59% of Catholics now Dissaprove of Obama (Santorum Surge anyone?)

[240 is Back]

I subject my assistant to slayer, megadeth, black sabbath, and satanic music.

if she cant deal with it, she will quit,  

hey man, let's give it 5 years.  once this legal precedent is set based upon christian law, the others will apply.

congressmen already say they'll back every religion equally as required by law.  Dangerous!

[Shockwave]

but what happens when an amish employer says he doesn't believe in electricity, and makes employees work in the heat?

what if an employer is muslim and requires female employees to wear that headgear?

IMO, it's a slippery slope.  Once you allow an employer to judge what is "required for healthy living" as you put it... it's slippery!

Yeah, its a slippery slope. For the government. Tell you what - I want electricity, I dont go trying to get a job with the AMISH and then force them to change their business practices to my wants.
I get to choose (for the most part) where I work. Its a two way system. And the government should NOT tell everyone that they HAVE to offer something. Thats bullshit. When I go looking for a job, I look at the benefits they offer. Many times, you can tell how much the company cares about the employees by the benefits and the pay.
I would not want to go to work for someone who is only offering something because they have to.

And thats just from my perspective.
From a constitutional perspective, this is total bullshit. This is not about treating employees fairly. Theyre not being denied anything or being forced to work under shitty conditions. They can go get BC fucking anywhere. Why in the holy fuck should a place that doesnt believe in it be forced to offer it? Especially when it contradicts with their freedom to practice religion?

You need to stop arguing just because you try and play the "devils advocate" role, it really makes you look like a moron.

[240 is Back]

How is allowing employers to freely choose how to spend their own money the same AT ALL to "letting religion into lawmaking"  

wait til some not-so-obscure religion says they disagree with all forms of healthcare outside of praying.

and they refuse to offer any kind of beneifts to their full time employees who have been there for 20 years.

What then?

[240 is Back]

i'm fine with not giving their asses BC - but don't do it because of RELIGION.

do it because socialized medicine is BS.  But not because of some holy book.

cause there are holy books that say all sorts of shit.  and the minute you let one do it...

[howardroark]

wait til some not-so-obscure religion says they disagree with all forms of healthcare outside of praying.

and they refuse to offer any kind of beneifts to their full time employees who have been there for 20 years.

What then?

IF that business does not have a pre-existing LEGAL and CONTRACTUAL obligation to provide health benefits, then those employees will be laughing their asses off when they get hired by another employer while watching their old employer go out of business.

[240 is Back]

IF that business does not have a pre-existing LEGAL and CONTRACTUAL obligation to provide health benefits, then those employees will be laughing their asses off when they get hired by another employer while watching their old employer go out of business.

actually - if the Ahole company doesn't have to pay healthcare costs, they will make a greater profit.  so i'm not sure they'd go out of business.  Their employees would cost 60% less.

I think you just created evidence that using religion to shield from healthcare will lead to companies possibly making MORE money?

[Shockwave]

i'm fine with not giving their asses BC - but don't do it because of RELIGION.

do it because socialized medicine is BS.  But not because of some holy book.

cause there are holy books that say all sorts of shit.  and the minute you let one do it...

WTF?!
Its about our constitutional right to practice freedom of religion. Its not about their religion. Its about our RIGHTS and LIBERTIES. 1st they take away your right to practice your religion (or lack thereof) the way you see fit. Then they take away your rights to read certain books. Then they take away your freedom of speech. How do you make this about their religion? It wouldnt matter if they were catholic, muslim, or fucking hindu, the government should NOT mandate what that business/org can offer, ESPECIALLY when it violates one of the fundamental liberties this country was founded on.

Just as the government should not mandate what health insurance you buy, how much coverage, and from whom.

[howardroark]

actually - if the Ahole company doesn't have to pay healthcare costs, they will make a greater profit.  so i'm not sure they'd go out of business.  Their employees would cost 60% less.

