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Author Topic: Cycling Testosterone  (Read 6014 times)
Marlo Stanfield
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 07:34:57 AM »

it's not a theory. Testosterone, while very anabolic and a very potent one at that, also is very catobolic. Muscle tissue is broken down easier in the presence of supraphysiological doses of testosterone, although it is rebuilt much faster. So you will build muscle with tesotsterone,obviously... but not nearly at the rate if you were to use pure anabolics. Testosterone stimulates protein synthesis but also protein degradation hence a huge cancelation effect, which is why the gains of a test only cycle in most cases are much slower than if you were to use anabolic with it. .  There was a study on this I recall, where patients were given a mild dose of anavar and a low dose of test (I think like 300mg), and gained just as much muscle in 8 weeks as the other group using a large dose of testosterone. (aroud 600mg) for 20 weeks! Food for thought...

I know that tren on the other hand is quite the opposite, it actually is more of a pure anti catabolic: actually lowers protein synthesis, but decreases protein breakdown. So test and tren it's no mystery why it works when used together. Also theories aside, the greatest physiques of all time did not use much testosterone. 

im not sure i can get past this sentence alone. your saying that its a fact that testosterone is catabolic? how can something be anabolic and catabolic at the same time ? Huh

Im not bashing, where are you getting the bold statements from? any published study?
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 08:00:21 AM »

I actually did some research to learn there is a reason why you will never be at your biggest on lots of testosterone vs if you were on high doses of anabolics, but I don't care to explain cause I know people will disagree with me lol. Guys are stubborn, they take high doses of test cause they feel they must, but you really only need 200mg or so



I'm with you on this.
Anabolics are far better at adding mass than plain testosterone. I find D-bol, deca, even primo to be be better at putting muscle on me than test.
I also speak from experience, I have ran just about every AAS completely solo just so I was familiar with their individual effects.
I like the feeling of a decent dose of test, like the raging libido, but that is it.... all it does other than that is make me hairy and hold a little more water.
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 01:30:12 PM »

Two things.....

In years past, and this seems to hold true with almost every guy I've ever worked with.....testosterone doses....if the dose is above 500mg/wk but less than 1,000mg/wk there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference in-terms of total progress. Once you reach the 1,000mg/wk range, this is when things start progressing again. In simpler terms:

500mg/wk vs. 750mg/wk --- not much difference.
750mg/wk vs. 1,000mg/wk --- big difference.

Second thing....the New England Journal of Medicine has done several studies using supraphysiological doses of testosterone....their findings would contradict the ones you provided above. On that basis, I'd like to know where you found them because it would be hard to dispute the NEJM....one of the few reputable medical groups that's been fairly unbiased when it comes to hormones.

No they don't. I am aware of the NEJM study where eugondal men were given supraphysiological doses of testoserone enanthate (600mg) and showed large increses in muscle mass and strength, while comparing 600mg to 300mg and 150mg I believe. What is your point? Test builds muscle no shit Cheesy but, there was a study that showed a low dose of anavar resulted in just as much muscle mass gain in 8 weeks combined with a low dosage of testosterone, compared to mega doses of testosterone for 20 weeks. So a little test and anavar will give you the same gains in 8 weeks as a mega dose of testosterone for 20 weeks.  As well as real life experience I'm sure you will agree, how adding a little deca or EQ can do wonders to a heavy test cycle. My theory is just based on the mechanisms that testosterone works by, muscle growth is slower...efficient yes, but not optimal. When it comes to the heavy androgens like test , there is a huge cancelation effect. This is way over my head to go into where I'm typing right now and I'm too tired to explain: but in a nuthsell: It has to do with insulin.  after a certain point androgens provide their own antidote against muscle growth through lower insulin output. This can be overcome by using enough anabolics in high enough doses, although I do not know the exact mechanism for why, I just know it works. From myself as well as Buselmo,BLP,other bodybuilders I have talked to.

Also- Testosterone isn't even a true anabolic steroid as far as I'm concerned, it's just the  male's primary sex hormone.  Also let me say I enjoy reading your posts and think your very knowladgable  Smiley just a little biased in some areas.
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 01:40:22 PM »

im not sure i can get past this sentence alone. your saying that its a fact that testosterone is catabolic? how can something be anabolic and catabolic at the same time ? Huh

Im not bashing, where are you getting the bold statements from? any published study?

