Stephen Hawkins: Theists Are Cowards Who Are Afraid Of The Dark.

[dr.chimps]

pWnd.
Bombz is a good kid IMHO.
Once he gets older and accumulates life experience he'll probably be a pretty cool guy, he's already laid back and lets shit slide, he's driven and he likes to learn, even if he likes to try to debate and teach before he's actually experienced what he's debating. 
He'll learn as he gets older and more experienced how much different things are in reality, compared to how they appear to him now.

I agree. He's obviously ticking over. Interested in stuff - that's obvious, from his posts. And, interest is so, so important to intellectual pursuits...but he has no discipline. And no intellectual rigor. That's not to say that university is for everybody - it's not! - but I do feel that he would benefit from the structure of getting an under-graduate degree. If, after that, his eclat rings farther than than the local church's purview, it will be manifest.    

[tbombz]

You can't really ask what happened before the big bang because time itself resulted from the big bang. Therefore, any cause would have to exist outside the scope of space-time.

thats just sticking your head in the sand via semantics. who says before the big bang there wasnt a previous big bang? who says outside the boundaries of our universe some odd gazilliuon trillion miles aaway there isnt a whole other universe ? maybe hundreds thousands billions of other universes, big bangs happening all the time , going back eternally?

So science can never find the answers but you can?? This is in fact what you're saying.

no, im saying answers are unreachable. period. and this is fact.

I doubt any 'schooling' is going to help him considerably. Sure it won't hurt to give it a shot but his issues stem mostly from a very bad attitude.

bad attitude 

[tbombz]

let socrates infiltrate your mind...

And how is not this the most reprehensible ignorance, to think that one knows what one does not know? But I, O Athenians! in this, perhaps, differ from most men; and if I should say that I am in any thing wiser than another, it would be in this, that not having a competent knowledge of the things in Hades, I also think that I have not such knowledge.

When I left him, I reasoned thus with myself: I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know.

I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess wisdom which I find wanting in others: but the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise; and in this oracle he means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing... as if he said, He, O men, is the wisest, who like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing. And so I go on my way, obedient to the god, and make inquisition into anyone, whether citizen or stranger, who appears to be wise; and if he is not wise, then in vindication of the oracle I show him that he is not wise; and this occupation quite absorbs me, and I have no time to give either to any public matter of interest or to any concern of my own, but I am in utter poverty by reason of my devotion to the god.


...if, I say now, when, as I conceive and imagine, God orders me to fulfill the philosopher's mission of searching into myself and other men, I were to desert my post through fear of death, or any other fear; that would indeed be strange, and I might justly be arraigned in court for denying the existence of the gods... then I would be fancying that I was wise when I was not wise. For this fear of death is indeed the pretense of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being the appearance of knowing the unknown; since no one knows whether death, which they in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good. ...this is the point in which, as I think, I am superior to men in general, and in which I might perhaps fancy myself wiser than other men — that whereas I know but little of the world below, I do not suppose that I know: but I do know that injustice and disobedience to a better, whether God or man, is evil and dishonorable, and I will never fear or avoid a possible good rather than a certain evil.

[lovemonkey]

no, im saying answers are unreachable. period. and this is fact.

roflmao, as if you know the slightest thing about science and it's boundaries. It's probably true that some things might be forever beyond the scope of science but looking back at the history of science; of what we knew back then and what know now, we are today absolutely not in a position to say "this is where science ends". Many 'educated' people have done so in the past only to look foolish later. You're among the last people on earth to be consulted on matters of science. Don't use words such as "indisputable", "fact" and "logic" when you over and over again display your massive ignorance on all kinds of subjects.

[Shockwave]

I agree. He's obviously ticking over. Interested in stuff - that's obvious, from his posts. And, interest is so, so important to intellectual pursuits...but he has no discipline. And no intellectual rigor. That's not to say that university is for everybody - it's not! - but I do feel that he would benefit from the structure of getting an under-graduate degree. If, after that, his eclat rings farther than than the local church's purview, it will be manifest.    

Agree - and he will probably arrive at the fact that he would benefit from discipline and structure.
I would imagine almost everyone would get tired (i hope) of just floating from subject to subject without ever really accomplishing anything more than a rudimentary understanding of whatever concept it is theyre currently interested in.
And I bet when he has some real solid life experience under his belt, his posts on subjects like these (ones in that he has knowledge, but not enough to seriously debate) will drop quite a bit.
And Ill also bet that when he DOES really dig in and find something that he's ready to devote himself to learning, that he'll make a great teacher as he seems very open with things he's learned and his experiences (although im sure that will change with time too, as it does for everyone), and seems to really have a desire to help people that want to learn.  

