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Author Topic: Jones refused heavyweight fight.  (Read 4300 times)
Dreadlifter
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« on: February 02, 2012, 02:22:18 PM »

http://www.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/133854.html

According to this Jones has requested a heavyweight fight but Dana says no.

"Jon Jones is so confident that he will remain light-heavyweight champion by the end of this year that he has requested a fight at heavyweight in 2012.

Jones is a dominant force on the 205lb scene, already destroying Mauricio Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson and Lyoto Machida. Next up is Rashad Evans in April, another man he is a huge favourite to overcome.

That would arguably only leave Dan Henderson as Jones' one remaining outstanding test. After that he would potentially be looking at rematches with the likes of Machida, who is convinced he could overcome the champion at the second attempt.

However, Jones has previously confessed he wants to fight at least three times this year, and wins over Evans and Henderson would leave him needing one more challenge. The youngster eyed a heavyweight splash, but the UFC said no.

"I figured beating Henderson and Rashad, there would be a period of trying to figure out who I would fight next, and during that period, at the end of 2012, I requested to fight a top 10 heavyweight just for the fans," Jones told The MMA Hour.

"But Dana and Lorenzo [Fertitta] did not think that was the best thing for me to do right now, they wanted me to continue in the light-heavyweight division."
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Migs
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THERE WAS A FIRE FIGHT!!!!


« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 02:57:40 PM »

he would lose
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MMM BOOBIES
suckmymuscle
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 04:42:09 PM »

  I don't think Jon Jones fully understands the kind of strength, power and viciousness that heavyweights have.

  He thinks that, because he can beat 5'11 guys with average frames, that he can beat guys over 6'3 with huge frames.

  He has no idea what it is like to have a 6'4 man with elephant-sized bones charging at him wanting to separate his head from his body.

  Someone like JDS would laugh at Jones' petty spinning elbows, move right through them and knock his head 50 feet onto the audience.

  There is a reason why SWAT forces throughout the World use higher caliber weapons to take out pepetrators over 6'3 with big bones. It is the same reason why there are weight classes in all combat sports - because frame size, strengh and power matter a lot in combat.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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Archer77
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 07:15:31 PM »

 I don't think Jon Jones fully understands the kind of strength, power and viciousness that heavyweights have.

  He thinks that, because he can beat 5'11 guys with average frames, that he can beat guys over 6'3 with huge frames.

  He has no idea what it is like to have a 6'4 man with elephant-sized bones charging at him wanting to separate his head from his body.

  Someone like JDS would laugh at Jones' petty spinning elbows, move right through them and knock his head 50 feet onto the audience.

  There is a reason why SWAT forces throughout the World use higher caliber weapons to take out pepetrators over 6'3 with big bones. It is the same reason why there are weight classes in all combat sports - because frame size, strengh and power matter a lot in combat.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 08:09:46 PM »

Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.

  Not in height. But in width and frame, yeah, there is...huge. JDS's wrists are as thick as Jones' ankles.

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coltrane
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 07:22:14 AM »

You might wanna change the thread title to "UFC refuses Jones a HW fight"


For once I agree with SMM.  I don't think Jones realizes the power and sheer brute size of the heavies.  I think he'd likely get mauled by the top 5.  However, could he beat a Cro cop or another lower calibre hw?  Perhaps.

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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 07:41:39 AM »

  Not in height. But in width and frame, yeah, there is...huge. JDS's wrists are as thick as Jones' ankles.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

JDS is a small heavyweight compared to the overeams anyway.  I understand what your saying and I agree.   We can both probably agree that Jones is a large light heavyweight.
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 01:10:45 PM »

You might wanna change the thread title to "UFC refuses Jones a HW fight"


For once I agree with SMM.  I don't think Jones realizes the power and sheer brute size of the heavies.  I think he'd likely get mauled by the top 5.  However, could he beat a Cro cop or another lower calibre hw?  Perhaps.



  I am highly emotional right now. I knew this day would come. Cry

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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 01:27:34 PM »

  Jones has no idea what it's like to have a 6'4 giant with wrists as thick as the average man's ankles charging at you wanting to destroy you. He's in for a brutal wakeup.

  Can Jones beat a HW? He is by far the most innately talented fighter in the UFC, so he might. But he could get seriously injured.

  The HWs are so far ahead all the other weight classes in strength, power and ability to take damage(the thicker your bones, the more impact your body can handle) that they are in a class of their own.

  The difference between all weight classes is 15 lbs, but the HWs can be up to 265 lbs or 60 lbs heavier than the LHWs. The difference in weight between a HW and a LHW can be the same as that between a LHW and a LW!

  The kind of punch that merely phases a HW could give a concussion to a LHW. HW have very thick skulls and huge heads which can take these blows, but LHWs can't.

