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Author Topic: Is Jesus' Sacrifice Forever?  (Read 2694 times)
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« on: June 21, 2012, 06:29:39 PM »

Let's accept the (just somewhat) controversial idea that Jesus was the son of God and that he did in fact die for our sins. Is this sacrifice forever in the sense that it covers all subsequent sinning? I'm not convinced that this is necessarily the case, for Jesus was after all sent down at a particular time and place. Maybe the sinning up to that point was covered.

Can it really be that Jesus' acts still cover the Holocaust and other such boundless depravity on the part of human beings? Perhaps after the Holocaust God retracted the "here's another chance at being saved" offer. Or, if it hasn't quite happened yet, perhaps the revocation will in due time (because the depravity surely will continue).

I know it's a part of the mythology that the offer will continue to stand. But I'm wondering, have any of you considered that at some point humans may become beyond "saving"?
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 07:09:30 PM »

Ive often wondered about this.
Pretty sure someone cant spend their life raping children and murdering people, and have it be covered. Just my .02.

Different people look at it different ways - but I cant imagine god giving a pass to someone that cut people up and wore their skin or continuously raped innocent children just because he accepted Jesus into his heart and prayed for forgiveness.

I think its more for people that TRY to live a good moral life (yes I realize morals hugely vary person to person, im speaking of the basic "dont kill, do unto others, yadda yadda"), but sin is just a part of their lives. (as it is with anyone).

I just cant picture some dude having sex out of wedlock, or drinking himself stupid once in a while, being judged on the same slate as some dude that slaughters hookers or some shit.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 07:24:21 PM »

No reason to kill hookers... They're already dead inside.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 06:33:37 AM »

A truly repentant person that believes in Christ as Savior is forgiven all of their sin, past, present and future.

1 John 2:1-2b
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...

Ive often wondered about this.
Pretty sure someone cant spend their life raping children and murdering people, and have it be covered. Just my .02.

Different people look at it different ways - but I cant imagine god giving a pass to someone that cut people up and wore their skin or continuously raped innocent children just because he accepted Jesus into his heart and prayed for forgiveness.

I think its more for people that TRY to live a good moral life (yes I realize morals hugely vary person to person, im speaking of the basic "dont kill, do unto others, yadda yadda"), but sin is just a part of their lives. (as it is with anyone).

I just cant picture some dude having sex out of wedlock, or drinking himself stupid once in a while, being judged on the same slate as some dude that slaughters hookers or some shit.

Personally I wonder if people like Hitler, serial killers and child rapists would ever become truly repentant.  I suppose it's possible, but those are some warped and twisted brains that don't seem to work like normal ones.

....Like a psychopath/sociopath you know?...They don't really even see some of the evil that they do as being wrong. 
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 07:01:19 AM »

A truly repentant person that believes in Christ as Savior is forgiven all of their sin, past, present and future.

1 John 2:1-2b
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...

Personally I wonder if people like Hitler, serial killers and child rapists would ever become truly repentant.  I suppose it's possible, but those are some warped and twisted brains that don't seem to work like normal ones.

....Like a psychopath/sociopath you know?...They don't really even see some of the evil that they do as being wrong. 

What bothers me, is that I dont believe some of them actually know what theyre doing is so wrong - they may actually believe they are attempting to live a good moral life, and pray for forgiveness of their sins, without actually thinking what they did was so horrible.
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 07:16:35 AM »

What bothers me, is that I dont believe some of them actually know what theyre doing is so wrong - they may actually believe they are attempting to live a good moral life, and pray for forgiveness of their sins, without actually thinking what they did was so horrible.


I guess I don't understand what you're saying?  It bothers you that they are praying for forgiveness or that they do so but don't mean it?  Or ?
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2012, 07:23:55 AM »

I guess I don't understand what you're saying?  It bothers you that they are praying for forgiveness or that they do so but don't mean it?  Or ?
No, im saying it bugs me that they have no idea that the atrocities they were committing were wrong.

They probably really believed they were living a moral life. (Some of them)
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2012, 07:41:49 AM »

Discusssed in a previous thread:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=192333.0
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2012, 10:25:38 AM »

Oh well, I don't see the harm in rehashing +bringing new elements into the discussion here, such as the status of all human beings before Christ. There's 200K years of human existence there; where did these humans go when they died? Did they cease to exist and then were retroactively revived and rewarded/punished? I think it might be unfair to do as such given that nobody had been told the message. Another mysterious aspect of all this is why God chose the particular time he did. What changed that suddenly made him decide to intervene after an extraordinary absence?

