Author Topic: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case  (Read 13705 times)

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2012, 04:58:01 PM »
again - there is zero evidence of who attacked who

I haven't seen any statement from someone who witnessed that and even if it were true it doesn't constitute proof of who was the aggressor

We've already discussed the alleged injury to his head and that (IMO) doesn't proof anything either

probably no point in going over the same ground again

Agreed. Ill just let you know where it came from.
My belief is that what was witnessed followed with the story followed with the injury. It adds up. Usually when someone just makes a story up out of the blue, it doesnt fit in with the evidence surrounding it.
The cut to the back of the head, the witness saying TM was on top of him hitting him, and the story that TM confronted him and then attacked him - usually the aggressor (with the element of suprise) will take the other man to the ground, which is again in line with the evidence. Unless Zimmerman was just a terrible fighter or a total idiot, I dont see Zimmerman attacking TM and then TM reversing it and beating the shit out of him that quickly.
Speculation on my part yes, but speculation within the evidence.

Straw Man

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2012, 05:10:32 PM »
Agreed. Ill just let you know where it came from.
My belief is that what was witnessed followed with the story followed with the injury. It adds up. Usually when someone just makes a story up out of the blue, it doesnt fit in with the evidence surrounding it.
The cut to the back of the head, the witness saying TM was on top of him hitting him, and the story that TM confronted him and then attacked him - usually the aggressor (with the element of suprise) will take the other man to the ground, which is again in line with the evidence. Unless Zimmerman was just a terrible fighter or a total idiot, I dont see Zimmerman attacking TM and then TM reversing it and beating the shit out of him that quickly.
Speculation on my part yes, but speculation within the evidence.

I might be more likely to believe Zimmerman story if there was an eyewitness to the beginning of the confrontation or the shooting

I have problem with the fact that Martin was running away

Why would someone run away and then turn around and run back and start a fight

that makes no sense to me

Also, you'd think the cops could figure out if Martin was shot while lying on his back as opposed to sitting on top of Zimmerman. 

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2012, 05:19:51 PM »
I might be more likely to believe Zimmerman story if there was an eyewitness to the beginning of the confrontation or the shooting

I have problem with the fact that Martin was running away

Why would someone run away and then turn around and run back and start a fight

that makes no sense to me

Also, you'd think the cops could figure out if Martin was shot while lying on his back as opposed to sitting on top of Zimmerman. 
Thats why I said Im pretty sure they corroborated that he was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot. I could be wrong however. Even if Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, thats still no crime - if he chased him down and confronted him, its still who attacked 1st, thats kind of why I think he's telling the truth, why would he lie about that? It wouldnt matter where he was at, it wouldnt matter if he chased him down the road of if Trayvon confronted him at his truck. Plus they should have been able to tell from distance to his truck from the shooting if he chased him.

Agnostic007

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2012, 05:20:36 PM »
Why are all you libs so desperate to paint this as unjustified.

I'm more than willing to agree that when the facts come out - Zimmerman may have committed murder.  But at least let the facts come out.

Wise position.

Straw Man

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2012, 05:22:02 PM »
Thats why I said Im pretty sure they corroborated that he was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot. I could be wrong however. Even if Zimmerman pursued Trayvon, thats still no crime - if he chased him down and confronted him, its still who attacked 1st, thats kind of why I think he's telling the truth, why would he lie about that? It wouldnt matter where he was at, it wouldnt matter if he chased him down the road of if Trayvon confronted him at his truck. Plus they should have been able to tell from distance to his truck from the shooting if he chased him.

I can think of one very obvious reason


Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2012, 05:25:27 PM »
I can think of one very obvious reason


Go for it. I cant imagine that if Trayvon attacked him, it would matter if he was standing by his truck or down the road. And again, I feel like the media would have pounced all over it if he had said he was almost back to his truck and the shooting occured way down the road from the truck.