  Jones wouldn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell against someone like Carwin or Overeem. Not only are these guys 6'5, but they have to diet to be 265 lbs. Even at 290 lbs, they still have little bodyfat. Pound-for-pound, Jones is better, but those guys have a lot more pounds than he has.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 11:33:39 AM »

I can see Jones filling out to a slender 240 one day and be ready to fight, but not in the next 12 - 18 months unless he takes a break. He knows his limits and im sure his ego is allowing him to think of world domination, but the step up will not be as smooth for him as he believes it to be. He wants a top 10 guy, OK how about Frank? He's a gate keeper and so far away from winning the title again its ridiculous, but i believe his striking would be good enough to atleast rock Jones and allow a takedown. From there its a broken arm or leg. Chieck Kongo would struggle based on his complete lack of ground game but in a striking match he would overcome Jones over 2 - 3 rounds. Shane Carwin? He would crush Jones' jaw and send him away in an ambulance and he's as far off the title as Frank.

Mitrione & Nelson would present good opportunities for him to get a HW win, however Nelson is always dangerous and can give anyone a run for their money. Jones is far and away the most dominant LHW i have ever seen from any era, his skill set is frightening and he has the potential to coast through his career at 205 without ever looking in trouble. If he wants to prove himself at 220+ then he needs to work his way up to it slowly and not just try to jump in the deep end.

The logical step for me is not the ridiculous GSP vs Silva fight everyone wants to see as Silva is far too big for him, but Silva vs Jones would be fantastic. I once thought Jones would crush Silva but i am no longer a fan of his ego, i would like to see someone - anyone - deliver an ass kicking of epic proportions to him in 2012.
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 01:00:54 PM »

Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.

Arlovski is 6'4"


* jones.jpg (39.29 KB, 455x339 - viewed 849 times.)
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 01:08:49 PM »

It goes like this, the light heavy weights are basically fighting for a paycheck at this point since their division is pretty much in limbo with Bones as the champ. Can't believe people even say Jones should stay at LHW and continue "clearing out the division" because clearly he WILL do just that, with very little effort. Hendo, Rashad sadly dont even stand a punchers chance against the 6' 5" monster with the longest reach in the UFC (yes longer than tallest heavyweights)

I dont wanna pay $55 to see him fight at LHW, but I'd pay that to see him fight the likes of Junior and Overeem. Guys who actually stand a chance against him.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 06:40:51 PM »

Arlovski is 6'4"

This is the kind of thing that really rubs me the wrong way and should be considered by fans and officials to be way more offensive than steroid use.  Silva is in the same league as Jones.  Both Jones and Silva have earned their unbeatable reputation by dominating men a lot smaller than themselves. For some reason sports journalists and fans turn a blind eye  and continue to hype these guys as unbeatable champions.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 08:18:05 PM »

This is the kind of thing that really rubs me the wrong way and should be considered by fans and officials to be way more offensive than steroid use.  Silva is in the same league as Jones.  Both Jones and Silva have earned their unbeatable reputation by dominating men a lot smaller than themselves. For some reason sports journalists and fans turn a blind eye  and continue to hype these guys as unbeatable champions.

qft

They completely ignore the size factor, almost as if it makes no difference at all. Complete ignorance, basically just people who don't know anything about the sport they are watching. And Zuffa deliberately throws around bs height stats when they want a certain fighter to be perceived a certain way by the easily manipulated consumer fans, no different from WWE.
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2012, 07:20:47 AM »

Honestly then guys, what should be done about height/reach ?   It would be so difficult to group fighters based upon these two traits.  You'd have plenty more divisions. 

I honestly think height/reach are just a part of a fighters advantages.  Just like a GSP is a great wrestler, his striking isn't tops.  Obviously his wrestling is his advantage.  And vice versa for someone like say, Liddell. 

Liddell carried on for years with awesome striking.  No one was saying that he should've dropped weight and fought a more fast striker etc.

Jones is indeed an oddity and i would like to see him fight a lower-calibre HW, but trying to force him up to HW wouldn't be fair. 
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:47 AM »

Honestly then guys, what should be done about height/reach ?   It would be so difficult to group fighters based upon these two traits.  You'd have plenty more divisions. 

I honestly think height/reach are just a part of a fighters advantages.  Just like a GSP is a great wrestler, his striking isn't tops.  Obviously his wrestling is his advantage.  And vice versa for someone like say, Liddell. 

Liddell carried on for years with awesome striking.  No one was saying that he should've dropped weight and fought a more fast striker etc.

Jones is indeed an oddity and i would like to see him fight a lower-calibre HW, but trying to force him up to HW wouldn't be fair. 

  GSP's wrestling is an advantage he had to work for. It involves volition. Conversely, Jones' reach is a purely morphological characteristic that allows him to destroy opponents with impunity. MMA should be about skills that are earned through hard work and not overwehlming your opponents with sheer size or reach.