[tbombz]

roflmao, as if you know the slightest thing about science and it's boundaries. It's probably true that some things might be forever beyond the scope of science but looking back at the history of science; of what we knew back then and what know now, we are today absolutely not in a position to say "this is where science ends". You're among the last people on earth to be consulted on matters of science. Don't use words such as "indisputable", "fact" and "logic" when you over and over again display your massive ignorance on all kinds of subjects.

science only began to make forward progress after the centuries of metaphysical speculation were finally put to rest when empiricists proved that metaphysics were beyond the bounds of experience and thus one could only guess.

being that science is essentialy founded on the principle that knowledge is limited, your the one showing profound ignorancee on the subject by acting as if its a possibilty that one day science may be able to find some kind of answers as to meta physics (cause and origin of universe and its laws)

[dr.chimps]

Agree - and he will probably arrive at the fact that he would benefit from discipline and structure.
I would imagine almost everyone would get tired (i hope) of just floating from subject to subject without ever really accomplishing anything more than a rudimentary understanding of whatever concept it is theyre currently interested in.
And I bet when he has some real solid life experience under his belt, his posts on subjects like these (ones in that he has knowledge, but not enough to seriously debate) will drop quite a bit.
And Ill also bet that when he DOES really dig in and find something that he's ready to devote himself to learning, that he'll make a great teacher as he seems very open with things he's learned and his experiences (although im sure that will change with time too, as it does for everyone), and seems to really have a desire to help people that want to learn.  

Agree.

[tbombz]

shockwave and chimps, i beg you, go back and read through my posts in this thread. do so a million times if you have to. keep rereading untill you grasp what i have been saying. do not project the thoughts of theists into my words, take my words as they are written. i am not the one in this thread who claims to know something, i am the one pointing out when others believe they know something that they do not.  you may be older than i, but i assure you you can learn a great deal from me.

[dr.chimps]

shockwave and chimps, i beg you, go back and read through my posts in this thread. do so a million times if you have to. keep rereading untill you grasp what i have been saying. do not project the thoughts of theists into my words, take my words as they are written. i am not the one in this thread who claims to know something, i am the one pointing out when others believe they know something that they do not.  you may be older than i, but i assure you you can learn a great deal from me.

Perhaps. It's certainly not humility, or openness.   

[tbombz]

Perhaps. It's certainly not humility, or openness.  

and what am i not open about? where do i lack humility ? should i let others proclaim to know things they do not to appear humble? should i avoid suggesting logical truths in order to appear that i possess humility ? nay.. i show my humility by being honest, admitting i know not what i know not..

[lovemonkey]

science only began to make forward progress after the centuries of metaphysical speculation were finally put to rest when empiricists proved that metaphysics were beyond the bounds of experience and thus one could only guess.

being that science is essentialy founded on the principle that knowledge is limited, your the one showing profound ignorancee on the subject by acting as if its a possibilty that one day science may be able to find some kind of answers as to meta physics (cause and origin of universe and its laws)

If you went back in time to say the 17th century and told the smartest and most educated man/woman alive in that time period that the universe started with a massive inflation(details of which we know down to the billionth of a second), that there's an upper speed limit in the cosmos, that sickness comes from bacteria/virus and not demons, that we evolved from other animals, that atoms exist and their behavior relies on probabilities etc etc they would either declare you insane(probably possessed by demons) or burn you at the stake.

Are you seriously saying that you, tdongschlong, in the year of 2012 know the boundaries of science?

[dr.chimps]

and what am i not open about? where do i lack humility ? should i let others proclaim to know things they do not to appear humble? should i avoid suggesting logical truths in order to appear that i possess humility ? nay.. i show my humility by being honest, admitting i know not what i know not..

Time to resume your sessions, as well, bro.   

[tbombz]

If you went back in time to say the 17th century and told the smartest and most educated man/woman alive in that time period that the universe started with a massive inflation(details of which we know down to the billionth of a second), that there's an upper speed limit in the cosmos, that sickness comes from bacteria/virus and not demons, that we evolved from other animals, that atoms exist and their behavior relies on probabilities etc etc they would either declare you insane(probably possessed by demons) or burn you at the stake.

