I've benzo clean for 4 days - after 9 years of usage

[IrishMuscle84]

You are VERY wrong, not kidding sir..

Ive heard that ECT or Electric Shock Therapy works EXTREMELY well for some people.

[Necrosis]

You are VERY wrong, not kidding sir..

ECT is great, the newer technologies even more so. The stigma it has is ridiculous. However, don't negate the sometimes severe side effects wrt personality and retrograde amnesia which can be persistent. In no way should it be the first choice, but in intractable cases it is often underutilized.

[Primemuscle]

professional primary physician.

im not a psychiatrist but i have an interest in it. I focus on it when i study keep up to date with medicine.

my comment wasnt directed at anyone really, i just see some bad advice to people who are irrational due to anxiety perhaps.

benzos for anxiety are bad, some cases sure, but in terms of treatment algorithms its the last option as its well known that tolerance builds,addiction ensues and anxiety usually gets worse especially with quick acting tranqs

So do you agree that without treating the underlying problem, perhaps with therapy, drugs are not the total answer to one's problems? I had a friend who suffered from agoraphobia among other illnesses. She responded best to a combination of drugs and therapy. Drugs alone did not help her at all.

[IrishMuscle84]

Saying that mental illness is a brain disorder and can be fixed by something as simple as taking a pill is like saying that a software problem in your computer is a problem with your hard drive and you'll fix it by taking out the poor drive and fiddling with its electronics

in any case, an astonishing simplistic and ignorant view, especially coming from someone who claims he's a doctor.

Medications dont fully " cure " mental illness'. They simply LESSEN/DECREASE The Intensity/Severity of symptoms, stabilizes mood, etc........

[Necrosis]

So do you agree that without treating the underlying problem, perhaps with therapy, drugs are not the total answer to one's problems? I had a friend who suffered from agoraphobia among other illnesses. She responded best to a combination of drugs and therapy. Drugs alone did not help her at all.

yes 100% agree drugs can cure the symptoms and allow people to live normally but without therapy and behavioural changes it will only last as long as one takes the drug, once removed you will revert.

If you have agoraphobia and dont actively look to emerse yourself in situations then you wont be able to off drugs. Drugs can allow someone to be at ease with exposure and then come to terms with the situation, creating positive reinforcement.

[IrishMuscle84]

So do you agree that without treating the underlying problem, perhaps with therapy, drugs are not the total answer to one's problems? I had a friend who suffered from agoraphobia among other illnesses. She responded best to a combination of drugs and therapy. Drugs alone did not help her at all.

The combinations of MEDICATION AND EXPOSURE THERAPY ( IF NEEDED) With the use of Cognitive Behavorial therapy is Best ESPECIALLY if someone has VERY SEVERE Symptoms.

[Raymondo]

it is a brain disorder, why are you guys seperating the brain and mind? the psychological symptoms are a product of a sick brain. Thinking patterns (cbt,dialectical etc) change these thinking patterns which appears to change the chemical processes of the brain, however, its truly vice versa because you cannot think before the chemical process begins.

the mind is the brain, the deranged mind (anxious,depressed,psychotic) is a fucked up brain. Of course there are co-morbid issues and extraneous versus intrinsic issues, but more often then not disorders of the brain are chronic, lifelong issues that are due to poor mental hygiene along with propensity to have deranged chemical neurotransmission.

You're referring to the biological model of psychiatry, long promoted from pharmaceutical companies, for which the evidence is spurious... just because a medication increases or decreases serotonin levels does not mean that increased or decreased serotonin levels cause depression.

I believe this is called "correlation does not imply causation". You should already know of this, if you're a physician, as you claim.
Nevertheless a whole industry was built around these medications promoting them as "curing" some sort of chemical imbalance... total HORSESHIT
It sounded easy enough for any moron to understand though (especially doctors), so the concept became a massive success.

would you claim the same for asthma? that taking a pill cant fix the symptoms of asthma? its the same exact thing, its the psychological aspect that is causing people to make this weird duality which simply does not exist.

