The biggest scam in Bodybuilding - BIGGER than the supplement scam!!

[wes]

well ........ i wanted to hypertrophy

found out it didnt work

so said if i cant hypertrophy let me at least get strength

ideally i want both like any sane individual who lifts weights

when u gain fat to gain muscle the same way u will lose muscle to lose fat, getbiggers agreed on this did they not? not sure.....

i wanted to ask u something by the way i saw this bicep tear thread the other day


so maxing out on preacher curls for sets of 5 is dangerous? should i stop this? i started doing this after watching that ct fletcher guy advocating "power curls", approach preacher curls like powerlifting he said....

now i'm scared of tearing my arms

Heavy preacher curls and probably deadlifts have been the cause of most biceps tears.

Of course,most guys cheat too much on preachers in order to use more weight negating the purpose of the exercise anyway,but this causes lots of injuries.

If you know how to train,you can make an 80 pound barbell feel a lot heavier than 80 pounds.

[mr.turbo]

Look way bigger.  Amazing how deceiving a ripped look can be.   I guess that's why I don't weigh myself anymore been 2.5 years.

looks about 5'10 to me 

[BIG ACH]

Look way bigger.  Amazing how deceiving a ripped look can be.   I guess that's why I don't weigh myself anymore been 2.5 years.

Yup, bodybuilding is all an illusion!  I still weigh myself but when you're on stage, how much you weigh means shit, its all about how you look!


Going back to the main topic, i'm not saying you should have no idea on what you are doing in the gym, sure have a plan, have a program even, that's all fine and well, but thinking that the latest rendition of German Monkey Balls training is the solution to all your problems is a great misconception!  If you are half assing your work outs, no program will solve that for you!

[DroppingPlates]

How about the latest Muscletech ad? I spit on it, glad I've never bought a product from them

[DroppingPlates]

Heavy preacher curls and probably deadlifts have been the cause of most biceps tears.

Agree and also add barbell rows with a reverse grip to that list. This caused Dorian's bicep tear. While he was pretty smart about training, he forgot that biceps aren't made for +400 pound rows.

[Psyckle]

Heavy preacher curls and probably deadlifts have been the cause of most biceps tears.

Of course,most guys cheat too much on preachers in order to use more weight negating the purpose of the exercise anyway,but this causes lots of injuries.

If you know how to train,you can make an 80 pound barbell feel a lot heavier than 80 pounds.

Exactly, I've always gained more muscle when I dropped the weight and slowed the movement down as opposed to increasing the weight causing other structures to take over.  You have to define your goal.  If you want to build lots of muscle, than who gives a fuck if your only curling 30's or 40's.  It works, thats all that matters.  I have no huge numbers to brag about, but I totally own the weight and make it look very smooth, and it packs it on.  Most ppl I talk to are always suprised when I tell them how "little" I bench or curl.  I always say, "Watch how I do it and you'll understand why"

[PJim]

I disagree....  I think "overtraining" is the most over used word in bodybuilding!  If you're eating well, getting enough calories, its very hard to "overtrain"


To each their own, but I'm talking about what I've experienced!

Wrong, wrong, wrong..on many levels.
Let me break it down for you. "Overtraining" BEGINS to occur when one does any more work than required to stimulate the growth mechanism. The STATE of being "overtrained" itself comes down to "overtraining" enough to actually show noticeable, physical symptoms...i.e.lack of appetite, lack of improvement, losing size and strength, changes in mood etc the list goes on and on.

You CANNOT, I repeat, you CANNOT use Calories or Diet in general for that matter to combat this in the short term, which is what most attempt and fail to do, you'll simply get fat.
Let's talk hypothetically; Let's say the trainer is a natural and let's say you've trained and you've stimulated the growth of 1 pound of muscle. I don't know the exact amount of protein contained within a pound of muscle off the top of my head, nor do I know how much additional protein is needed to aid in the process (i.e.enzymes etc). For the sake of argument let's say that figure is X. Your body can only assimilate and use so much protein at any one time, so force feeding protein well beyond the needs of X and the rate at which it can be used is useless anyway. In conclusion, combating overtraining with more and more calories over the requirement won't force your body to heal and improve any quicker than it already would have.