Oh god brother I can't remember where I got everything from, I usually read something and take bits and pieces and  keep it in a file in the back of my mind lol.

here is a study you may find interesting though to back the theory though, I'll look around for some other stuff

http://www.ergo-log.com/oxandrolonetestosterone.html


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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 01:42:46 PM »

btw let me say- I know this is nothing new. Guys have known this holds true for decades ...I just find the topic interesting Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2012, 01:46:17 PM »

btw let me say- I know this is nothing new. Guys have known this holds true for decades ...I just find the topic interesting Smiley

What is nothing new and holds true for decades?


Cool
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2012, 02:39:00 PM »

Flin dont knock high dosed test untill you try it yourself. which you may have but from your posts in this thrrad it seems like your just relying on second hand information. 

pretty much the only thing i used for the past few years was testosterone, either cyp or enan, on average 750-1000 per week. worked well.  not magic, but ok.    bumped the doseage up to 1500mg for a coule weeks while i was using omnadrens, and i blew up real nice. wish i would have had more.

i do think it would be better to run higher doses of anabolics but test still works quite well. much better for mass than alot of roids. and its cheap.  
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2012, 03:23:26 PM »

Back on topic there all shit up the gh.

I used high dose test gains in weight were great but felt a lot was water. Deca dbol was a lot leaner gains looked very round not a bloxky mid section which made me look smaller. That's what i liked about no test.
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2012, 03:35:23 PM »

Will a high dose of an AI or nolva keep the water under control?
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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2012, 03:39:39 PM »

Flin dont knock high dosed test untill you try it yourself. which you may have but from your posts in this thrrad it seems like your just relying on second hand information.  

pretty much the only thing i used for the past few years was testosterone, either cyp or enan, on average 750-1000 per week. worked well.  not magic, but ok.    bumped the doseage up to 1500mg for a coule weeks while i was using omnadrens, and i blew up real nice. wish i would have had more.

i do think it would be better to run higher doses of anabolics but test still works quite well. much better for mass than alot of roids. and its cheap.  

who do you think your talking to some 16 year old on his first cycle? lol. I get watson cyp straight from the american pharm and galenikas from serbia, have not been off test in close to 3 years. 400mg minimum for HRT and alot more when blasting.  I can speak from experience: It doesn't do shit for me other than hair on my back, some thickness, and water weight..very little tissue gain. But like you said: all steroids stop working at some point and there is a time when you must change compounds. So who knows...maybe my body just built up an immunity to test.  
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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2012, 04:07:40 PM »

No they don't. I am aware of the NEJM study where eugondal men were given supraphysiological doses of testoserone enanthate (600mg) and showed large increses in muscle mass and strength, while comparing 600mg to 300mg and 150mg I believe. What is your point? Test builds muscle no shit Cheesy but, there was a study that showed a low dose of anavar resulted in just as much muscle mass gain in 8 weeks combined with a low dosage of testosterone, compared to mega doses of testosterone for 20 weeks. So a little test and anavar will give you the same gains in 8 weeks as a mega dose of testosterone for 20 weeks.  As well as real life experience I'm sure you will agree, how adding a little deca or EQ can do wonders to a heavy test cycle. My theory is just based on the mechanisms that testosterone works by, muscle growth is slower...efficient yes, but not optimal. When it comes to the heavy androgens like test , there is a huge cancelation effect. This is way over my head to go into where I'm typing right now and I'm too tired to explain: but in a nuthsell: It has to do with insulin.  after a certain point androgens provide their own antidote against muscle growth through lower insulin output. This can be overcome by using enough anabolics in high enough doses, although I do not know the exact mechanism for why, I just know it works. From myself as well as Buselmo,BLP,other bodybuilders I have talked to.

Also- Testosterone isn't even a true anabolic steroid as far as I'm concerned, it's just the  male's primary sex hormone.  Also let me say I enjoy reading your posts and think your very knowladgable  Smiley just a little biased in some areas.

I would be shocked, more than shocked if you had two guys who were relatively equal in every way and if you gave one 1,000mg of test a wk and one a very low dose of test and even 100mg of Anavar and the Anavar guy gained more lean tissue than the high test guy...in-fact, if this were possible, I'd be willing to wager $1,000 the Anavar guy wouldn't win...make it $10,000.

I'm not saying low doses of test and high doses of other steroids cannot produce good results....just wanted to clarify. I've done that myself, but high doses of test are essential if you're going to make true gains in mass.....if it weren't, pro bodybuilders wouldn't be supplementing with 2g+ a week.