Are you seriously saying that you, tdongschlong, in the year 2012 know the boundaries of science?

first lets just make a few corrections:

you dont know that there is a "speed limit". recent observations of neutrinos should have been enough for you to drop that bit on your own.

theory of disease has been around since antiquity and so has the theory of evolution and atomic theory

leibnez predictyed quantum physics almost to the "t" back before there was any evidence of any such thing




secondly, yes, i do know that science is limited. can we explain the cause of quantum fluctuations? sure we migth be able to, in fact we probably will. at again and again and again and again as time moves forward and we increase our knowledge we will continue making discoveries. but at some point we will stop, or we will just keep going.. and neithe rof those scenarios provides an answer of any kind. it just leaves a big fat question mark. there will always be a question mark at the end of science. always. and this is where metaphysical speculation lies. science is incapable of speaking on it

[tbombz]

Time to resume your sessions, as well, bro.   

.. oh my..   chimpps..  i fear you might be beyond repair.. hopefully god does exist and he can eventually guide you..

[Shockwave]

shockwave and chimps, i beg you, go back and read through my posts in this thread. do so a million times if you have to. keep rereading untill you grasp what i have been saying. do not project the thoughts of theists into my words, take my words as they are written. i am not the one in this thread who claims to know something, i am the one pointing out when others believe they know something that they do not.  you may be older than i, but i assure you you can learn a great deal from me.

I wasnt talking about anything you had written in this thread bombz, I wasnt talking about your words, or your argument, lol.
I actually agreed with you in the sense that neither side can currently explain any of it with any certainty.

We were discussing your character, and actually were discussing how you have some very promising attributes, if you actually would re-read OUR words and not just make the same assumption about us that you think were making about you.  

Trust me - I know the whole "when he gets older" thing is tired and many times is just old people patting themselves on the back about their maturity- but in this case its not, it has more to do with the fact that you love to debate with people on subjects even when youre just getting in to them and have very limited information or real world experience on the issue (even though you may believe you have a very solid grasp on the subject, or feel youre well versed enough to debate with people who may have much more time/knowledge/experience in the subject.)

What I have found as I age (im only 26 btw), is that just when I thought I had a solid enough grasp on the subject to debate/argue it, just meant I had enough knowledge to make myself look like an ass to people that had REAL knowledge or experience. Also - that real world experience trumps knowledge more often than not. And that knowledge+experience trumps all. Anytime I tried to debate subjects with people that had more experience, even if they didnt have the same knowledge I had, I found later on when I was developing my own experiences in the subjects - that the person I was arguing with was right all along, even though he may not have had the actual knowledge. (thats when you really feel like an ass)

As I get older, the onlything I realize I know for sure, is that I dont know shit. The more I realize I dont know shit, the less I argue with people.
And the less I argue with people, the more I realize that those who have a need to argue or those that always have an opinion on the subject (as I used to do - hell, I still do lol, just check the poli board) - are usually those with the least experience.
(That wasnt a jab at you, thats just the things I have learned)

Just my .02, youre a good kid, youre certainly not stupid, you just have a lot to learn (as we all do). You have all the tools at your disposal, its only a matter of time until you decide to get down to business.

[Shockwave]

Added to the above - also when you attempt to apply logical conclusions to certain arguments when you do not have practical experience in the subject, it seems like a good idea (I used to do the same thing), the problem is many times when you get serious about a subject, that information you learn from your experiences actually flies in the face of the logical assumptions you make -
Hence why they say assuming things makes an ass out of you and me (ass-u-me)

[lovemonkey]

first lets just make a few corrections:

you dont know that there is a "speed limit". recent observations of neutrinos should have been enough for you to drop that bit on your own.

theory of disease has been around since antiquity and so has the theory of evolution and atomic theory

leibnez predictyed quantum physics almost to the "t" back before there was any evidence of any such thing




secondly, yes, i do know that science is limited. can we explain the cause of quantum fluctuations? sure we migth be able to, in fact we probably will. at again and again and again and again as time moves forward and we increase our knowledge we will continue making discoveries. but at some point we will stop, or we will just keep going.. and neithe rof those scenarios provides an answer of any kind. it just leaves a big fat question mark. there will always be a question mark at the end of science. always. and this is where metaphysical speculation lies. science is incapable of speaking on it

The neutrino experiment has not changed anything yet. It needs to be reproduced and verified before any conclusions can be drawn. Besides it's quite ironic that the results apparently disproves the theory of relativity but yet it uses that exact theory to determine the distance between start and finish of the experiment(via gps satellites).

theory of disease has been around since antiquity and so has the theory of evolution and atomic theory

You're only slightly correct about the atom part(atom is a greek word blabla) but the other two statements about disease and evolution you better find a damn good source for. How could they possibly have known about bacteria without a microscope?

leibnez predictyed quantum physics almost to the "t" back before there was any evidence of any such thing

I bet all kinds of stuff have been speculated about at one point in history but there's a dramatic difference between speculation, proof and working theories. Vague speculation just doesn't get the job done.

