Author Topic: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb  (Read 5033 times)

randy841

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Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« on: March 21, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »
A 6'4"/6'5" 285lb guy one day was doing leg presses on the Smith Squat machine. A few common friends of ours suggested 'he (I) can do that and more. He was doing 8 plates aside'. He got a little offended by that and a little touchy, as i further pointed out i can add a lot more and do it metal to metal when he asked.

Anyways that aside, I suggested to him -- 'to fairly gauge strength let's do the 3 main lifts + the Smith Machine Squat and see who comes ahead'.

My stats
5'9.5" on a good day  ;D
226lb

My Lifts
Barbell bench press 275lb *5-6
Squats 395lb *6-8 (due to broken tendon in right knee,  i train with barbell squats on/off - even at that only with front squats at 2 plates - high side 2 plates and 2 10's aside) Front squat or smith machine squat i do it Olympic style only - that is below parallel with belt - no wraps.
Deadlift 1RM 475lb - i can do more. On clen/T3 - hard to push day in day out.
Leg Press 10 plates aside metal to metal *6 reps
Leg Press smith squat machine - max i can put is 12 plates aside * 4-6 reps - metal to metal.

Competitor (Huge and very muscular)
In the muscular department he has me beat in every way shape and form. But lifts not on his best day IMHO - even with the 60lb difference.
Bench Press 275lb * 5 (that's what i hear - never seen him do it. The day of trash talking he says lets do 4 plates now.  Told him i can't, but lets go above one step and lets do all 3 main lifts :D.
Squat - no idea - seen him do 2 plates. More like a 45 degree squat
Deadlift - no idea

Should the 60lb weight difference be counted? ???

What's the proper way to design this to keep it fair. ::)

haider

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 225lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 08:35:21 PM »
sounds like your ego got the best of you. Settle this with an apology and keys to your moms bedroom, jackass.
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BB

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 08:49:23 PM »
1 rep maxes, then figure % of bodyweight lifted. Whoever has the higher % on a lift by lift basis wins. That's how I'd do it.

BB

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 09:00:45 PM »
Or you could use the Wilks formula to figure the best lifter, It's used in Powerlifting to figure best lifter across weight classes -

http://www.marylandpowerlifting.com/wilks.asp .

Higher number wins.

It's a way to balance absolute strength which favors heavier lifters usually, and relative strength that favors lighter lifters.

wes

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 09:01:35 PM »
Of course the weight difference should come into play.

Here`s some info that may help you Randy......check them out when/if you get the time:

http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/Glossbrenner.htm

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=866

http://www.usawa.com/the-hoffmanpaul-formula/

basil

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 09:44:28 PM »
if his musculature is that much more impressive and his poundages are as you state, it's my guess that his form and motion/rep control is much more refined (i.e. better) than yours.

A 6'4"/6'5" 285lb guy one day was doing leg presses on the Smith Squat machine. A few common friends of ours suggested 'he (I) can do that and more. He was doing 8 plates aside'. He got a little offended by that and a little touchy, as i further pointed out i can add a lot more and do it metal to metal when he asked.

Anyways that aside, I suggested to him -- 'to fairly gauge strength let's do the 3 main lifts + the Smith Machine Squat and see who comes ahead'.

My stats
5'9.5" on a good day  ;D
226lb

My Lifts
Barbell bench press 275lb *5-6
Squats 395lb *6-8 (due to broken tendon in right knee,  i train with barbell squats on/off - even at that only with front squats at 2 plates - high side 2 plates and 2 10's aside) Front squat or smith machine squat i do it Olympic style only - that is below parallel with belt - no wraps.
Deadlift 1RM 475lb - i can do more. On clen/T3 - hard to push day in day out.
Leg Press 10 plates aside metal to metal *6 reps
Leg Press smith squat machine - max i can put is 12 plates aside * 4-6 reps - metal to metal.

Competitor (Huge and very muscular)
In the muscular department he has me beat in every way shape and form. But lifts not on his best day IMHO - even with the 60lb difference.
Bench Press 275lb * 5 (that's what i hear - never seen him do it. The day of trash talking he says lets do 4 plates now.  Told him i can't, but lets go above one step and lets do all 3 main lifts :D.
Squat - no idea - seen him do 2 plates. More like a 45 degree squat
Deadlift - no idea

Should the 60lb weight difference be counted? ???