A side note, saying testosterone isn't really an anabolic steroid....this one doesn't even make sense. It is THE anabolic steroid, it's the primary anabolic steroid. For crying out loud, it carries high anabolic properties.
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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2012, 04:08:30 PM »

who do you think your talking to some 16 year old on his first cycle? lol. I get watson cyp straight from the american pharm and galenikas from serbia, have not been off test in close to 3 years. 400mg minimum for HRT and alot more when blasting.  I can speak from experience: It doesn't do shit for me other than hair on my back, some thickness, and water weight..very little tissue gain. But like you said: all steroids stop working at some point and there is a time when you must change compounds. So who knows...maybe my body just built up an immunity to test.  

That's like saying your body built up an immunity to water and oxygen. I'm not being a smartass, you'll rarely find me making smartass comment....it does happen, but this isn't one of those times.
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2012, 05:42:54 PM »

Flin dont knock high dosed test untill you try it yourself. which you may have but from your posts in this thrrad it seems like your just relying on second hand information. 

pretty much the only thing i used for the past few years was testosterone, either cyp or enan, on average 750-1000 per week. worked well.  not magic, but ok.    bumped the doseage up to 1500mg for a coule weeks while i was using omnadrens, and i blew up real nice. wish i would have had more.

i do think it would be better to run higher doses of anabolics but test still works quite well. much better for mass than alot of roids. and its cheap.  

How did you handle the bloat with that much?
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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2012, 05:53:50 PM »

I would be shocked, more than shocked if you had two guys who were relatively equal in every way and if you gave one 1,000mg of test a wk and one a very low dose of test and even 100mg of Anavar and the Anavar guy gained more lean tissue than the high test guy...in-fact, if this were possible, I'd be willing to wager $1,000 the Anavar guy wouldn't win...make it $10,000.

I'm not saying low doses of test and high doses of other steroids cannot produce good results....just wanted to clarify. I've done that myself, but high doses of test are essential if you're going to make true gains in mass.....if it weren't, pro bodybuilders wouldn't be supplementing with 2g+ a week.

A side note, saying testosterone isn't really an anabolic steroid....this one doesn't even make sense. It is THE anabolic steroid, it's the primary anabolic steroid. For crying out loud, it carries high anabolic properties.



Your right, the pros today are on massive amounts of testosterone. You can not look like a modern pro without using buttloads of test. But, That's part of the reason they all look like shit IMO. These guys didn't use test and were fairly muscular







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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2012, 06:09:49 PM »

who do you think your talking to some 16 year old on his first cycle? lol. I get watson cyp straight from the american pharm and galenikas from serbia, have not been off test in close to 3 years. 400mg minimum for HRT and alot more when blasting.  I can speak from experience: It doesn't do shit for me other than hair on my back, some thickness, and water weight..very little tissue gain. But like you said: all steroids stop working at some point and there is a time when you must change compounds. So who knows...maybe my body just built up an immunity to test.  
well not everybody responds the same to every steroid. smoofcat hates deca. buselmo loves it. fast lane is a non responder to tren. its like the only thing stav will use these days.


That's like saying your body built up an immunity to water and oxygen. I'm not being a smartass, you'll rarely find me making smartass comment....it does happen, but this isn't one of those times.
say someone runs 500mg for two years. the first month or so gains will be phenomenal. next 6 months they will be alright. after about a year the gains will be basically non existent.  youll be running 500mg to basically maintain what you gained originally.   bump the doseage up to a gram.. same thing happens. great gains at first. good gains for a while after. then your just maintaining.  can make a very small amount of progress, but nothing significant. in this sense, yes one does build up a tolerance or immunity.
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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2012, 08:47:24 PM »

well not everybody responds the same to every steroid. smoofcat hates deca. buselmo loves it. fast lane is a non responder to tren. its like the only thing stav will use these days.

 say someone runs 500mg for two years. the first month or so gains will be phenomenal. next 6 months they will be alright. after about a year the gains will be basically non existent.  youll be running 500mg to basically maintain what you gained originally.   bump the doseage up to a gram.. same thing happens. great gains at first. good gains for a while after. then your just maintaining.  can make a very small amount of progress, but nothing significant. in this sense, yes one does build up a tolerance or immunity.
Good post man
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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2012, 09:10:18 PM »

i would love to keep taking dbol but my nips get so damn swollen and sensitive while on it wether on anti-estrogens or not. on drol im g2g
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2012, 01:57:06 AM »



Your right, the pros today are on massive amounts of testosterone. You can not look like a modern pro without using buttloads of test. But, That's part of the reason they all look like shit IMO. These guys didn't use test and were fairly muscular









Hard to say "looks like shit" when you have the likes of Ronnie Coleman the last decade....and he took "butt loads" of test. Currently, Denis Wolf, Evan Centopani.....how could this be deemed "looks like shit?"