There might always be a question mark at the 'end'(whatever that might be) of science but you can absolutely not predict where that will be. Personally I'd be shocked if a working theory of the origin of the universe has not been worked out by the end of this century.

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Does anyone know if Hawkins is or isn't using his mind to try to "cure" his disease?

[Radical Plato]

It all makes sense to me now!, I always wondered why such a brilliant mind would be trapped in a retarded useless body such as Stephens.  It is the perfect plan, no-one wants to be seen attacking a cripple, Stephen has the unique ability to tell the truth, that offends so many in denial or without the courage to explore further.  Throughout History those who have spoken universal truth have been assassinated.  Stephen Hawkings is a beautiful man, and his courage to speak openly against such hostile delusional naysayers is nothing short of a miracle - the above is the only miracle I have ever heard of, a man being able to tell the truth without threat of assassination - I love you Stephen - you beautiful magnificent cripple. 

[Shockwave]

Does anyone know if Hawkins is or isn't using his mind to try to "cure" his disease?

I dont believe he does.
Like I said earlier, my opinion of Hawkings is that he's butthurt about his lot in life and about his disability
Id be pissed too if i was uber intelligent but looked like a human prune and sounds like a 1980's Macintosh. Thats not even including the fact that he stuck in a wheelchair and cant move. 

[Parker]

I dont believe he does.
Like I said earlier, my opinion of Hawkings is that he's butthurt about his lot in life and about his disability
Id be pissed too if i was uber intelligent but looked like a human prune and sounds like a 1980's Macintosh. Thats not even including the fact that he stuck in a wheelchair and cant move. 

Yeah, I've said it before...you'd think there was no god if you had his "luck".
I bet you he'd trade all his accomplishments, his intelligence, for one day as a handsome man who got the fuck the woman of his dreams---and could run, jump, walk up the stairs, and use the bathroom without someone wiping his ass or wearing a diaper...oh and have the voice of Barry White...

Each and everyone of us should be lucky that we are not sitting (or shitting) in his wheelchair, people having pity on you, and sounding like a Texas Instruments Speak n Spell.

[Shockwave]

Yeah, I've said it before...you'd think there was no god if you had his "luck".
I bet you he'd trade all his accomplishments, his intelligence, for one day as a handsome man who got the fuck the woman of his dreams---and could run, jump, walk up the stairs, and use the bathroom without someone wiping his ass or wearing a diaper...oh and have the voice of Barry White...

Each and everyone of us should be lucky that we are not sitting (or shitting) in his wheelchair, people having pity on you, and sounding like a Texas Instruments Speak n Spell.

Agreed, I pretty much said the same thing earlier
 

Hawking is just pissed that god was drunk when he was putting him together.
If Hawking had to acknowledge that there was a god, he would be acknowledging that someone INTENTIONALLY made him the way he is. Pretty sure Hawking is pissed at life for his ailment, id bet 1099870987 dollards he'd trade his intelligence for a working body in .000000000000001 milliseconds.

[Parker]

Agreed, I pretty much said the same thing earlier
 

Ever have a Texas Instruments Speak n Spell as a kid? Well he sounds just like it. And when the batteries start to die, the. Damn thing starts to stutter and the words on the screen start to mesh together with numbers...it's like the damn thing has an "ailment"...everytime I hear him talk, I think that one day the computer he's using will start stuttering like the Speak n'Spell (I can't hold back my laughter).

[Shockwave]

Ever have a Texas Instruments Speak n Spell as a kid? Well he sounds just like it. And when the batteries start to die, the. Damn thing starts to stutter and the words on the screen start to mesh together with numbers...it's like the damn thing has an "ailment"...everytime I hear him talk, I think that one day the computer he's using will start stuttering like the Speak n'Spell (I can't hold back my laughter).

BAHAHAHA!!!
I remember those things, dead nuts on Parker.

[The_Leafy_Bug]

let socrates infiltrate your mind...

Socrates fills candidizzles minds as Tyrone fills his ass with 13 inches of ebony dark chocolate goodness.