Straw Man

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »
Go for it. I cant imagine that if Trayvon attacked him, it would matter if he was standing by his truck or down the road. And again, I feel like the media would have pounced all over it if he had said he was almost back to his truck and the shooting occured way down the road from the truck.

to avoid being charged with murder or homicide


Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2012, 05:41:02 PM »
to avoid being charged with murder or homicide


But its not murder or homicide if he followed and confronted Trayvon and TM attacked him, its only murder if Zimmerman attacked him. Zimmerman could very well have followed TM down the road, only to have TM attack him. (But like I said, Im pretty sure the media would have had a field day if the body was a long ways from the truck, so that part of Zimmermans story seems to add up.)
Could be that TM took off originally, and then decided to confront him after he saw Zimmerman use the phone.
All speculation, but it really does seem to match up with Zimmermans story more than any other option at this point.  :-\

Straw Man

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2012, 05:48:39 PM »
But its not murder or homicide if he followed and confronted Trayvon and TM attacked him, its only murder if Zimmerman attacked him. Zimmerman could very well have followed TM down the road, only to have TM attack him. (But like I said, Im pretty sure the media would have had a field day if the body was a long ways from the truck, so that part of Zimmermans story seems to add up.)
Could be that TM took off originally, and then decided to confront him after he saw Zimmerman use the phone.
All speculation, but it really does seem to match up with Zimmermans story more than any other option at this point.  :-\

and you asked why he would lie about it and that's your answer

to avoid being charged with murder or homicide

how far from the truck did the shooting take place?

Agnostic007

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2012, 05:49:43 PM »
But its not murder or homicide if he followed and confronted Trayvon and TM attacked him, its only murder if Zimmerman attacked him. Zimmerman could very well have followed TM down the road, only to have TM attack him. (But like I said, Im pretty sure the media would have had a field day if the body was a long ways from the truck, so that part of Zimmermans story seems to add up.)
Could be that TM took off originally, and then decided to confront him after he saw Zimmerman use the phone.
All speculation, but it really does seem to match up with Zimmermans story more than any other option at this point.  :-\

Let me kind of understand you, IF Zimmerman followed him, making it obvious he was following him, got out of his truck and confronted him and Trayvon, feeling himself being in a position of danger defended himself by physical means, you're okay with the deadly force response?  

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2012, 05:56:07 PM »
Let me kind of understand you, IF Zimmerman followed him, making it obvious he was following him, got out of his truck and confronted him and Trayvon, feeling himself being in a position of danger defended himself by physical means, you're okay with the deadly force response?  
Depends on the circumstances. If he confronted Trayvon and was simply asking questions (I.E. wasnt intimidating or threatening), then yes.
Obviously if he went at Trayvon with intent thats a little different. But if thats the case, than IMHO this isnt self defense.

tonymctones

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2012, 06:03:56 PM »
Let me kind of understand you, IF Zimmerman followed him, making it obvious he was following him, got out of his truck and confronted him and Trayvon, feeling himself being in a position of danger defended himself by physical means, you're okay with the deadly force response?  
Simply talking to someone or asking them a question or two isnt reason to defend yourself physically...

If zimmerman attacked him then TM had every right to defend himself. Just like zimmerman had every right to go see what TM was up to if he looked like he was up to no good.

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »
Simply talking to someone or asking them a question or two isnt reason to defend yourself physically...

If zimmerman attacked him then TM had every right to defend himself. Just like zimmerman had every right to go see what TM was up to if he looked like he was up to no good.
I think he was referring more the the grey area of if Zimmerman followed him, got out of the truck and threatened him or Trayvon was worred that Zimmerman may be trying to mug him or hurt him. (doubtful juding from the 911 call, IMHO, seems more like Zimmerman had given up looking for him at the end of the 911 call.)

tonymctones

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2012, 06:13:58 PM »
I think he was referring more the the grey area of if Zimmerman followed him, got out of the truck and threatened him or Trayvon was worred that Zimmerman may be trying to mug him or hurt him. (doubtful juding from the 911 call, IMHO, seems more like Zimmerman had given up looking for him at the end of the 911 call.)
Well the thing is there is no evidence to suggest that he did threaten TM so why even bring it up?

