Author Topic: Obama/Holder lay out the case to assasinate citizens overseas. Bush 3.0?  (Read 1496 times)


blacken700

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The U.S. government has the right to order the killing of American citizens overseas if they are senior al-Qaeda leaders who pose an imminent terrorist threat and cannot reasonably be captured, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said Monday.

your telling me you have a problem with this  ::)

Soul Crusher

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The U.S. government has the right to order the killing of American citizens overseas if they are senior al-Qaeda leaders who pose an imminent terrorist threat and cannot reasonably be captured, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. said Monday.

your telling me you have a problem with this  ::)


Wasnt that the reasoning Bush used to invade Iraq?  Premptive war?   

Hugo Chavez

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Wasnt that the reasoning Bush used to invade Iraq?  Premptive war?   
two different issues there hoss.  Not that I agree with either one.

Soul Crusher

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two different issues there hoss.  Not that I agree with either one.

What is the difference? 

Skip8282

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Score one for Obama.

Solid Policy.

If you go over to join the terrorists.....FUCK YOU.  DIE.

Soul Crusher

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Score one for Obama.

Solid Policy.

If you go over to join the terrorists.....FUCK YOU.  DIE.

I think there should at least be a trial in abstentia or they should at least have some type of process, even if it is mickey mouse. 

 

Hugo Chavez

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What is the difference? 
You're asking what the difference is between preemptive war and assassination of an American citizen is?  uh, why lol?  It's not obvious these are two different things?  What is your case that these are the same thing?

Soul Crusher

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You're asking what the difference is between preemptive war and assassination of an American citizen is?  uh, why lol?  It's not obvious these are two different things?  What is your case that these are the same thing?


Because just being a member of some group without having actually committed a crime is a little dicey to go assasinate someone.

I don't think people are walking about with  "AQ" vests on like Biker MC's do.   A lot of thinks to think about here.   

And what is stopping them from applying the same law at home?   I really don't see much of the difference.   

Like I said - have a mickey mouse trial, present evidence before magistrate, put it on the record, make it legit.   

Hugo Chavez

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Because just being a member of some group without having actually committed a crime is a little dicey to go assasinate someone.

I don't think people are walking about with  "AQ" vests on like Biker MC's do.   A lot of thinks to think about here.   

And what is stopping them from applying the same law at home?   I really don't see much of the difference.   

Like I said - have a mickey mouse trial, present evidence before magistrate, put it on the record, make it legit.   
Yea, I agree with that... What the hell does that have to do with preemptive war aside from both policies being highly questionable?

Soul Crusher

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Yea, I agree with that... What the hell does that have to do with preemptive war aside from both policies being highly questionable?

Same thing - "we have to kill him, before he kills us" 

Skip8282

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Because just being a member of some group without having actually committed a crime is a little dicey to go assasinate someone.

I don't think people are walking about with  "AQ" vests on like Biker MC's do.   A lot of thinks to think about here.   

And what is stopping them from applying the same law at home?   I really don't see much of the difference.   

Like I said - have a mickey mouse trial, present evidence before magistrate, put it on the record, make it legit.   



Nah, better to hit them before they bring down an airliner, rather than wait for them to bring down the airliner, and then hit em.

Fury

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I'm torn on this. On one hand, we can take the retard approach and ask really nicely that they please turn themselves in from an area we can't get access to and all the while they laugh at us and continue on with their "jihad" or we can cap them and be done with it.


Soul Crusher

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I'm torn on this. On one hand, we can take the retard approach and ask really nicely that they please turn themselves in from an area we can't get access to and all the while they laugh at us and continue on with their "jihad" or we can cap them and be done with it.



I just think there needs to be some checks and balances on the executive.  Branch before capping people, whatever that might be if we are talking about us citizens.

240 is Back

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I just think there needs to be some checks and balances on the executive.  Branch before capping people, whatever that might be if we are talking about us citizens.

correct.   it only takes the stroke of a pen for bald white dudes in Slayer shirts protesting a stolen 2012 election to be labeled 'terrists'.

Soul Crusher

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correct.   it only takes the stroke of a pen for bald white dudes in Slayer shirts protesting a stolen 2012 election to be labeled 'terrists'.


LOL.   Nothing better than wearing my slatanic whermacht shirt in the Bronx NYSC and getting nods from brothers in the gym when I'm banging out reps at 315 on the incline. 

I wear another shirt that has an AR15 across the back and it says FREEDOM or SLAVERY - YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH

I wear that one and people stare too. 

Soul Crusher

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FBI director: Have to check whether targeted killing rule is outside US only.
Fox News ^ | March 07, 2012 | | Catherine Herridge
Posted on March 8, 2012 5:53:22 AM EST by carriage_hill

FBI Director Robert Mueller on Wednesday said he would have to go back and check with the Department of Justice whether Attorney General Eric Holder's "three criteria" for the targeted killing of Americans also applied to Americans inside the U.S.

Pressed by House lawmakers about a recent speech in which Holder described the legal justification for assassination, Mueller, who was attending a hearing on his agency's budget, did not say without qualification that the three criteria could not be applied inside the U.S.

"I have to go back. Uh, I'm not certain whether that was addressed or not," Mueller said when asked by Rep. Kevin Yoder, R-Kan., about a distinction between domestic and foreign targeting

Yoder followed up asking whether "from a historical perspective," the federal government has "the ability to kill a U.S. citizen on United States soil or just overseas."