You receive 60% less in compensation from your employer. Someone else is willing to hire you for that 60% more (actually would be 250% of your current compensation, but whatever). What do you do? What happens to your employer?

[Shockwave]

wait til some not-so-obscure religion says they disagree with all forms of healthcare outside of praying.

and they refuse to offer any kind of beneifts to their full time employees who have been there for 20 years.

What then?

Youre being an idiot. If they dont offer healtcare, guess what - people are going to take other jobs.
The 20 years bit is stupid - if they were hired with a contract, and they suddenly decided they were going to can health insurance - well its not even worth discussing.

[240 is Back]

You receive 60% less in compensation from your employer. Someone else is willing to hire you for that 60% more (actually would be 250% of your current compensation, but whatever). What do you do? What happens to your employer?

i meant (i vaguely recall) that the admin/healthcare costs of an employee are something like 60% of his/her salary? 

[howardroark]

i meant (i vaguely recall) that the admin/healthcare costs of an employee are something like 60% of his/her salary? 

Sure, and if the employee stops getting health benefits without a corresponding increase in his/her salary or wage rate, do you really think that employee will stay at that company if they can get a better deal at a competitor?

The fact of the matter is that you're arguing about a non-issue. And, of course, your solution to that non-issue is using society's single most dangerous tool, government, to correct this perceived problem. And once you start going down that path all sorts of ridiculous things start happening.

[Shockwave]

240, you need to give up on your liberatarian bullshit. You are NOT conservative OR liberatarian by any stretch of the imagination.
Everything you have said in this thread is straight out of Obamas mouth.

I cant tell if you actually believe your own lies or if youre just playing devils advocate - but whatever it is, it sure makes you look like a fucking idiot.

Youre basically saying you feel its ok for the government to tell business owners how to run their business. And that every business has to offer the same benefits. Which is a joke.

I know as a citizen, I wouldnt WANT every job to offer the same benefits. Its telling to how a company is going to treat their employee's by the kind of benefits they offer.

But I guess you wouldnt know that, since your job was to build websites.

How would you feel if the government told you that since your building a website for someone, that you have to offer them copies of an expensive website editing program with every site you built, so that they can edit it on their own after youre done with the initial build? (And that you had to pay for every copy of that program out of your own profits)

How would you feel about that?

[240 is Back]

i'm saying that i'm FINE with the govt not giving ANY healthcare benefits for ANY employees...

just don't base who has to/doesn't have to, upon what version of the holy book they read.

Make it so that NO EMPLOYER IN AMERICA has to provide BC.  I"m cool with that.

But i'm NOT cool with company A not having that cost because they swing that holy bible, while company B paying for it, because they don't.

[240 is Back]

My opinion is based on fairness - the MINUTE you let 'certain' religions get away with shit... you open the door for crazy abuse.

repub congress can put up a law saying " to save money, ZERO AMERICAN FIRMS have to provide BC to employees".  I'm cool with that.  Get a repub senate in 2013 and push it thru if the dems hate on it now.

But the m*****fcking fact that "my religion says..." ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I hate that shit.  Keep your religion at home.  Does NOT belong in lawmaking.

[Soul Crusher]

i'm saying that i'm FINE with the govt not giving ANY healthcare benefits for ANY employees...

just don't base who has to/doesn't have to, upon what version of the holy book they read.

Make it so that NO EMPLOYER IN AMERICA has to provide BC.  I"m cool with that.

But i'm NOT cool with company A not having that cost because they swing that holy bible, while company B paying for it, because they don't.

hhhhhhmmmmmmm - never remember you objecting to the unions getting waivers.   

[240 is Back]

hhhhhhmmmmmmm - never remember you objecting to the unions getting waivers.   

so before you make this an 'attack 240' derailment... you agree with me?

[Soul Crusher]

My opinion is based on fairness - the MINUTE you let 'certain' religions get away with shit... you open the door for crazy abuse.

repub congress can put up a law saying " to save money, ZERO AMERICAN FIRMS have to provide BC to employees".  I'm cool with that.  Get a repub senate in 2013 and push it thru if the dems hate on it now.