[jprc10]

Wrong, wrong, wrong..on many levels.
Let me break it down for you. "Overtraining" BEGINS to occur when one does any more work than required to stimulate the growth mechanism. The STATE of being "overtrained" itself comes down to "overtraining" enough to actually show noticeable, physical symptoms...i.e.lack of appetite, lack of improvement, losing size and strength, changes in mood etc the list goes on and on.

You CANNOT, I repeat, you CANNOT use Calories or Diet in general for that matter to combat this in the short term, which is what most attempt and fail to do, you'll simply get fat.
Let's talk hypothetically; Let's say the trainer is a natural and let's say you've trained and you've stimulated the growth of 1 pound of muscle. I don't know the exact amount of protein contained within a pound of muscle off the top of my head, nor do I know how much additional protein is needed to aid in the process (i.e.enzymes etc). For the sake of argument let's say that figure is X. Your body can only assimilate and use so much protein at any one time, so force feeding protein well beyond the needs of X and the rate at which it can be used is useless anyway. In conclusion, combating overtraining with more and more calories over the requirement won't force your body to heal and improve any quicker than it already would have.

LOL, ok Mike Mentzer. 

[dj181]

so if you can bench press 185 pounds for 3 sets of 10 reps and you just stay there you'll end up getting bigger and fuller muscles eventually?

[PJim]

LOL, ok Mike Mentzer. 

Put aside Mentzer. Am I wrong?

[hematocritter]

Nubret and the golden age guys just did set after set after set, and they didn't overtrain.
I realize they were the genetic elite and on boatloads of AAS, but it does prove to me
that you don't have to do low volume, strength based training for hypertrophy.

I think you need to be moderately strong before volume training becomes beneficial, but I
think a mixture of the two is best.... some strength work and some volume work covers all
bases.
Train heavy on the compound lifts, then volume with higher reps on isolation lifts.

[Jaime]

it is possible but a bad idea

most people dont have enough anger to do it i believe but if you have excess anger it is possible
 but not a good idea

should probably cycle the intensity somehow

I train to failure every set. Yes, i am an agressive person.

How do you know when your cns is fried?

My strength always goes up, i feel tired and stuff a lot but i had that since i was a kid.

[jprc10]

Put aside Mentzer. Am I wrong?

In my opinion yes you're wrong, but it is only my opinion. You on the other hand, are trying to pass your opinion (which is regurgitated Mentzer crap) as fact, arrogantly at that. There are no black & white answers, there is no best way to train, there is no way you can say you'll overtrain by doing x amount more work.

But please, feel free to explain how do we know when we've done enough to "stimulate the growth mechanism". I know I know, one set to failure right?

[BIG ACH]

Wrong, wrong, wrong..on many levels.
Let me break it down for you. "Overtraining" BEGINS to occur when one does any more work than required to stimulate the growth mechanism. The STATE of being "overtrained" itself comes down to "overtraining" enough to actually show noticeable, physical symptoms...i.e.lack of appetite, lack of improvement, losing size and strength, changes in mood etc the list goes on and on.

You CANNOT, I repeat, you CANNOT use Calories or Diet in general for that matter to combat this in the short term, which is what most attempt and fail to do, you'll simply get fat.
Let's talk hypothetically; Let's say the trainer is a natural and let's say you've trained and you've stimulated the growth of 1 pound of muscle. I don't know the exact amount of protein contained within a pound of muscle off the top of my head, nor do I know how much additional protein is needed to aid in the process (i.e.enzymes etc). For the sake of argument let's say that figure is X. Your body can only assimilate and use so much protein at any one time, so force feeding protein well beyond the needs of X and the rate at which it can be used is useless anyway. In conclusion, combating overtraining with more and more calories over the requirement won't force your body to heal and improve any quicker than it already would have.

This is exactly what i'm taking about regarding over complicating shit!


First of all I never said go and over consumer protein or calories.  I said if you're eating well and eating enough, and getting plenty of rest, then its very hard to over train!