What's the proper way to design this to keep it fair. ::)


Mawse

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 11:02:34 PM »
The smith machine squat is widely reguarded as the best guage of strength so you should see who can squat the most to 8" above parallel with knee wraps and a belt.

then give each other a reacharound in the locker room

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 11:11:50 PM »
Or you could use the Wilks formula to figure the best lifter, It's used in Powerlifting to figure best lifter across weight classes -

http://www.marylandpowerlifting.com/wilks.asp .

Higher number wins.

It's a way to balance absolute strength which favors heavier lifters usually, and relative strength that favors lighter lifters.

Didn't know about this.

Interesting way to gauge absolute and relative strength.

Tx BB

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 11:16:34 PM »
Of course the weight difference should come into play.

Here`s some info that may help you Randy......check them out when/if you get the time:

http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/Glossbrenner.htm

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=866

http://www.usawa.com/the-hoffmanpaul-formula/

We both debated that Wes. I too think since there is a such a big difference, it should come into play. After all strength is relative. With that 60lb, he may carry 40lb more muscle.

Tx for the links Wes - will have a look at them.
 

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2012, 11:27:51 PM »
if his musculature is that much more impressive and his poundages are as you state, it's my guess that his form and motion/rep control is much more refined (i.e. better) than yours.


If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it is a duck.

I will give credit where it's due.

That's black genetics for yaa. The gentleman's muscle shape and structure no matter what i eat, take, or train will always remain superior until the day i die. I think that remains a fact, as we can see in BB & in certain sports dominated by African Americans. However, the same cannot be said of strength.

Being predator animals that we are as humans. We all like to see where the upper limit is, whether we are bigger, faster, and stronger than thy neighbor.

I've lifted against others. Better shape and structure does not mean strength. Albeit, we are no competing athletes - just gym rats.

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2012, 11:28:46 PM »
you guys are both mediocre truenaturalstrength would own you prolly 60yo wes also.  Tbombz or 50yo coach or some one like that would flat out destroy you. Oh ya these guys are prolly green light to street fight truenaturalstrenght :D so go for it. Jason Genova used more weight is his videos

maybe if lucky you are in the pillowtalk bracket but you would own khofo at least at right now

WTF ...  ???

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2012, 11:37:52 PM »
Of course the weight difference should come into play.

Here`s some info that may help you Randy......check them out when/if you get the time:

http://www.worldpowerliftingcongress.com/Glossbrenner.htm

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=866

http://www.usawa.com/the-hoffmanpaul-formula/
them are reprints from a long time ago aren't they wes. DId you used to read them johna maccalum articles or what ever his name was i had a book a long time ago with all of them.

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 225lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »
sounds like your ego got the best of you. Settle this with an apology and keys to your moms bedroom, jackass.

Yes, ego gets to the best of us. That's human nature.




Schnauzer

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2012, 11:49:06 PM »
nobody is trying to own you, "randy", but seriously, who gives a shit if this guy can lift more than you? Focus on your workout instead of worrying about what someone else is doing. If you were using the proper intensity in the gym, you wouldn't even have time to talk about useless shit like "who's stronger, him or me?".

wes

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 01:44:34 AM »
them are reprints from a long time ago aren't they wes. DId you used to read them johna maccalum articles or what ever his name was i had a book a long time ago with all of them.
"Keys To Progress"  ................great old school nonsense, but the stories are cool. :D

May still have my copy or I sold it on E-Bay.......not sure atm.

wes

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 01:47:39 AM »
We both debated that Wes. I too think since there is a such a big difference, it should come into play. After all strength is relative. With that 60lb, he may carry 40lb more muscle.

Tx for the links Wes - will have a look at them.
 
No problem Randy.............bodywe ight is always a factor in a lifting contest,that`s why they have weight classes in Powerlifting and Olympic Weightlifting.

haider

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 225lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 08:02:38 PM »
Yes, ego gets to the best of us. That's human nature.

