Where did sin come from?

[Mr. Magoo]

I'm not going to put much effort into this post for time restraints, but...

..where did sin come from? Most say Eve eating the fruit. But the Devil lied and tried to manipulate Eve, and that is a sin, so sin had to exist before Adam or Eve partook of the fruit. Some people believe (Not in the Bible I don't think...) that Satan was jealous of God's power and that's why he was thrown out of Heaven (I think this came from Dante, I'm not up on my literature). So if that was true, sin had to exist then.

I'll let a few respond before I go much further

So where did sin come from?

[Butterbean]

I believe it began w/Lucifer (Satan) and his free will choices.

Eze 28:12b - 17
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
   full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
   the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
   carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
   topaz, onyx and jasper,
   lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
   on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
   for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
   you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
   from the day you were created
   till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
   you were filled with violence,
   and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
   and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
   from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
   on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
   because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
   I made a spectacle of you before kings.

[Necrosis]

I believe it began w/Lucifer (Satan) and his free will choices.

Eze 28:12b - 17
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
   full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
   the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
   carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
   topaz, onyx and jasper,
   lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
   on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
   for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
   you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
   from the day you were created
   till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
   you were filled with violence,
   and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
   and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
   from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
   on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
   because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
   I made a spectacle of you before kings.

so then who created sin or the tangential concept we have of it now? it seems your passage suggests the devil found something indicating it previously existed. So the devil had this potential, who created this potential, or is " sin" something that merely exists on another plane which was first accessed by the devil?

clearly and logically if the devil found the capacity for evil then it pre-dates him, if god is the creator of all, then god created sin. This is only logical and your passage clearly supports my position as literally read.

[loco]

so then who created sin or the tangential concept we have of it now? it seems your passage suggests the devil found something indicating it previously existed. So the devil had this potential, who created this potential, or is " sin" something that merely exists on another plane which was first accessed by the devil?

clearly and logically if the devil found the capacity for evil then it pre-dates him, if god is the creator of all, then god created sin. This is only logical and your passage clearly supports my position as literally read.

Interesting thread, and very good questions and good points.  I do not know the answer, and there can be many different theories.

The Bible says that God is eternal, and the Bible says that God is good.  Therefore, it seems like good would be eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

It has been said that good cannot exist without evil.  If that is true, and if good is eternal, then it would seem that evil is eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

[Necrosis]

Interesting thread, and very good questions and good points.  I do not know the answer, and there can be many different theories.

The Bible says that God is eternal, and the Bible says that God is good.  Therefore, it seems like good would be eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

It has been said that good cannot exist without evil.  If that is true, and if good is eternal, then it would seem that evil is eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

evil and good are feelings which are relative, we can understand them due to polarity, however, i can imagine good without evil. I can envision a world free of suffering, i value suffering but i still see it as something which need not exist if i was all powerful.

However, your suggestion that evil and good predate or exist alongside god is unarguable really. I can't rebutt it as it's purely conjecture and i don't see how color, sadness etc can't likely be eternal. Also, the one thing you point out is that god is not all powerful, being all good i cannot fathom how he could allow evil if he could stop it. That's like saying you are a good person then return to work at auschwitz for routine rape and kill. It makes no sense, if he is standing by then he doesn't deserve praise he is impotent to me and if he can stop it and won't then he is not all good and if he cannot stop evil then he isn't allpowerful, in fact that logical conclusion is that evil is in fact more powerful.

logic and the argument for god will never co-exist by the very nature of what we are talking about. I can accept that something advanced has a bigger picture in mind, but if i could stop my dog from suffering with my superior intellect and power i would, to not seems evil.

[loco]

Also, the one thing you point out is that god is not all powerful, being all good i cannot fathom how he could allow evil if he could stop it.

I did not point that out, you did.  I believe that God is both good and all powerful.  He can be, and He is both.

I have seen your argument before:

"If God is good and all powerful, then why does God not stop evil?  Therefore it must follow that God is either not good or God is not all powerful."  

That is a fallacy, as if that were the only possible explanation or the only possible answer.

[Mr. Magoo]

I did not point that out, you did.  I believe that God is both good and all powerful.  He can be, and He is both.