The human brain is not the same as human lungs. We understand how lungs work which is why medication for asthma will almost always work, but medication for what you called a "brain disorder" is NEVER guaranteed to work, which is why people are switched from medication to medication, or not even switched really, they just keep adding one on top of the other, which causes a condition called "polypharmacy".

Do you know how many people there are out there taking more than two psychiatric meds?

[arce1988]

  I would rather take prozac, zoloft, etc.,

[dr.chimps]

Booze.

[Raymondo]

Medications dont fully " cure " mental illness'. They simply LESSEN/DECREASE The Intensity/Severity of symptoms, stabilizes mood, etc........

Exactly... at best they mask the condition. When you're off them, your troubles are likely to start all over again...

unless you spent your time working on your issues with a therapist, persisting and persevering... hard work.

[IrishMuscle84]

In my opinion.... MENTAL ILLNESS causes EXTREMELY EXCESSIVE/OVERLY ACTIVE BRAIN ACTIVITY that causes chemical imbalances in the brain.

[arce1988]

  Great thread...

[Necrosis]

You're referring to the biological model of psychiatry, long promoted from pharmaceutical companies for which the evidence is spurious... just because a medication increases or decreases serotonin levels does not mean that increased or decreased serotonin levels causes depression.

I believe this is called "correlation does not imply causation". You should already know of this, if you're a physician, as you claim.
Nevertheless a whole industry was built around these medications promoting them as "curing" some sort of chemical imbalance... total HORSESHIT

the biological model? what new model better explains the diverse findings, are you attacking monoamine theory or are you just making up stuff? do we use the immaterial model now?

causation is a form of correlation so that statment means little to me, psychiatry was built on reverse engineering and its genius, they had no means of testing objective measures as results are subjective  (mood etc). However, thats not true its a fact that organic brain diseases account for the major etiology of almost all chornic illnesses in psychiatry.

ADHD and the PET/MRI/FMRI studies show over and over again polymorphisms in DAT transporters, lower frontal lobe d2 receptor binding affinity etc. schizophrenia shit im not going into it but your wrong. have you ever seen the brain of a deceased schizo? had it in your hand the difference is night and day, the sulci and gyri are all fucked up, it looks like a prolapsed vagina.

also the whole correlation causation thing is stupid, for example say you never knew what dehydration was and gave someone water and they felt better, could you not infer with corroborating evidence that this is true? you act as if receptor actions and patterns haven't been mapped. i know exactly how to reduce your anxiety and while you say its correlational, id ask for another mechanism, until one is provided my position is sound and rests on the evidence.

The human brain is not the same as human lungs. We understand how lungs work which is why medication for asthma will almost always work, but medication for what you called a "brain disorder" is NEVER guaranteed to work, which is why people are switched from medication to medication, or not even switched really, they just keep adding one on top of the other, which causes a condition called "polypharmacy".

Do you know how many people there are out there taking more than two psychiatric meds?

the lungs aren't as complex as the brain, obviously since the brain controls the lungs. but what you outlined is not true, lots of asthma medications do not work or only do in a certain population. By virtue of the brain being more complex we are having a harder time creating medications that are specific. Also, because the brain can be seen as multiple organs (the diencephalon versus the telencephalon for example) if a drug isn't precise you can cause all kinds of other symptoms that make the anxiety worse thus requiring polypharmacy as the understanding while greater then the lungs, is more difficult to understand simply because there is more to know.

also, what medication are you talking about? benzos will reduce anxiety in the vast majority, even more so then a beta agonist reduces bronchospasm. I gaurentee that barbituates will eliminate anxiety everytime if taken in the right dose.

im obviously being a dick, i get your point but its not that simple.

[Necrosis]

im absolutely wiped right now, my grammar is horrendous.

[arce1988]

  still genius...

[Necrosis]

  still genius...

now if i could just learn to spell and form basic sentences i would be well off..................

[Raymondo]

causation is a form of correlation so that statment means little to me, psychiatry was built on reverse engineering and its genius, they had no means of testing objective measures as results are subjective  (mood etc). However, thats not true its a fact that organic brain diseases account for the major etiology of almost all chornic illnesses in psychiatry.