Your body is not some delicate flower, don't be afraid to push it and challenge it!  Regardless of whether you're training heavy or light, you can still be intense!

[PJim]

In my opinion yes you're wrong, but it is only my opinion. You on the other hand, are trying to pass your opinion (which is regurgitated Mentzer crap) as fact, arrogantly at that. There are no black & white answers, there is no best way to train, there is no way you can say you'll overtrain by doing x amount more work.

But please, feel free to explain how do we know when we've done enough to "stimulate the growth mechanism". I know I know, one set to failure right?

There is a best way to train for each individual and that means manipulating the variables to that individual (I am not saying it is easy to do! Yes, there are more than one way to skin a cat, but some are more economic than others!). What I am saying is that there are certain factors that we have little or no part in controlling and that trying to overcome it with something like diet is something that is very common in the bodybuilding/training circles. I'm studying exercise science etc at the moment so I am overly passionate about this and probably get a bit matter of fact like.

[dustin]

If you're even cognizant about the mind muscle connection and train to stimulate your muscles with a weight that challenges you (balancing things out between not lifting with your ego but also not lifting a pussy weight) then you're already so far ahead of the pack we don't even need to have this discussion. Add drugs to the mix and we should have stopped talking about this a long time ago.

I never really dabbled around with many training "styles" but took what worked for me and just patiently watched what happened. I don't know why or how people can spend years lifting and not make any progress... I mean, I know that shit takes a long time to change but you have to be dumber than a roll of fucking toilet paper to keep plugging away and making no changes. 90% of the people in my gym don't ever change year after year and I wonder what the fuck compels them to even go to the gym lol

The training style you use will only make a marginal different. I don't believe in cookie cutter designs, just do what works for YOU because if you're not employing these training styles correctly to begin with then that's another humongous variable that makes it even more impossible to compare anything.

I'll note one thing though, the DC training programs are really good for building strength. Anything with structure and consistency will give you results, but DC training is really good for building strength. I'll give liar Danta that. I did that kind of training for a while and then my log book got soaked and I said fuck it. I got strong as fuck though but after a while I realized that dangerously heavy lifting is the absolute wrong direction to take your training.

[jprc10]

There is a best way to train for each individual and that means manipulating the variables to that individual (I am not saying it is easy to do! Yes, there are more than one way to skin a cat, but some are more economic than others!). What I am saying is that there are certain factors that we have little or no part in controlling and that trying to overcome it with something like diet is something that is very common in the bodybuilding/training circles. I'm studying exercise science etc at the moment so I am overly passionate about this and probably get a bit matter of fact like.

Fair enough, but how can you say there is a best way and then say it is all dependent on the individual? Then there is no best way if it varies so much from person to person.I mean, there is no best way because it is all individual, it is about finding the best way for you.
About diet, plenty of people need more volume of work to grow and obviously expend more calories doing that amount of volume, so by eating more calories they are replenishing all they lost. What would happen if they didn't eat more? They'd feel "overtrained" due to not consuming enough to cover their training.

No disrespect, but exercise science is good for sports athlete training, performance, etc. Here we are talking bodybuilding..do you really think science and studies are needed to train for muscle growth, bbing? I have to disagree.

[PJim]

This is exactly what i'm taking about regarding over complicating shit!


First of all I never said go and over consumer protein or calories.  I said if you're eating well and eating enough, and getting plenty of rest, then its very hard to over train!

Your body is not some delicate flower, don't be afraid to push it and challenge it!  Regardless of whether you're training heavy or light, you can still be intense!

ng
This I agree with. Your body isn't a delicate flower by any means, but it is fine-tuned and it doesn't have an unlimited ability to handle anything and everything you throw at it. I may be overcomplicating things, but we are surrounded by an industry that puts out so much blatant bullshit, stark statements without the evidence, i.e. the supplement industry and the muscle magazines that I see red when people are frowned upon for trying to apply physiology/biology to it.

[PJim]

Fair enough, but how can you say there is a best way and then say it is all dependent on the individual? Then there is no best way if it varies so much from person to person.I mean, there is no best way because it is all individual, it is about finding the best way for you.
About diet, plenty of people need more volume of work to grow and obviously expend more calories doing that amount of volume, so by eating more calories they are replenishing all they lost. What would happen if they didn't eat more? They'd feel "overtrained" due to not consuming enough to cover their training.