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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2012, 11:25:03 AM »

  GSP's wrestling is an advantage he had to work for. It involves volition. Conversely, Jones' reach is a purely morphological characteristic that allows him to destroy opponents with impunity. MMA should be about skills that are earned through hard work and not overwehlming your opponents with sheer size or reach.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Exactly. Im positive Jones wouldn't be nearly as dominant if he were 5 11 with a 74" reach. Im not saying hes not a skilled fighter though, he seems very technical and cerebral, smart fighter. But I wonder how those traits would change if he wasn't at such a massive advantage. Until he fights someone closer to his own size I can't tell how good he really is, and dont buy into thetop p4p hype he gets.
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2012, 01:29:36 PM »

So what do you two propose then?  Trying to categorize fighters based upon reach? 
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2012, 01:31:05 PM »

Exactly. Im positive Jones wouldn't be nearly as dominant if he were 5 11 with a 74" reach. Im not saying hes not a skilled fighter though, he seems very technical and cerebral, smart fighter. But I wonder how those traits would change if he wasn't at such a massive advantage. Until he fights someone closer to his own size I can't tell how good he really is, and dont buy into thetop p4p hype he gets.

I would love to see someone gather statistic on this sort of thing.  What is the average height, weight or reach difference (if there is one) between the champion of a weight division and their closes competition?  It would be interesting to see whether there is some kind of significant physical variation that sets a champion apart from his competition rather than it purely being a matter superior skill set.  Size isn't everything but it can be a very important factor.   Put two guys in the ring of equal skill but one is bigger and stronger,and I guarantee the the bigger and stronger fighter will win almost every time.  There are exceptions but as a general rule this holds true.

For an example, one needs only to look at the heavyweight division in  boxing. The Klitschko brothers are vastly larger in size to the majority of their competition and they are pretty dominate.  They also posses great skill or at the very least employ a style that takes advantage of their greater size and reach.  


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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2012, 01:35:12 PM »

So what do you two propose then?  Trying to categorize fighters based upon reach? 

One way to curtail fighters from gaining twenty or more pounds before a fight is to weight them the day of the fight, more than once.  If you don't weight 205 or close to it by the time of the fight, you have no business fighting at 205  There is no reason a man weighing 230 pounds at fight time should be stepping into the ring fighting at 205
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2012, 03:44:10 PM »

Lets start with the focal point of the topic: Bones Jones. His official stats are 193cm for height & 215cm for reach. Listed below are the top contenders in the division hes already smashed;

Rampage

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 185cm which equates to only 86% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 16% advantage (not 14 for those jumping the gun).

Machida

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 188cm which equates to only 87% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 14% advantage.

Shogun

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 193cm which not only is the longest reach of the selected fighters but still equates to only 90% of Bones' reach, giving Bones an 11% advantage.

Then we have the coming defence against Rashad:

Height = 180cm which equates to 93% of Bones' height.
Reach = 191cm which equates to only 89% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 12% advantage.


His lack of height is made up for in reach but even he does not compare well statistically speaking. Bones simply doesnt have anyone that can match anything he has and could quite easily beat guys up without ever having a punch landed on him due to his outstanding reach. He has alot of room for manoeuvre in the exchanges without putting himself in danger.
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »

Lets start with the focal point of the topic: Bones Jones. His official stats are 193cm for height & 215cm for reach. Listed below are the top contenders in the division hes already smashed;

Rampage

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 185cm which equates to only 86% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 16% advantage (not 14 for those jumping the gun).

Machida

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 188cm which equates to only 87% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 14% advantage.

Shogun

Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 193cm which not only is the longest reach of the selected fighters but still equates to only 90% of Bones' reach, giving Bones an 11% advantage.

Then we have the coming defence against Rashad:

Height = 180cm which equates to 93% of Bones' height.
Reach = 191cm which equates to only 89% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 12% advantage.


His lack of height is made up for in reach but even he does not compare well statistically speaking. Bones simply doesnt have anyone that can match anything he has and could quite easily beat guys up without ever having a punch landed on him due to his outstanding reach. He has alot of room for manoeuvre in the exchanges without putting himself in danger.


Absolutely phenomenal post.    I would be curious to see the same use of statistics applied to the other weight classes.   The interesting part is that the numbers seem to be fairly consistent which kind of proves the point that he is across the board larger than his closest competition. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 05:46:43 PM »

Absolutely phenomenal post.    I would be curious to see the same use of statistics applied to the other weight classes.   The interesting part is that the numbers seem to be fairly consistent which kind of proves the point that he is across the board larger than his closest competition. 

The numbers proving what was speculated. very interesting. Shoguns advantageous reach must of helped him in some of his previous striking wars.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 07:26:40 AM »

Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything.  Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.

The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field?  Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW? 

Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes? 

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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 09:52:47 AM »

Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything.  Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.

The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field?  Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW? 

Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes? 



Sure, but it is definitely fascinating and enlightening to see the numbers.  Maybe there isn't anything you can do to rectify the size disparity but it does make it clearer that a fighter like Jones isn't winning based on skill along, and that should put the whole situation into perspective.   
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