Psychiatry is far from being a science, the fact that it was built as you say "on reverse engineering" (although a crass analogy) is the ultimate proof it. If you ever did reverse engineering on anything you'd know that it doesn't really help understand the program, it's grinding work that is 90% perspiration, 10% inspiration as Thomas Eddison said, which means that most of the time you're fumbling in the dark and your solutions are bound to be inferior to a solution produced from a sound theoretical basis. I'm glad that at least you don't dispute that the biological model of psychiatry is inherently flawed. You're right in what you say: there is no better model currently. But soon enough there will be one, and then what we currently have will look as crass and primitive as the lobotomisation of the 1940s looks to us today.

ADHD and the PET/MRI/FMRI studies show over and over again polymorphisms in DAT transporters, lower frontal lobe d2 receptor binding affinity etc. schizophrenia shit im not going into it but your wrong. have you ever seen the brain of a deceased schizo? had it in your hand the difference is night and day, the sulci and gyri are all fucked up, it looks like a prolapsed vagina.

You're choosing extreme examples, i.e. schizophrenia, whereas before you asserted that ALL mental illnesses are brain diseases, now you pick schizophrenia, something that undoubtedly has organic origins.

Let me ask you something more specific? Are panic attacks also solely of organic origin? If so, which part of the brain is it that is malfunctioning, and can you quote any peer-reviewed studies of a reputed journal that assert so?

the lungs aren't as complex as the brain, obviously since the brain controls the lungs. but what you outlined is not true, lots of asthma medications do not work or only do in a certain population. By virtue of the brain being more complex we are having a harder time creating medications that are specific. Also, because the brain can be seen as multiple organs (the diencephalon versus the telencephalon for example) if a drug isn't precise you can cause all kinds of other symptoms that make the anxiety worse thus requiring polypharmacy as the understanding while greater then the lungs, is more difficult to understand simply because there is more to know.

See... you're coming along to my words. Polypharmacy- side effects upon side effects... causing one to wonder- weren't they better off living with their mental condition in the first place?

also, what medication are you talking about? benzos will reduce anxiety in the vast majority, even more so then a beta agonist reduces bronchospasm. I gaurentee that barbituates will eliminate anxiety everytime if taken in the right dose.

I'm talking about SSRIs, obviously, I used the serotonin paradigm. SSRIS and SNRIS are never guaranteed to work. Wes said that he tried Effexor, one of the most POTENT drugs in existence and it did fuck all for him, what does that tell you? It's the same with antipsychotics and in fact with the MAJORITY of psychiatric drugs.

Again, don't pick only those examples that validate your arguments. You totally miss the big picture. I detect a sense of bias in you, which is a dangerous thing in a doctor.

Did you know that for the last few years (ever since the FDA published a literature review of SSRIs showing that they are little better than placebos, in 2007) the pharmaceutical industry has been quietly but effectively pushing for anti-psychotics to be prescribed in the place of anti-depressants?

Have you ever heard of Seroquel and for what it's being prescribed nowadays?

[Necrosis]

Psychiatry is far from being a science, the fact that it was built as you say "on reverse engineering" (although a crass analogy) is the ultimate proof it. If you ever did reverse engineering on anything you'd know that it doesn't really help understand the program, it's grinding work that is 90% perspiration, 10% inspiration as Thomas Eddison said, which means that most of the time you're fumbling in the dark and your solutions are bound to be inferior to a solution produced from a sound theoretical basis. I'm glad that at least you don't dispute that the biological model of psychiatry is inherently flawed. You're right in what you say: there is no better model currently. But soon enough there will be one, and then what we currently have will look as crass and primitive as the lobotomisation of the 1940s looks to us today.

You're choosing extreme examples, i.e. schizophrenia, whereas before you asserted that ALL mental illnesses are brain diseases, now you pick schizophrenia, something that undoubtedly has organic origins.

Let me ask you something more specific? Are panic attacks also solely of organic origin? If so, which part of the brain is it that is malfunctioning, and can you quote any peer-reviewed studies of a reputed journal that assert so?