I have seen your argument before:

"If God is good and all powerful, then why does God not stop evil?  Therefore it must follow that God is either not good or God is not all powerful."  

That is a fallacy, as if that were the only possible explanation or the only possible answer.

No, it's not. I've posted an article on the problem of evil on this forum before but it never got any replies to it. The only two people who replied said "i'll read it later and reply", but never did.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=388227.0

[Mr. Magoo]

Interesting thread, and very good questions and good points.  I do not know the answer, and there can be many different theories.

The Bible says that God is eternal, and the Bible says that God is good.  Therefore, it seems like good would be eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

It has been said that good cannot exist without evil.  If that is true, and if good is eternal, then it would seem that evil is eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

False. God is good without evil and he has free will, right? And he exists. Heaven is a place where there is good, no evil, and free will, right? Heaven exists. Those 3 (bold part above=1, two listed in this reply=2) beliefs cannot consistently be held.

For a longer discussion on this point, see the article in that thread I linked to in my previous post.

[Mr. Magoo]

Interesting thread, and very good questions and good points.  I do not know the answer, and there can be many different theories.

The Bible says that God is eternal, and the Bible says that God is good.  Therefore, it seems like good would be eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

It has been said that good cannot exist without evil.  If that is true, and if good is eternal, then it would seem that evil is eternal as well, having no beginning and having no creator.

I feel like arguing for the next minute or so, so I'll respond once more 

"God is good"

Time to revisit some Plato lol. Is God good because 1) whatever he does, it will be good? Or is God good because  2) he does good (and only good) things?

Now, I think most christians believe #1. (you might not). Whatever God chooses to do, it will be good. If God ordered tomorrow that it is morally good to kick babies, then beginning tomorrow it will be morally good to kick babies. Morality is dependent on God's will. BUT: This presents a problem. If whatever God chooses to do will automatically be good, then why praise him? Anything he does will automatically be good, he cannot not do good, so why praise him doing good? ALSO, some people react a little hastily to the "if God said tomorrow that kicking babies is morally good, then it would be morally good" and they reply "But God would never do that", which takes us to #2

Some people believe God is good because he does good things. God would never say that kicking babies is morally good because, quite simply, doing that is NOT morally good and God wouldnt ever do something not morally good. BUT this also presents a problem. This implies a morality that is INDEPEDENT of God's will (contrast with #1 above). In this sense, there is "good" and all of God's actions fit under that title. But if this is the case, then God isn't the source of all things (in this case: the source of good) and therefore not all creating. (A similar thing is usually said about the statement "God loves.." because to say that God has the attribute of 'love' implies that 'love' exists independent of God. Though this may be true of me and you, love cannot exist independently of the person who created love., etc)

[Man of Steel]

No, it's not. I've posted an article on the problem of evil on this forum before but it never got any replies to it. The only two people who replied said "i'll read it later and reply", but never did.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=388227.0

As one of the two that replied before I actually told you I've studied most of this previously, that I would read your article in more detail later on (which I did) and I responded right then....thx!!!

[loco]

False. God is good without evil and he has free will, right? And he exists. Heaven is a place where there is good, no evil, and free will, right? Heaven exists. Those 3 (bold part above=1, two listed in this reply=2) beliefs cannot consistently be held.

For a longer discussion on this point, see the article in that thread I linked to in my previous post.

You say it is false, but you did not tell me why it is false.  I do not know whether or not this is false.  But you just did not make any sense.

Wasn't Lucifer in Heaven until he was expelled?

Does Lucifer not appear before the presence of God from time to time?

Is Lucifer not evil?  Does Lucifer not exist?  Does evil not exist?

[Man of Steel]

You say it is false, but you did not tell me why it is false.  I do not know whether or not this is false.  You just did not make any sense.

Wasn't Lucifer in Heaven until he was expelled?

Does Lucifer not appear before the presence of God from time to time?

Is Lucifer not evil?  Does Lucifer not exist?  Does evil not exist?

You're required to read the article in order to unravel the mysteries behind the problem of evil.  Everything one needs is contained in said article.   You must study the article, absorb it and then you can discuss it here.  Although before any discussions can truly begin you must first ensure that all the answers you seek aren't already contained in "the article".  Any questions directed at Mr. Magoo concerning his opinion on the problem of evil will be referred to "the article".  Mr. Magoo is "the article" and "the article" is Mr. Magoo...."the article" and Mr. Magoo are one.  