"I'm going to defer that to others in the Department of Justice," Mueller replied.

Indeed, Holder's Monday speech at Northwestern University seemed to leave the door open. While Holder speaks of Americans who lead al Qaeda overseas, the implications of the speech seem broad.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...

Shockwave

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LOL.   Nothing better than wearing my slatanic whermacht shirt in the Bronx NYSC and getting nods from brothers in the gym when I'm banging out reps at 315 on the incline. 

I wear another shirt that has an AR15 across the back and it says FREEDOM or SLAVERY - YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH

I wear that one and people stare too. 
LOL. You remind me of my old drummer.

Soul Crusher

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Shockwave

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LOL @ the Marine Maj. General sitting behind Panetta. He seems.. unimpressed.

And LOL @ the fact that our admin doesnt give a fuck about congress, all they seem to care about is having the rest of the world tell us "Yeah, its ok to go fuck them up! Thumbs up guys!"

Why are we subjugating ourselves to other countries laws? Why are we bowing to some foreign Country for legal authority?!


When did we start bowing to foreign countries laws?

We are truely lost.

Soul Crusher

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This is what the communists like vince, blacken, straw, benny, et al want - a Mugabe like Dictator. 

blacken700

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can you imagine if some terrorist over seas which happen to be an american killed 500 americans and the CIA  knew  it was going to happen but they were waiting for court papers to arrest him.what do you think the far right loons would say to that

blacken700

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can you imagine if some terrorist over seas which happen to be an american killed 500 americans and the CIA  knew  it was going to happen but they were waiting for court papers to arrest him.what do you think the far right loons would say to that

Soul Crusher

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Can the President Kill You?
Townhall.com ^ | March 8, 2012 | Judge Andrew Napolitano






 Can the president kill an American simply because the person is dangerous and his arrest would be impractical? Can the president be judge, jury and executioner of an American in a foreign country because he believes that would keep America safe? Can Congress authorize the president to do this?

Earlier this week, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder attempted to justify presidential killing in a speech at Northwestern University law school. In it, he recognized the requirement of the Fifth Amendment for due process. He argued that the president may substitute the traditionally understood due process -- a public jury trial -- with the president's own novel version of it; that would be a secret deliberation about killing. Without mentioning the name of the American the president recently ordered killed, Holder suggested that the president's careful consideration of the case of New Mexico-born Anwar al-Awlaki constituted a substituted form of due process.

Holder argued that the act of reviewing al-Awlaki's alleged crimes, what he was doing in Yemen and the imminent danger he posed provided al-Awlaki with a substituted form of due process. He did not mention how this substitution applied to al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son and a family friend, who were also executed by CIA drones. And he did not address the utter absence of any support in the Constitution or Supreme Court case law for his novel theory.

The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution states that the government may not take the life, liberty or property of any person without due process. Due process has numerous components, too numerous to address here, but the essence of it is "substantive fairness" and a "settled fair procedure." Under due process, when the government wants your life, liberty or property, the government must show that it is entitled to what it seeks by articulating the law it says you have violated and then proving its case in public to a neutral jury. And you may enjoy all the constitutional protections to defend yourself. Without the requirement of due process, nothing would prevent the government from taking anything it coveted or killing anyone -- American or foreign -- it hated or feared.

The killing of al-Awlaki and the others was without any due process whatsoever, and that should terrify all Americans. The federal government has not claimed the lawful power to kill Americans without due process since the Civil War; even then, the power to kill was claimed only in actual combat. Al-Awlaki and his son were killed while they were driving in a car in the desert. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that the Constitution applies in war and in peace. Even the Nazi soldiers and sailors who were arrested in Amagansett, N.Y., and in Ponte Vedra Beach, Fla., during World War II were entitled to a trial.

The legal authority in which Holder claimed to find support was the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF), which was enacted by Congress in the days following 9/11. That statute permits the president to use force to repel those who planned and plotted 9/11 and who continue to plan and plot the use of terror tactics to assault the United States. Holder argued in his speech that arresting al-Awlaki -- who has never been indicted or otherwise charged with a crime but who is believed to have encouraged terrorist attacks in the U.S. -- would have been impractical, that killing him was the only option available to prevent him from committing more harm, and that Congress must have contemplated that when it enacted the AUMF.

Even if Holder is correct -- that Congress contemplated presidential killing of Americans without due process when it enacted the AUMF -- such a delegation of power is not Congress' to give. Congress is governed by the same Constitution that restrains the president. It can no more authorize the president to avoid due process than it can authorize him to extend his term in office beyond four years.

Instead of presenting evidence of al-Awlaki's alleged crimes to a grand jury and seeking an indictment and an arrest and a trial, the president presented the evidence to a small group of unnamed advisers, and then he secretly decided that al-Awlaki was such an imminent threat to America 10,000 miles away that he had to be killed. This is logic more worthy of Joseph Stalin than Thomas Jefferson. It effectively says that the president is above the Constitution and the rule of law, and that he can reject his oath to uphold both.

If the president can kill an American in Yemen, can he do so in Peoria? Even the British king, from whose tyrannical grasp the American colonists seceded, did not claim such powers. And we fought a Revolution against him.

blacken700

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can you imagine if some terrorist over seas which happen to be an american killed 500 americans and the CIA  knew  it was going to happen but they were waiting for court papers to arrest him.what do you think the far right loons would say to that

what would be coming out of your mouth