But the m*****fcking fact that "my religion says..." ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I hate that shit.  Keep your religion at home.  Does NOT belong in lawmaking.

This all came about because obama, despite the pleadings of his own staff not to do what he did, lied to the Bishop.    

[Soul Crusher]

so before you make this an 'attack 240' derailment... you agree with me?

I said very clearly my outrage over this has nothing to do with religion, but the fact that ANY EMPLOYER is forced to provide things as determined by the govt.   The fact that it came about due to a riff w the church is just a matter of convenience for the larger battle here.   

[blacken700]

the were running 3 losers so we have to cover it up with this fake outrage thread still going

[240 is Back]

This all came about because obama, despite the pleadings of his own staff not to do what he did, lied to the Bishop.   

oh boy, i am SO not concerned about what obama and any religious leader discuss.  to me, religion has zero place in govt.  religious leaders have zero business agreeing to anything with the prez.   i went to religious school for 10 years.  it's a fear and guilt-driven business, that's it.

[Soul Crusher]

oh boy, i am SO not concerned about what obama and any religious leader discuss.  to me, religion has zero place in govt.  religious leaders have zero business agreeing to anything with the prez.   i went to religious school for 10 years.  it's a fear and guilt-driven business, that's it.

They called the Bishop in first moron. 

And guess what - when you get socialism w no choice like you keep saying you want, and how thugbama wants, this shit happens. 

obama can take his healthscam bill and shove it up his ass.   

[blacken700]

i think he's shoving it up yours

[Soul Crusher]

i think he's shoving it up yours

no - the nations' who does not want this at all!    This health care bill is a tyrannical impeachment worthy scam on this nation. 

Only a radical communist leftist like yourself would support this. 

[Shockwave]

My opinion is based on fairness - the MINUTE you let 'certain' religions get away with shit... you open the door for crazy abuse.

repub congress can put up a law saying " to save money, ZERO AMERICAN FIRMS have to provide BC to employees".  I'm cool with that.  Get a repub senate in 2013 and push it thru if the dems hate on it now.

But the m*****fcking fact that "my religion says..." ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I hate that shit.  Keep your religion at home.  Does NOT belong in lawmaking.

Where the fuck do you get that only religious institutions should be exempt?
They shouldnt be able to mandate ANY business has to offer BC - but they sure as shit shouldnt be able to mandate religious orgs that have constitutional protection to mandate something that is against the basic right to practice religion.
Youre getting this whole "fairness" attitude that Obama is always preaching.
The country has certain constitutional liberties that it was founded on that the gov has been shitting all over. One of the biggest ones is the right to practice your religious beliefs as you see fit. The gov should not just be able to say, fuck your religion, you do this anyway. If they want to do that, they might as well just go edit the whole "right to freedom of religion" out of the constitution. Or put an asterik that says *Gov has the right to modify your religious beliefs in order to comply with mandates*
Doesnt sound to great, does it?/

This is not a strictly religious issue, its larger than that, and your pathetic attempts to make it about religion only are sad and idiotic. This is about government forcing its will against the very basis of the constitutional rights the country was founded on.

[Shockwave]

oh boy, i am SO not concerned about what obama and any religious leader discuss.  to me, religion has zero place in govt.  religious leaders have zero business agreeing to anything with the prez.   i went to religious school for 10 years.  it's a fear and guilt-driven business, that's it.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION YOU GODDAMN IDIOT. Stop trying to make it a religious issue -
Its about the government violating basic constitutional rights!!
Its a church now, next time itll be about what you can and cant say on your websites. Then itll be how much you can charge for your websites. Then itll be how much the government decides to give you for building your web sites.
Jesus fucking Christ.

Its like that poem
1st they came for the jews, and I said nothing cause I wasnt a jew
Then they came for the catholics, and I said nothing, cause I wasnt a catholic.
Then they came for the protestants, and I said nothing.
Then they came for me, and no one said anything cause there was no one left.

Get it?