If this is unclear please consult "the article".

[loco]

You're required to read the article in order to unravel the mysteries behind the problem of evil.  Everything one needs is contained in said article.   You must study the article, absorb it and then you can discuss it here.  Although before any discussions can truly begin you must first ensure that all the answers you seek aren't already contained in "the article".  Any questions directed at Mr. Magoo concerning his opinion on the problem of evil will be referred to "the article".  Mr. Magoo is "the article" and "the article" is Mr. Magoo...."the article" and Mr. Magoo are one.  

If this is unclear please consult "the article".

LOL     

[Mr. Magoo]

You say it is false, but you did not tell me why it is false.  I do not know whether or not this is false.  But you just did not make any sense.

I thought I made this clear in my previous answer, but I'll try better.

3 Beliefs that can be held. (But cannot all be true at once)
1. Good cannot exist without evil. For any object x, if it exists and it is good, then evil must be present in it. (∀x)(Gx>Ex) where Gx= x has the property of good, Ex= x has the property of evil (Simple Translation= All G's are E's/Everything that is G is an E)
2. God exists, is good, and has no evil (∃x)(Gx & -Ex) (Simple translation= Something exists that is a G and is not an E)
3. Heaven exists, is good, and has no evil (∃x)(Gx & -Ex) (Simple translation= Something exists that is a G and is not an E)

#1 cannot consistently be held with either #2 or #3 (see the contradiction?). If you want to deny the conditional in #1 and say "well, some things can exist that are good with no evil" then you have to deny "good cannot exist without evil".  Now I think the best way to get out of it would be to deny the "in it" part in #1. But then an easy reply would be "Well fastfoward past the end times, when we are living in heaven with God and Satan is no more, then there is a time when there is no evil at all, yet good, so it is possible. If it's possible then #1 is false.

That is why those 3 beliefs (Numbered 1,2,3 for your convenience) cannot consistently be held, and why a possible reply to it is not adequate. I chose #1 because you mentioned it, I chose #2 and #3 because I'm pretty sure you believe those two.

Simple enough?

[loco]

I thought I made this clear in my previous answer, but I'll try better.

3 Beliefs that can be held. (But cannot all be true at once)
1. Good cannot exist without evil. For any object x, if it exists and it is good, then evil must be present in it.

I stopped reading right there.  Who said that in order for good to exist, evil must be present in it?     

Way to spin, distort and put words in people's mouth! 

[Mr. Magoo]

I stopped reading right there.  Who said that in order for good to exist, evil must be present in it?     

Way to spin, distort and put words in people's mouth! 

Shoulda kept on reading stud...

..

Now I think the best way to get out of it would be to deny the "in it" part in #1. But then an easy reply would be "Well fastfoward past the end times, when we are living in heaven with God and Satan is no more, then there is a time when there is no evil at all, yet good, so it is possible. If it's possible then #1 is false.

[loco]

Shoulda kept on reading stud...

..

Why would you even bring that up when I never said that I believe that for good to exist, evil must exist "in it"?  You sure love reading your own words and your own long posts.    

There is no time when "Satan is no more."  Satan, his demons, the anti-Christ and the false prophet will exist in The Lake of Fire for eternity.

[Necrosis]

Why would you even bring that up when I never said that I believe that for good to exist, evil must exist "in it"?  You sure love reading your own words and your own long posts.    

There is no time when "Satan is no more."  Satan, his demons, the anti-Christ and the false prophet will exist in The Lake of Fire for eternity.

why can't god destroy him/them? i don't understand why he wouldn't unless he cannot.

[Man of Steel]

I thought I made this clear in my previous answer, but I'll try better.