No disrespect, but exercise science is good for sports athlete training, performance, etc. Here we are talking bodybuilding..do you really think science and studies are needed to train for muscle growth, bbing? I have to disagree.

Along with some other areas of study, very much so! I think if applied and studied properly it is very useful.

With regards to your previous paragraph, I make such bold statements because we are all so alike. Yes, we vary here or there across the whole of mankind, and yes you get your rare exceptions who even at a genetic level either do not work the same or miss certain characteristics that we would know as "normal". I think a certain amount of generalisation has to be made as most people are so similar and then the real odd ones out can be tailored for after. I still don't think that changes the fact that we should be trying to find a generally sound/productive way of training for the average person even if we do have some variance at either end of the scale and dotted across.

[Psyckle]

Nubret and the golden age guys just did set after set after set, and they didn't overtrain.
I realize they were the genetic elite and on boatloads of AAS, but it does prove to me
that you don't have to do low volume, strength based training for hypertrophy.

I think you need to be moderately strong before volume training becomes beneficial, but I
think a mixture of the two is best.... some strength work and some volume work covers all
bases.
Train heavy on the compound lifts, then volume with higher reps on isolation lifts.

See that's the problem when it comes to building muscle naturally.  Fuck this compound lift bs.  You have certain days for certain muscles, hence each lift/exercise your goal is ISOLATION.  Think about it, lets say monday is chest and your treating bench press as a compound exercise.  So you lift heavy and end up recruiting a lot of triceps and shoulders in the process.  Then shoulder day or tricep day rolls around, but since you went heavy on bench "compound style", those muscles are still repairing from the previous workout.  This is when the overtraining happens; you end up hitting the muscle more than intended.  As a result, chest lags behind because you were more worried about lifting heavy, and triceps and shoulders eventually become overtrained because they are being overworked.  Theres countless examples; forearms/front delts taking over for bicep curls etc.

[wes]

Here`s a good tip for guys who like preacher curls................... ......example weight being 100 pounds for 6-8 reps.

EXAMPLE:

If you are using 100 pounds for 6-8 reps,drop the weight to 75 pounds,do one rep,followed by one half rep about  duh.......halfway up.  

This 1 + 1/2 rep will count as one rep..................... .....controlled movement,stop at the top when you feel the contraction and squeeze,any further up and you lose the contraction.

Slow controlled negative.

Try to get a total of 8 reps counting each 1 +1/2 rep as one rep.

When the set is completed,do 3 more half reps from the bottom position,followed by 3 more half reps from the top position.

This way you won`t cheat,don`t have to go as heavy,and you don`t risk a torn biceps muscle.

Try these 1 + 1/2 reps ......they are fucking murderous trust me.

[wes]

Agree and also add barbell rows with a reverse grip to that list. This caused Dorian's bicep tear. While he was pretty smart about training, he forgot that biceps aren't made for +400 pound rows.

Yup!

[purenaturalstrength]

Heavy preacher curls and probably deadlifts have been the cause of most biceps tears.

Of course,most guys cheat too much on preachers in order to use more weight negating the purpose of the exercise anyway,but this causes lots of injuries.

If you know how to train,you can make an 80 pound barbell feel a lot heavier than 80 pounds.

what if i do controlled negative, lock arms completely straight for a second and curl up (straight bar)


what are the odds of tearing a bicep like this

[purenaturalstrength]

Put aside Mentzer. Am I wrong?

not at all, mentzer was right on many things

maybe his actual practical application was madness i dont know


but a lot of his general ideas are true


i said before


over training is more detrimental than under training see this graph

[wes]

what if i do controlled negative, lock arms completely straight for a second and curl up (straight bar)


what are the odds of tearing a bicep like this

I always lock out at the bottom to ensure getting a full stretch,but I never bounce the bar and use momentum to get it back up.

I used to do 120 pounds like this but get far better results these days using 80 pounds or so or on a machine or cable.