But now let's analyze you a bit haider. In every thread you respond to -- you go on ranting and bitching like the little bitch you are, as portrayed in your avatar.

Was your upbringing really that awful, where your mom locked you up while she whored to the needs of many men? Or did you just get hit in the head too many times by your abusive father?  :-\

If you got nothing constructive or of substance to say, why not STFU.   ???

Cut this high school shit a$$hole. And this applies to all the other a$$holes - to whom life revolves around owning other people on the internet.
just consider it an intiation to getbig, we pretty much are assholes here  :D My 'aggressivene' comments are not out of the ordinary for getbig-- you'll understand once you have drank the getbig fountain for long enough  ;)

have a good day.
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Twaddle

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 08:13:11 PM »
What's the proper way to design this to keep it fair. ::)

What's the proper way?  The proper way would be for him to tell you to go fuck yourself, and then go about his business.  If this entire story isn't fabricated, I can't believe he didn't slap the shit out of you for interupting his workout. 

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2012, 09:46:07 PM »
What's the proper way?  The proper way would be for him to tell you to go fuck yourself, and then go about his business.  If this entire story isn't fabricated, I can't believe he didn't slap the shit out of you for interupting his workout.  

Nothing is fabricated. Our common friends initiated this drama. We were both doing our own thing. He was training legs and me chest/shoulders.

The competition is pending. He wanted to do it then and there but only on bench and leg press. I said let's wait a few weeks and do all 3 main lifts + the Cybex squat machine.

I am just waiting for the knee with the broken tendon just to heal enough so i can start legs again. Still training but very light. Can't do leg extensions even with 30lb without it being painful. Then things are on.

P.S. Once i am done - the first bitch slap will come across your way Waddle.  ;D

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 225lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2012, 09:48:00 PM »
just consider it an intiation to getbig, we pretty much are assholes here  :D My 'aggressivene' comments are not out of the ordinary for getbig-- you'll understand once you have drank the getbig fountain for long enough  ;)

have a good day.

No worries bro.  :D

randy841

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Only the Strong Shall Survive An Ideal Beginning Strength Program
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2012, 10:29:34 PM »
This is a great read and very insightful (provided by Wes).

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/index.cfm?page=article&go2=866

Sid's workouts consisted of the three Olympic lifts'press, snatch, clean and jerk'and included power cleans, power snatches, snatch-grip high pulls, front and back squats, plus jerks from the rack if that lift was a problem. All of those with the exception of back squats fall into the category of high-skill exercises. You may not think the press qualifies, but it most certainly is a high-skill movement when you do it as a strength event. We did presses at every workout in order to perfect our form as much as our strength.

Workouts always started with the clean and press, mostly because the press was the first lift contested in meets. You did one clean, then five reps for the first three warmup sets, then followed that with five sets of three with the same weight; for example, 115, 135 and 155 for five, then five sets of three reps with 175. Next came either power snatches or power cleans done in the same manner, except you did fewer warmup sets for power cleans, since you'd already done quite a few cleans with the presses. On other days full cleans or full snatches followed the opening presses, performed with the same formula of sets and reps, three sets of five and five sets of three.

Sid's trainees did snatch-grip high pulls at least once a week, right behind the full movements or the power cleans and power snatches, three to five sets, depending on how you felt, with no warmup sets necessary. If you started showing signs of fatigue, you stopped at three sets. You followed the same pattern with front squats and jerks from the rack, and did back squats for sets of fives.

There were no fancy gimmicks' no partials, negatives, rubber bands or chains'just lots of concentrated work on full-range technical exercises. What made the program so effective was the progression. If you were successful with your five work sets at 175 on the press, your next press session would look like this: 115, 135 and 155 for five, then five sets of three with 180. Here are two key points that make it work:

1) You increase the work weight by only five pounds regardless of whether the previous five sets of three were easy. Keeping your increases small ensures that you establish a solid base.

2) This one is perhaps more important: If you fail on any of them, whether it's the third or the final set, you have to use that same amount of weight for your work sets the next time you press.