I agree sounds like zimmerman took the advice from the 911 operator and was on his way back to his truck and was confronted himself.

I dont really blame TM thinking back to his age I might have done the same thing if I noticed a guy following me. That being said it wouldnt have made it right and if thats the way it happened zimmerman had every right to defend himself if he felt his life was in jeopardy.

240 is Back

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2012, 06:15:04 PM »
He lied, IMO, about "he looks to be on drugs and I just saw him pull soemthing from his waistband".   He said that shit so the police would arrive faster.  They would show up ready to blast, beliving there was some smacked-out nutjab waving around a gun.  Already he was lying to police because it served his desires.

Can we agree on that?  if you had ot bet your fcking life on it, would you say he probably *embellished* just a bit with the drama queen shit?  Yes or no.  

Skip8282

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2012, 06:16:39 PM »
Well the thing is there is no evidence to suggest that he did threaten TM so why even bring it up?

I agree sounds like zimmerman took the advice from the 911 operator and was on his way back to his truck and was confronted himself.

I dont really blame TM thinking back to his age I might have done the same thing if I noticed a guy following me. That being said it wouldnt have made it right and if thats the way it happened zimmerman had every right to defend himself if he felt his life was in jeopardy.



Been wondering myself...the agenda...

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2012, 06:19:05 PM »
He lied, IMO, about "he looks to be on drugs and I just saw him pull soemthing from his waistband".   He said that shit so the police would arrive faster.  They would show up ready to blast, beliving there was some smacked-out nutjab waving around a gun.  Already he was lying to police because it served his desires.

Can we agree on that?  if you had ot bet your fcking life on it, would you say he probably *embellished* just a bit with the drama queen shit?  Yes or no.  
WTF? We can all agree that what? He said "it looks like he has something in his hands" (Skittles), no where did he infer it was a firearm. That was you. He said "It was raining, and hes just kinda walking around, looking around, looks like hes on drugs". He was just telling the dispatcher what he was witnessing. YOURE the one putting intent into his words, thats what YOU hear. Not what the rest of us hear.

240 is Back

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2012, 06:22:12 PM »
zimmerman had a felony arrest for assault on a cop, and a domestic abuse charge.   Trayvon had no violent history.  

chemically, treyvon had no drugs in his blood.  Zimmerman had done state-ordered alcohol abuse classes and wasn't tested for BAC that night.

location-wise, zimmerman pursued treyvon for 2 blocks after hanging up - treyvon was almost home when he got shot.  zimmerman's house was on the other side of the complex.

the lead investigator woudl have charged zimmerman, if the police chief and state prosecutor hadn't rushed in to stop him.  ANyone wanna bet zimmerman's judge dad called the prosecutor that night?  ;)

Straw Man

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2012, 06:23:00 PM »
Been wondering myself...the agenda...

what "agenda' and by whom ?

240 is Back

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2012, 06:25:57 PM »
WTF? We can all agree that what? He said "it looks like he has something in his hands" (Skittles), no where did he infer it was a firearm. That was you. He said "It was raining, and hes just kinda walking around, looking around, looks like hes on drugs". He was just telling the dispatcher what he was witnessing. YOURE the one putting intent into his words, thats what YOU hear. Not what the rest of us hear.

actually, he said 3 steps - he has something in his waistband.  He is pulling it out.  He has something in his hand.  3 steps to drawing a weapon - textbook legal CCW shoot, homie ;)  That shit is all over the survivalist boards.  the gun nuts know it.  You detail the steps of him drawing so it's a legal shoot.  adding 'he looks to be on drugs' helps too lol.

he knew exactly what to say to have cops shot up in felony arrest mode.  you know it.  you can play naive and say "no, i think he really believed it" - then you have to tell us why this man would chase an armed high man two blocks into the darkness.  He woudln't.  