3 Beliefs that can be held. (But cannot all be true at once)
1. Good cannot exist without evil. For any object x, if it exists and it is good, then evil must be present in it. (∀x)(Gx>Ex) where Gx= x has the property of good, Ex= x has the property of evil (Simple Translation= All G's are E's/Everything that is G is an E)
2. God exists, is good, and has no evil (∃x)(Gx & -Ex) (Simple translation= Something exists that is a G and is not an E)
3. Heaven exists, is good, and has no evil (∃x)(Gx & -Ex) (Simple translation= Something exists that is a G and is not an E)

#1 cannot consistently be held with either #2 or #3 (see the contradiction?). If you want to deny the conditional in #1 and say "well, some things can exist that are good with no evil" then you have to deny "good cannot exist without evil".  Now I think the best way to get out of it would be to deny the "in it" part in #1. But then an easy reply would be "Well fastfoward past the end times, when we are living in heaven with God and Satan is no more, then there is a time when there is no evil at all, yet good, so it is possible. If it's possible then #1 is false.

That is why those 3 beliefs (Numbered 1,2,3 for your convenience) cannot consistently be held, and why a possible reply to it is not adequate. I chose #1 because you mentioned it, I chose #2 and #3 because I'm pretty sure you believe those two.

Simple enough?

Would you define evil for me?

[240 is Back]

its just how we're built.   what makes us improve/strive also makes us sin.

[B_B_C]

Sincinnati

[Man of Steel]

why can't god destroy him/them? i don't understand why he wouldn't unless he cannot.

God allows Satan loose in our lives so that we may choose to draw closer to or pull from God based on the choices we make.  God works within the context of our lives, the parameters we set and the choices we make so that our free will is kept intact.  Given the timelessness of God his perception of past, present and future in one state transcends our ability to comprehend.  That said, our desire to have God move in accordance with our desires is not part of our free will.  Our free will is out of scope in terms of his divinity.  Our desire for God to act now doesn't negate a single quality about God, but it does highlight our need to draw closer to God and his will while still preserving our own free will.  Its the Holy Spirit that works in our lives helping guide us, but those that refuse to acknowledge the Holy Spirit will never grasp this.

[avxo]

God allows Satan loose in our lives so that we may choose to draw closer to or pull from God based on the choices we make.  

Why do we have to choose? The "test" seems to be geared more for the benefit of God than anything else. Isn't God omniscient, and therefore, already knows what each of us will choose anyway? Why would an omniscient and omnipotent God go through such a ridiculous and laborious process?

God works within the context of our lives, the parameters we set and the choices we make so that our free will is kept intact.  Given the timelessness of God his perception of past, present and future in one state transcends our ability to comprehend.  That said, our desire to have God move in accordance with our desires is not part of our free will.  Our free will is out of scope in terms of his divinity.  Our desire for God to act now doesn't negate a single quality about God, but it does highlight our need to draw closer to God and his will while still preserving our own free will.  Its the Holy Spirit that works in our lives helping guide us, but those that refuse to acknowledge the Holy Spirit will never grasp this.

The idea of free will is incompatible with a basic attribute assigned to Christian God: omniscience. If God knows everything, he knows what you will choose at every step in your life, and so your choices are predetermined. Indeed, this is stated in the Bible itself. In Revelation it is explicitly stated in no uncertain terms that only those whose names were already known at the foundation of the world and recorded in the "Book of Life" will be saved and all others will be doomed (Rev. 20:15). If this is true, then you don't have free will, since your fate is decided. At best you have the illusion of free will.

But let's assume - for the sake of argument - that you have actual free will: in a way, this makes it worse than before. Assuming Relevation is true, then we know that only those whose names were entered in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world will be saved. REGARDLESS OF THEIR FREELY-CHOSEN ACTIONS. So it doesn't matter what you do and what you choose. Salvation is like a Publisher's Clearing House lottery: your ticket has already been issued, whether you know it or not. What's left is to wait and see if you get the prize.

[Man of Steel]

Why do we have to choose? The "test" seems to be geared more for the benefit of God than anything else. Isn't God omniscient, and therefore, already knows what each of us will choose anyway? Why would an omniscient and omnipotent God go through such a ridiculous and laborious process?


The idea of free will is incompatible with a basic attribute assigned to Christian God: omniscience. If God knows everything, he knows what you will choose at every step in your life, and so your choices are predetermined. Indeed, this is stated in the Bible itself. In Revelation it is explicitly stated in no uncertain terms that only those whose names were already known at the foundation of the world and recorded in the "Book of Life" will be saved and all others will be doomed (Rev. 20:15). If this is true, then you don't have free will, since your fate is decided. At best you have the illusion of free will.