Plus, I still doubt that Jesus' actions could be forward looking: wasn't he explitily addressing human beings at that time? Why does this cover stuff like the Holocaust centuries later? If it does, it is a blank check to be as evil as possible and then repent near the end? Why would the creator invent such an exploitable system?
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2012, 08:20:01 PM »

A truly repentant person that believes in Christ as Savior is forgiven all of their sin, past, present and future.

1 John 2:1-2b
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...

Why would he need to atone in the first place?

The problem that I have, in principle, with the concept of sin and salvation is this:

God decrees that the wages of sin is death. God additionally decrees that nobody can ever atone for their sin. Since we assume that nobody is perfect and everybody sin, then everyone is screwed. But apparently, God loves us, and so he wants to save us (from the penalty that he decreed - let's not forget that), so he sends his Son (who is, also, himself in some incomprehensible way) to die and absolve us of our sins but only if we are willing to believe that the death of Jesus was for our own good.

Let's recap: God says that sin is bad and that the punishment of sin is death. But God loves us, so sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the punishment he himself imposed. Wha...? Really?! Who comes up with that? How is that sensible?

I've yet to hear a cogent answer on why this convoluted system of salvation needs to be in place, and why the God of love can't just forgive us all and be done with it.

In other words, why can't God just say: "Aww, shucks you guys. I love you so much, I can never stay mad at y'all. Tell you what, we're cool. Just, like, don't do bad stuff, k?"
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2012, 08:39:00 AM »

Why would he need to atone in the first place?

The problem that I have, in principle, with the concept of sin and salvation is this:

God decrees that the wages of sin is death. God additionally decrees that nobody can ever atone for their sin. Since we assume that nobody is perfect and everybody sin, then everyone is screwed. But apparently, God loves us, and so he wants to save us (from the penalty that he decreed - let's not forget that), so he sends his Son (who is, also, himself in some incomprehensible way) to die and absolve us of our sins but only if we are willing to believe that the death of Jesus was for our own good.

Let's recap: God says that sin is bad and that the punishment of sin is death. But God loves us, so sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the punishment he himself imposed. Wha...? Really?! Who comes up with that? How is that sensible?

I've yet to hear a cogent answer on why this convoluted system of salvation needs to be in place, and why the God of love can't just forgive us all and be done with it.

In other words, why can't God just say: "Aww, shucks you guys. I love you so much, I can never stay mad at y'all. Tell you what, we're cool. Just, like, don't do bad stuff, k?"

Apparently if you apply the salvation thing through out history, it may be 80 billion souls that are damned. 

Additionally, God is not a big happy loving teddy bear in heaven.  He's a petty vengeful killer from killing 42 rowdy teens with a bear to killing every man, woman and child on earth except for one family. 
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2012, 08:19:45 PM »

I see getbig has not changed one bit  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 09:13:54 PM »

Why would he need to atone in the first place?

The problem that I have, in principle, with the concept of sin and salvation is this:

God decrees that the wages of sin is death. God additionally decrees that nobody can ever atone for their sin. Since we assume that nobody is perfect and everybody sin, then everyone is screwed. But apparently, God loves us, and so he wants to save us (from the penalty that he decreed - let's not forget that), so he sends his Son (who is, also, himself in some incomprehensible way) to die and absolve us of our sins but only if we are willing to believe that the death of Jesus was for our own good.

Let's recap: God says that sin is bad and that the punishment of sin is death. But God loves us, so sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the punishment he himself imposed. Wha...? Really?! Who comes up with that? How is that sensible?

I've yet to hear a cogent answer on why this convoluted system of salvation needs to be in place, and why the God of love can't just forgive us all and be done with it.

In other words, why can't God just say: "Aww, shucks you guys. I love you so much, I can never stay mad at y'all. Tell you what, we're cool. Just, like, don't do bad stuff, k?"
This post was really funny  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 06:35:30 AM »

I see getbig has not changed one bit  Wink

Hustle Man!! Cheesy

Hope all is well w/you and yours.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 06:44:26 AM »

Oh well, I don't see the harm in rehashing +bringing new elements into the discussion here, such as the status of all human beings before Christ. There's 200K years of human existence there; where did these humans go when they died? Did they cease to exist and then were retroactively revived and rewarded/punished? I think it might be unfair to do as such given that nobody had been told the message. Another mysterious aspect of all this is why God chose the particular time he did. What changed that suddenly made him decide to intervene after an extraordinary absence?