I just wish we could have a little honesty here.  I think the shoot was legal technicaly and zimmerman shouldn't be charged - but i do think he should be charged for being a lying fuck and do 2 years fo robstruction and lying to police.  he's making shit tougher for permit holders for 20 years, and good fcking luck getting stand-your-ground in the other 30 states after this ass-hat abused it.

Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2012, 06:26:37 PM »
zimmerman had a felony arrest for assault on a cop, and a domestic abuse charge.   Trayvon had no violent history.  

chemically, treyvon had no drugs in his blood.  Zimmerman had done state-ordered alcohol abuse classes and wasn't tested for BAC that night.

location-wise, zimmerman pursued treyvon for 2 blocks after hanging up - treyvon was almost home when he got shot.  zimmerman's house was on the other side of the complex.

the lead investigator woudl have charged zimmerman, if the police chief and state prosecutor hadn't rushed in to stop him.  ANyone wanna bet zimmerman's judge dad called the prosecutor that night?  ;)
Where are you getting this 2 blocks after he hung up? How do you know where he was when he hung up? Where was his truck? Have you even read the full transcript of the call? Where are you getting these locations when he couldnt even tell the dispatcher exactly where he was? Where are these facts coming from?

tonymctones

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2012, 06:27:20 PM »
what "agenda' and by whom ?

check the MSNBC thread about them editing the 911 call and youll have your answer ;)

240 is Back

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2012, 06:28:38 PM »
Where are you getting this 2 blocks after he hung up? How do you know where he was when he hung up? Where was his truck? Have you even read the full transcript of the call? Where are you getting these locations when he couldnt even tell the dispatcher exactly where he was? Where are these facts coming from?

nbc news showed the aerial map of the park today.  i'll look for the link.  they broke down each step of the call "i'm at the clubhouse, i'll meet you at the mailboxes"  They then showed where the body was found, two blocks away.  it was one block over from trayon's house.  zimmerman lived on the opposite side of the park and was at about the furthest point from his house.  The shot could have been heard at trayvon's house, easily.  I'll look for it.


Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2012, 06:28:58 PM »
actually, he said 3 steps - he has something in his waistband.  He is pulling it out.  He has something in his hand.  3 steps to drawing a weapon - textbook legal CCW shoot, homie ;)  That shit is all over the survivalist boards.  the gun nuts know it.  You detail the steps of him drawing so it's a legal shoot.  adding 'he looks to be on drugs' helps too lol.

he knew exactly what to say to have cops shot up in felony arrest mode.  you know it.  you can play naive and say "no, i think he really believed it" - then you have to tell us why this man would chase an armed high man two blocks into the darkness.  He woudln't.  

I just wish we could have a little honesty here.  I think the shoot was legal technicaly and zimmerman shouldn't be charged - but i do think he should be charged for being a lying fuck and do 2 years fo robstruction and lying to police.  he's making shit tougher for permit holders for 20 years, and good fcking luck getting stand-your-ground in the other 30 states after this ass-hat abused it.
No he didnt. He said "He has his hands in his waistband" No where did he say he was pulling something out. Jesus fucking christ dude.

Heres a hint - this is the call

Quote
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

911 dispatcher:

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

911 dispatcher:

He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:

Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]

911 dispatcher:

OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:

That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher:

He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.[1:03]

911 dispatcher:

How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:

He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.911 dispatcher:

Late teens?

Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.

He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

911 dispatcher:

Let me know if he does anything, OK?

Zimmerman:

OK.


Shockwave

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Re: Actual Known Facts in Trayvon Martin case
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2012, 06:31:59 PM »
When you read the whole transcript in context without inferencing your own shit - it looks an awful lot like he's just describing the dude, what he's wearing, how he looks, and what he's carrying.
Youre the one 240 that keeps putting in shit like "He was pulling something out of his waistband, he was trying to make it seem like he had a gun"