As for the pics you posted, without question, I am 100% positive Arnold used testosterone, and all the internet rumors that he didn't or barely used it are just that....rumors. People want to believe he didn't use testosterone....I'm not saying he used 2-3g a wk, but he used it and more than a little...yes, he also had periods of no test. These are his words, not mine.
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2012, 02:04:23 AM »

well not everybody responds the same to every steroid. smoofcat hates deca. buselmo loves it. fast lane is a non responder to tren. its like the only thing stav will use these days.

 say someone runs 500mg for two years. the first month or so gains will be phenomenal. next 6 months they will be alright. after about a year the gains will be basically non existent.  youll be running 500mg to basically maintain what you gained originally.   bump the doseage up to a gram.. same thing happens. great gains at first. good gains for a while after. then your just maintaining.  can make a very small amount of progress, but nothing significant. in this sense, yes one does build up a tolerance or immunity.

I understand what you're saying, and there is definitely some truth to it...that can't be denied, but I don't think it's quite that black and white.

If you're natural, relying on your natural testosterone then you're only going to get so far....if you increase your levels you'll get further, but just as when you're natural there's a cutoff point; however......with higher levels of test, we can make changes with other hormones and will get more out of that test....eventually this will taper off too and we'll have to make more changes or increase the testosterone dosage...or both depending on the person and their goals.

Further, if nothing changes, if we supplement with say 500mg/wk and only 500mg/wk, while we might not be growing anymore if we haven't made any other changes, that testosterone is still helping to support the mass that's in place. This is probably a bit of an over simplification, but at the moment it's the best example I can think of.....you drink water to hydrate, after enough water you are fully hydrated....of course, you'll have to continue to drink more water to remain this way...your hydration isn't improving but the level must be maintained in-order to support what fully hydrated brings. Same with testosterone. Again, I know this isn't the best example, it's simply the first thing that popped in my mind.
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2012, 02:06:14 AM »

i would love to keep taking dbol but my nips get so damn swollen and sensitive while on it wether on anti-estrogens or not. on drol im g2g

Happens to the best of them, and it can vary for everyone. 50mg of Dbol really want to anything to me Gyno wise...signs, symptoms nothing....I've even gotten away with 100mg/ed before and they got a little sore but it wasn't anything bad. Now, 50mg of Anadrol, and that spells guaranteed Gyno symptoms for me every single time.
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« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2012, 02:14:12 AM »



Your right, the pros today are on massive amounts of testosterone. You can not look like a modern pro without using buttloads of test. But, That's part of the reason they all look like shit IMO. These guys didn't use test and were fairly muscular









what you on about, they all mega dosed everything, including test.......... the staple pro regime has long been 1 amp of sus/enth/cyp ed, along with what ever else
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« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2012, 04:21:01 AM »

Will a high dose of an AI or nolva keep the water under control?

Don't run an AI on cycle, you need estrogen to make the most out of your gains while on cycle
If you're having estrogen problems you're most likely doing it wrong and need to make adjustments so that it doesn't happen, not take more drugs
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2012, 08:20:08 AM »

Ok, say someone is running 800mg test, 50mg tren a eod and has plenty of eq on hand drops the test to 250mg a week, and ups the tren and eq. What would the benefits of dropping the test and upping everything else be? And about 5iu of gh ed. Will be upping it to 10iu In a few weeks.
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2012, 02:39:17 PM »

I understand what you're saying, and there is definitely some truth to it...that can't be denied, but I don't think it's quite that black and white.

If you're natural, relying on your natural testosterone then you're only going to get so far....if you increase your levels you'll get further, but just as when you're natural there's a cutoff point; however......with higher levels of test, we can make changes with other hormones and will get more out of that test....eventually this will taper off too and we'll have to make more changes or increase the testosterone dosage...or both depending on the person and their goals.

Further, if nothing changes, if we supplement with say 500mg/wk and only 500mg/wk, while we might not be growing anymore if we haven't made any other changes, that testosterone is still helping to support the mass that's in place. This is probably a bit of an over simplification, but at the moment it's the best example I can think of.....you drink water to hydrate, after enough water you are fully hydrated....of course, you'll have to continue to drink more water to remain this way...your hydration isn't improving but the level must be maintained in-order to support what fully hydrated brings. Same with testosterone. Again, I know this isn't the best example, it's simply the first thing that popped in my mind.
i hear you, i was just clarifying your point for the other people reading the thread, cuz it oculd have been misinterpreted.
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