for me, i get fat easy, so i never tried that because you have to drink down all that junk sugar...,,i can go up to 16iu of log or R pre-workout as long as i have a decent regular meal with them, for breakfast i eat 4whites, 2 whole eggs, 7oz steak, 8oz orange juice, 2 packs oats, bananna, so if this is my pre-wo meal, i usually only need 20 or so sugar junk carbs to get me through all the training and into my regular postworkout meal. when i train in evening my pre-wo meal is 10oz chicken and 4 rice cakes (44g carbs), and i usually only need to add 32 or so junk sugar drink carbs during my workout to get me through 1hr weights and another 40 min cardio