Plus, I still doubt that Jesus' actions could be forward looking: wasn't he explitily addressing human beings at that time? Why does this cover stuff like the Holocaust centuries later? If it does, it is a blank check to be as evil as possible and then repent near the end? Why would the creator invent such an exploitable system?

The people that died before Christ came were saved by grace through faith, just as the ones after.  

Hebrews 11

 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

-------------------------------

I don't really understand your thought that Jesus' actions could not be "forward looking."  Seems like most people question how the people before He came were saved.  Are you saying you thought that you think that only the people who believed on Him during the time He lived would be saved (or right around that time)?

Grace is not a blank check for acting evil (if that is what you are saying).  

Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey —whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 06:55:00 AM »

Why would he need to atone in the first place?

The problem that I have, in principle, with the concept of sin and salvation is this:

God decrees that the wages of sin is death. God additionally decrees that nobody can ever atone for their sin. Since we assume that nobody is perfect and everybody sin, then everyone is screwed. But apparently, God loves us, and so he wants to save us (from the penalty that he decreed - let's not forget that), so he sends his Son (who is, also, himself in some incomprehensible way) to die and absolve us of our sins but only if we are willing to believe that the death of Jesus was for our own good.

Let's recap: God says that sin is bad and that the punishment of sin is death. But God loves us, so sacrifices himself to himself to satisfy the punishment he himself imposed. Wha...? Really?! Who comes up with that? How is that sensible?

I've yet to hear a cogent answer on why this convoluted system of salvation needs to be in place, and why the God of love can't just forgive us all and be done with it.

In other words, why can't God just say: "Aww, shucks you guys. I love you so much, I can never stay mad at y'all. Tell you what, we're cool. Just, like, don't do bad stuff, k?"

I'd also like if your last sentence could happen....but we're not going to not do bad stuff.  But you may say, why doen't He make us not do bad stuff?  Then where is free will? 

I know this means nothing to you or will seem like a cop out but why doesn't God always do things like we think He should?:

Isaiah 55:9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 10:45:38 AM »

I'd also like if your last sentence could happen...

No you wouldn't.

but we're not going to not do bad stuff.

Why not?


But you may say, why doen't He make us not do bad stuff?

No. I would't say that.


Then where is free will?

Where is free will in being born with the taint of Original Sin?


I know this means nothing to you or will seem like a cop out but why doesn't God always do things like we think He should?:

Isaiah 55:9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The fact is that the "plan" of the God, as outlined in the Bible boils down to: God decides that some acts merit the death penalty. While enforcing the death penatly, God wants to stop. So he sends himself to die in our place so that he doesn't have to kill us, but only if we believe that's what he did.

Since you can't justify this absurdity, you fall back to "god works in mysterious ways! hallelujah!". It doesn't just seem like a cop out; it is a cop out.
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2012, 10:54:35 AM »

My grandfather never EVER did anything bad... EVER.

Never cursed... was always nice... Was just the best guy I ever knew in my life.

EVERYONE who ever met him said he was ALWAYS like that... He wasn't just a christian... he was "CHRIST LIKE"
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 03:00:14 PM »

No you wouldn't.


Are you saying you mean I would regret it or that you have some type of special ability to read things in people's minds of which they themselves are not even aware?  Or are you just saying I'm lying?

If it's that you are saying that I'd regret it or that I'm lying, what is your reasoning for thinking so? 
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 04:04:53 PM »

Are you saying you mean I would regret it or that you have some type of special ability to read things in people's minds of which they themselves are not even aware?  Or are you just saying I'm lying?

If it's that you are saying that I'd regret it or that I'm lying, what is your reasoning for thinking so? 

I am saying that the sacrifice of Jesus is the central tenet of your religion. Would you really not want for that sacrifice to have been necessary?
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2012, 06:53:43 PM »

The people that died before Christ came were saved by grace through faith, just as the ones after.  

Hebrews 11

 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

-------------------------------

I don't really understand your thought that Jesus' actions could not be "forward looking."  Seems like most people question how the people before He came were saved.  Are you saying you thought that you think that only the people who believed on Him during the time He lived would be saved (or right around that time)?

Grace is not a blank check for acting evil (if that is what you are saying).  

Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey —whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Adam and Eve are historical fictions. Human beings have around 100-200 thousand years; if the grace and faith scheme was sufficient for their salvation (despite their not being such a thing as a Christian at the time), why change it and insist on a new scheme where one has to parochially swear allegiance to one Apocalyptic preacher in particular, a scheme in which God must kill himself?

