE ex-WWF guy, the "Huckster", if you will, Hulk Hogan.

People could buy Hall and Nash being heels; they were initially heels in the WWF as Razor Ramon and Diesel, respectively. But, Hogan....NO WAY!!! The ultimate hero became the supreme traitor. That took a HUGE amount of fans from Raw to Nitro. That wouldn't have happened had Sting been the third man.
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