But let's assume - for the sake of argument - that you have actual free will: in a way, this makes it worse than before. Assuming Relevation is true, then we know that only those whose names were entered in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world will be saved. REGARDLESS OF THEIR FREELY-CHOSEN ACTIONS. So it doesn't matter what you do and what you choose. Salvation is like a Publisher's Clearing House lottery: your ticket has already been issued, whether you know it or not. What's left is to wait and see if you get the prize.

Everyone's name was written in the book of life...we're all God's creations...he gave us life and recorded it.  Remaining in the book is our choice - we blot out our own names.   God's knowledge of our choices doesn't negate our ability to choose nor does it mean he chose for us...it just means he already knows.  God orchestrated and recorded life, he predestined his will through Christ, but he didn't predestine his creation to choose one way or the other...that would be a lack of free will. Why it's all that surprising that our finite, human abilities render limited philosophical conclusions in comparison to divine perception is what confuses me.   Why the "ridiculous and laborious process"?  Given the notion of a laborious process it's hard to deny we aren't allowed ample time to make a choice, but considered within the scope of a timeless, all-powerful creator I see the labor aspect dissolve and the ridiculousness transitioned into divine order (on a scale we can't fully grasp).  So often it comes down to our finite perceptions within the scope of time and God's divine, infinite perceptions in a state of timelessness or transcendence beyond the expanse of time.  Atheists and agnostics fully-informed of God and his will for us often make the choice to dismiss God as nonsense; it's unfortunate, but it happens.  

Revelation 13:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Revelation 17:8  New King James Version (NKJV)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.[a]


Revelation 20:15 New King James Version (NKJV)
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 3:3-5  New King James Version (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

[avxo]

Everyone's name was written in the book of life...we're all God's creations...he gave us life and recorded it.

Even if that's the case, it still has considerable implications for free choice. Were your parents free to get together and copulate so that you may be conceived and born, if your name was written in the book of life at the foundation of the world? After all, if they didn't get together at just the right time, you would have never been conceived. Were they free to get together if you were predestined to be born?

God's knowledge of our choices doesn't negate our ability to choose nor does it mean he chose for us...it just means he already knows.

If you really believe this, then you don't believe in free will. You believe in the illusion of free will. If there's only the illusion of free will, you aren't making choices - you're just following a script.

God orchestrated and recorded life, he predestined his will through Christ, but he didn't predestine his creation to choose one way or the other...that would be a lack of free will.

So were your parents free to not get together on that fateful night? Remember that either your name was written in the book of life at the foundation of the world or it wasn't.

Why it's all that surprising that our finite, human abilities render limited philosophical conclusions in comparison to divine perception is what confuses me.

I'm not surprised. What's surprising is your willingness to accept such a "divine perception" which turns everything on its head: able to know what you'll do, before you do it, without affecting your freedom to actually choose what to do.

Why the "ridiculous and laborious process"?  Given the notion of a laborious process it's hard to deny we aren't allowed ample time to make a choice, but considered within the scope of a timeless, all-powerful creator I see the labor aspect dissolve and the ridiculousness transitioned into divine order (on a scale we can't fully grasp).

Why even have a process at all? If God knows who will choose what, what's the point in even creating those who will choose wrong and will "fail" the test?

So often it comes down to our finite perceptions within the scope of time and God's divine, infinite perceptions in a state of timelessness or transcendence beyond the expanse of time.  Atheists and agnostics fully-informed of God and his will for us often make the choice to dismiss God as nonsense; it's unfortunate, but it happens.

Revelation 13:8 New King James Version (NKJV)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This, to me, very clearly states that all whose names have not been written in the Book of Life will not worship the Christian God. So, are those people free to repent and accept Jesus? After all, remember, their names aren't just "blotted" from the book of life. From the above it's crystal clear that they aren't in the Book of Life.

Revelation 17:8  New King James Version (NKJV)
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.[a]

Again, this says that the names of some people weren't written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So can those people repent and accept Jesus and be saved, even though their name wasn't added in the Book of Life at the time of the foundation of the world?