See... you're coming along to my words. Polypharmacy- side effects upon side effects... causing one to wonder- weren't they better off living with their mental condition in the first place?

I'm talking about SSRIs, obviously, I used the serotonin paradigm.

Did you know that for the last few years (ever since the FDA published a literature review of SSRIs showing that they are little better than placebos, in 2007) the pharmaceutical industry has been quietly but effectively pushing for anti-psychotics to be prescribed in the place of anti-depressants?

Have you ever heard of Seroquel and for what it's being prescribed nowadays?

ya ive heard of everything you are saying they are common arguments brought against a great scope of medicine. What is unscientific about reverse engineering again? it was the catalyst for discovering what the different monoamines do. Hey this drug helps anxiety, how does it do that, well according to this in vitro study they bind (benzos) to the bzd receptors on the Gaba complex increasing cl- influx hyperpolarizing the cells making the threshold for action potentials difficult to elicit. Bam reverse engineering gives us insight into what may be going on, more objective measures have taken its place but pretty much all medicine was done like this. Something works, why does it work, how does it work and so forth, thats science at its core, observation/testing repeat, thats it.

well i was referring to chronic illness and i mentioned the difference between extrinsic versus organic issues so im justified logically in my example.

Panic attacks are physiological, how couldnt they be ALL THAT EXISTS IS PHYSIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS. the mind is a process not a thing, it is like migration in geese, geese are said to migrate yet migration isn't tangible, has no value and is a product of physical things (ie birds flying in a direction) the mind is the same thing. It is simply the processes of neuronal firing in particular areas nothing more.

polypharmacy is a product of poor drug usage and effect size, it exists in all branches of medicine. Lets stay with asthma or atopy. These people take corticosteriods (inhaled usually) and use beta agonists (long or short) to prevent attacks or to halt an attack. Thats two drugs already, however this sometimes does not control the inflammation and a leukotriene inhibitor like monteleukast is added. Then these people often suffer from allergies  and dermatological things like allergic dermatitis, this can lead to h1 antagonists, topical steriods etc..

this happens because our drugs aren't good enough yet, doctors are incompetant and patients wont do anything to help themselves. Its a perfect analogy to mental health, you say drugs dont cure anything in psychiatry without the person going to therapy, exercising etc the same is true for asthma and allergy sufferers. Medications dont cure anything then are palliative by nature.


by the way the study was of unpublished studies mixed with published, look at the methodology and the fact that some trials were fucked up its no wonder they show little effect. Im not a fan of them either but they are usually safe (serotonin syndrome is the only really serious side, well suicide too lol) and have ample evidence to show they work.

[IrishMuscle84]

If anti-physcotics are being recommended instead of SSRIs ( anti-depressants) because probably have shown too be effective in treating EXTREME DEPRESSION ( MAJOR DEPRESSION) I have MAJOR DEPRESSION and have been on an anti-physcotic for only 2 months, and depression has gotten alot better. If youve seen that commerical with ABILIFY which is an anti-physcotic, saying that it can be added to an SSRI ( antidepressant) med simply because combining the two are shown to be EFFECTIVE in Dramatically Decreasing the severity of the depression.

[Raymondo]

ADHD and the PET/MRI/FMRI studies show over and over again polymorphisms in DAT transporters, lower frontal lobe d2 receptor binding affinity etc. schizophrenia shit im not going into it but your wrong. have you ever seen the brain of a deceased schizo? had it in your hand the difference is night and day, the sulci and gyri are all fucked up, it looks like a prolapsed vagina.

This doesn't prove anything

There exists a study from a couple of years ago where they looked at MRIs of 2000 (!!) individuals with bipolar disorder?

Do you know how many common features they found in their brains?

Nowhere near enough to reach any conclusions...

Hope this helps.