While that may seem like a simple, logical concept, it's extremely hard for competitive athletes to hold back, especially youngsters. They're anxious to pile on more weight, even when they're struggling with lower poundages. Having to succeed with every rep forces you to pay close attention to every set. Should you get sloppy on the second work set, taking it for granted, then you pay the price. It rewards success and penalizes failure, just as life outside the weight room does.

On more occasions than I care to admit, I stayed with the same work weight for a month, and it was very frustrating. I finally broke through and moved on ahead again. Had I cheated on the basic plan, which I could have done by training early, before Sid got there, I would have hit a wall and not been able to break through.

Since Olympic weightlifting is based to a large extent on technique, Sid was a stickler about form. If a jerk wasn't locked out properly, it didn't count. If you bent your arms too soon on a snatch or clean or rounded your back, the lift didn't count. You had to do the three Olympic lifts in strict accordance with the rule book. If there was a bet on, you had to be precise, with the three judges rendering the final verdict. That emphasis on technique gave us a distinct advantage in competitions because we knew if we locked the bar outside overhead, it would be passed.

As I indicated above, each session consisted of presses or jerks' and sometimes both' two pulling exercises plus front or back squats. We did no auxiliary work at all. We didn't need it. When I trained alone, I could go through the workout in an hour and 15 minutes, but in the Dallas Y weight room we often had eight lifters doing it, and that took longer. We learned to work fast, unloading and reloading for the next lifter expeditiously and leaving any socializing for after the workout.

We did the warmup set and the first couple of work sets quickly, with little rest between them. Then the pace slowed somewhat for the final work sets. Moving at a fast rate helps build a different sort of strength, and knowing how to do that is extremely useful if you ever plan to lift in a contest. On occasion you may have to follow yourself on the platform with only a few minutes' rest between attempts.

Sid's program proved to be perfect for any level of lifting, not just for beginners. Gerald Travis was a seasoned veteran, and he benefited from it. So did Sid. Three years after I started training with him, he won the Senior National Olympic Championship and became one of the few Americans who ever defeated the great Norbert Shemansky in his prime. And I continued to use his methods after I became a member of the York Barbell Club.

Since this is obviously a tribute to my first coach and friend Sid Henry, I'd like to mention what impressed me the most about his lifting. It was his amazing ability to handle big weights in a contest even though his lifts going into the meet were way below his expectations. The common routine for nearly every lifter prior to a contest was to work up to his starting poundages on Monday or Tuesday, then do token workouts one other day before the Saturday meet. One time we were getting ready for the Lone Star Invitational, which Sid promoted. He was spending a great deal of time and effort publicizing the contest, which took its toll on his training. At his final press workout on Monday he was really struggling, missing 305 three times before grinding up a rather ugly lift.

----------

In every gym, only a few ever practice these lifts i've noticed. They add tremendous power, size, and conditioning unlike the static movements - i.e. bench, squat, deadlift.

I do something similar every week when the knees are not acting up. Learned it back in the late teens from a former Russian Powerlifter (1970s). He did the main 3 lifts, but always practiced his clean and jerk. Early on this added tremendous power and size in short period of time (no juice), before i had to take about a 7 year lay off.

Coming back although it's never been the same, the lifts are still great to do. I incorporate the above lifts as well as the squat, deadlift, and bench.  I have even briefly trained with another Russian lifter (non competing) who practiced the clean and jerk and snatches exclusively to better hone the technique.

Now we have a Ukrainian Powerlifter who is the world champion in his class. He is around 86kg. Good to see how it's really done. I like to train for a bit of both -- BB and powerlifting. However, at the end of the day IMHO, strength is way more impressive than any bodybuilding competition.