[Necrosis]

If anti-physcotics are being recommended instead of SSRIs ( anti-depressants) because probably have shown too be effective in treating EXTREME DEPRESSION ( MAJOR DEPRESSION) I have MAJOR DEPRESSION and have been on an anti-physcotic for only 2 months, and depression has gotten alot better. If youve seen that commerical with ABILIFY which is an anti-physcotic, saying that it can be added to an SSRI ( antidepressant) med simply because combining the two are shown to be EFFECTIVE in Dramatically Decreasing the severity of the depression.

yes im unaware of any anti-psychotic being used for depression as a first line treatment if so the doctor should be fired as permenant movement disorders can occur like tardive dyskinesia

when you add apiprazole (abilify) to an sri it changes the pharmacology greatly, i assume you are on a low dose also, which actually shows some properties of a stimulant.

[Necrosis]

This doesn't prove anything

There exists a study from a couple of years ago where they looked at MRIs of 2000 (!!) individuals with bipolar disorder?

Do you know how many common features they found in their brains?

Nowhere near enough to reach any conclusions...

Hope this helps.

yes it does, so the fact that one study almost 11 years ago was unable to form a cogent conclusion means that there isn't or cant be an understanding.

Also, adhd differs so greatly from bipolar that im not sure what point your making. You are suggesting we dont know enough yet you keep claiming that we can't know these things, that we should give up i guess?

i could flood this thread with studies if you like.

chronic illness with an organic etiology

so things like
adhd
bipolar1 and2
GAD


not things like depression which does relapse and remit but can be acute in nature and is more of a state then baseline. Although hippocampal neuronal apoptosis has been observed over and over.

[Necrosis]

This doesn't prove anything

There exists a study from a couple of years ago where they looked at MRIs of 2000 (!!) individuals with bipolar disorder?

Do you know how many common features they found in their brains?

Nowhere near enough to reach any conclusions...

Hope this helps.

It did help by the way,your post that is. I realize im wasting my time arguing with you as your not interested in reaching a conclusion just reiterating your point.

[Natural Man]

people suffer of traumas caused by caregivers who betrayed their trust when they were very fragile, young. They dont understand most of the time why people who were suposed to love them after giving birth to them, betrayed em, harmed them psychologycally, physically, sexually. They spend the rest of their life wondering why they ve been hurt when they were innocent, and had no power to stop their aggressors. Most of the time they reproduce what happend to them subconsciously which worsens even more their suffering. Nobody cares, nobody is going to take the time to try to understand what s going on, especially nowadays in our societies where families are blown up from the inside because God, Fathers, have been abandonned, ans as a result the family and society itself is collapsing. When you cant even trust your own parents, grandparents, bortherhood, when you ve been hurt by them, you cant trust others outside of the family later. It's a vicious circle, and this is the origin of "mental illnesses". A lack of love, a lack of understanding, being powerless, not listened to by anyone, because we abandonned God and significant relationships with first our family members, and then with others in general. All these consequences are cumulative.

People who are on drugs need drugs because they cant find someone to listen to them, because they re hopeless, broken inside, and they re constantly meeting people who are broken inside and who keep hurting each others again and again. This is our societies nowadays.

This is the result of abandonning God. It is still possible to find God, when all other worthless humans only care about themselves and when your own caregivers attempted to destroy you reproducing most of the time what their own parents did to them. It's a chain reaction just like everything else. But you have to understand the real roots, origins of the problems, and not focus on their consequences, or you ll never stop the problem at its origin. It's the origin that has to be fought, and the origin of all human sufferings is the abandonning of God.

People attempt to find a meaning to their existences in sex, money, material goods, bad addictions -do not confuse good addictions with bad addictions as everything is addiction in itself- because they abandonned God and msotly reproducing what their own parents were doing. Parents who believe in God teach their sons and aughter sto believe in God. Atheists think they are God themselves, or that their addictions are their gods. They need more and more bad addictions, more and more drugs, because they abandonned God, and it doesnt even work, they re even more desperate. Because they re not looking where they should be looking.

On a side note, science without faith is not science. It is power driven destruction as it has been proven several times in human history. Real science, real revelations from God to some chosen humans is suposed to be used positively for the benefit of all of God's creatures.

[arce1988]

  stick to the science here and leave the jesus stuff out...