His lifts
Deadlift 700lb+ (with suit)
Bench Press 405 (with suit)
Squat just under 600lb (with suit)

--------------

I am targeting for next year (no suit) with weight around 100-110kg.
Deadlift 585-600lb * 1RM
Bench Press 400lb * 1RM
Squat 500lb*1RM (this is on/off due to right knee tendon - for months i can train fine - then have to stop with the slightest irregular movement for months)

Also
Clean and Jerk 275-300lb (no facility - so can't throw weights around)

Currently on 2nd cycle 7th month - In cutting phase presently[Before tren it was Test/Eq/Dbol (used twice)]
200mg Tren E every 4/5th day
125mg Test E every 4/5th day (discontinued Eq last Saturday to lower Hematocrit levels)
.25mg Selegiline ed for the prolactin
.50mg EOD Arimidex
75mcg T3 ED
100-150mcg Clen ed

Adding Winstrol 50mg ed for 50 days starting this week - I hear great for power and strength. Ben Johnson used to train at the same facility. Research reveals his favorite cycle was Winstrol Depot for 3 weeks on 3 weeks off used at 50mg 3 * a week on training days. He would continue this throughout the year before competition. So let's see what the Winny can do for me, albeit the tabs. Ben used to play around with the 3 plates on the bench, 5 plates on the squat at around 200lb. This is late 90s and early 2000.

Dbol - used twice last year. Can't train on it due to debilitating pain & pumps in lower back and lower legs. Even test at 500mg weekly causes this pain. I know great for power - but can't use it anymore. Furthermore, this round of leaning down - keeping test dosage low. It's not as bad as dbol.


Sherief Shalaby

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »
A 6'4"/6'5" 285lb guy one day was doing leg presses on the Smith Squat machine. A few common friends of ours suggested 'he (I) can do that and more. He was doing 8 plates aside'. He got a little offended by that and a little touchy, as i further pointed out i can add a lot more and do it metal to metal when he asked.

Anyways that aside, I suggested to him -- 'to fairly gauge strength let's do the 3 main lifts + the Smith Machine Squat and see who comes ahead'.

My stats
5'9.5" on a good day  ;D
226lb

My Lifts
Barbell bench press 275lb *5-6
Squats 395lb *6-8 (due to broken tendon in right knee,  i train with barbell squats on/off - even at that only with front squats at 2 plates - high side 2 plates and 2 10's aside) Front squat or smith machine squat i do it Olympic style only - that is below parallel with belt - no wraps.
Deadlift 1RM 475lb - i can do more. On clen/T3 - hard to push day in day out.
Leg Press 10 plates aside metal to metal *6 reps
Leg Press smith squat machine - max i can put is 12 plates aside * 4-6 reps - metal to metal.

Competitor (Huge and very muscular)
In the muscular department he has me beat in every way shape and form. But lifts not on his best day IMHO - even with the 60lb difference.
Bench Press 275lb * 5 (that's what i hear - never seen him do it. The day of trash talking he says lets do 4 plates now.  Told him i can't, but lets go above one step and lets do all 3 main lifts :D.
Squat - no idea - seen him do 2 plates. More like a 45 degree squat
Deadlift - no idea

Should the 60lb weight difference be counted? ???

What's the proper way to design this to keep it fair. ::)


both of you are VERY weak in bench press!!.. i am 175 pounds and 5'7'' and can bench press 275 lbs for 10 easy reps!!..

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2012, 11:00:03 PM »
both of you are VERY weak in bench press!!.. i am 175 pounds and 5'7'' and can bench press 275 lbs for 10 easy reps!!..

I agree it's very weak. In fact, it sucks honestly.  

What type of cycles did you do to get up there?

BTW, that's a very nice differential - you are playing around with 100lb more than your BW. Ideally that's what i would like to do and more.

Sherief Shalaby

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2012, 02:01:01 AM »
I agree it's very weak. In fact, it sucks honestly.  

What type of cycles did you do to get up there?

BTW, that's a very nice differential - you are playing around with 100lb more than your BW. Ideally that's what i would like to do and more.

man i am a life time natural..

if you see the many videos and pics i posted before you can see how i look very natural.. my bench press may be kinda impressive for my BW but my DL is average and my squats is relatively weak..

randy841

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Re: Gym weightlifting challenge 226lb vs. 285lb
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2012, 11:44:24 AM »
man i am a life time natural..

if you see the many videos and pics i posted before you can see how i look very natural.. my bench press may be kinda impressive for my BW but my DL is average and my squats is relatively weak..

For a lifetime natty ... very impressive bro on the BP.

I guess we can't have it all.