I'm asking you - and any other Christians willing to participate - to think critically on these matters, not throw up Biblical passages. The Bible will not be of assistance when it comes to answering the most interesting questions, e.g., why God chose evolution via natural selection - the process that creates perhaps the most suffering of all the tools available and eliminates 99% of life over time. If you really cared about the implications of all this you ought to be a Gnostic, not a Christian.

At what point do you start to see how terribly unreasonable all of this is? I'm genuinely curious: what could possibly occur to make you change your mind about anything? I have a little list drawn up that, if fulfilled, would convince me that Christianity was probably correct. Do you have anything similar regarding its falsehood? The problem with many Christians is they have no such list: no such ability to hold beliefs contingently. And thus they'll pretend to have a critical discussion with you, during which the shoddy or non-existent reasons for being Christian are paraded out, and after which 'faith,' 'mystery,' and 'awe-inspiring feeling' are deployed to defend their belief from any further evaluation. In other words, the discussion is academic because the person is going to believe what they're going to believe regardless of the reasons under discussion! There's nothing comparable in science, logic, or philosophy, and this does not reflect well on religious belief.
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2012, 07:37:58 AM »

Adam and Eve are historical fictions. Human beings have around 100-200 thousand years; if the grace and faith scheme was sufficient for their salvation (despite their not being such a thing as a Christian at the time), why change it and insist on a new scheme where one has to parochially swear allegiance to one Apocalyptic preacher in particular, a scheme in which God must kill himself?


The people before Christ were saved by believing God...that He would (eventually) address their sin issue in HIs way so as to "wash them clean" so to speak.  They knew a Messiah was coming.  So Christ coming in the flesh was not a "new scheme."

One does not "parochially swear allegiance" to anyone to be saved...just believe.



At what point do you start to see how terribly unreasonable all of this is? I'm genuinely curious: what could possibly occur to make you change your mind about anything? I have a little list drawn up that, if fulfilled, would convince me that Christianity was probably correct. Do you have anything similar regarding its falsehood? The problem with many Christians is they have no such list: no such ability to hold beliefs contingently. And thus they'll pretend to have a critical discussion with you, during which the shoddy or non-existent reasons for being Christian are paraded out, and after which 'faith,' 'mystery,' and 'awe-inspiring feeling' are deployed to defend their belief from any further evaluation. In other words, the discussion is academic because the person is going to believe what they're going to believe regardless of the reasons under discussion! There's nothing comparable in science, logic, or philosophy, and this does not reflect well on religious belief.

I don't think I've ever thought about having a list that would convince me that Christianity was not correct.  If you were a Christian what would be on your list?


What is on your list (if you don't mind sharing) that would help to convince you that Christianity is correct?
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2012, 11:04:17 AM »

The people before Christ were saved by believing God...that He would (eventually) address their sin issue in HIs way so as to "wash them clean" so to speak.  They knew a Messiah was coming.  So Christ coming in the flesh was not a "new scheme."

One does not "parochially swear allegiance" to anyone to be saved...just believe.


I don't think I've ever thought about having a list that would convince me that Christianity was not correct.  If you were a Christian what would be on your list?


What is on your list (if you don't mind sharing) that would help to convince you that Christianity is correct?

I only have one thing on my list that says there is no God in the first place.

God lets little babies that have never EVER harmed another soul die... for no reason.

Anyone who lets that happen and has the power to stop it can get bent.
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« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2012, 08:01:33 PM »

The people before Christ were saved by believing God...that He would (eventually) address their sin issue in HIs way so as to "wash them clean" so to speak.  They knew a Messiah was coming.  So Christ coming in the flesh was not a "new scheme."

One does not "parochially swear allegiance" to anyone to be saved...just believe.

Which brings us back to my question... why this convoluted scheme to address sin? Please, don't just say "God works in mysterious ways" because that's, to put it bluntly, not an answer.


I don't think I've ever thought about having a list that would convince me that Christianity was not correct.  If you were a Christian what would be on your list?

For me, the first - and only - thing on the list would be "Can I define God?" I can't believe in something I cannot define. Belief in something unknown and, fundamentally, unknowable is meaningless.


What is on your list (if you don't mind sharing) that would help to convince you that Christianity is correct?

I don't have such a list, but the first step would be a logical, consistent explanation of God. The second step would logical proof that the previously defined entity exists. No step should require faith, and no step should require that I accept a premise before proof of the validity of the premise can be provided.
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2012, 07:29:18 AM »

Adam and Eve are historical fictions. Human beings have around 100-200 thousand years; if the grace and faith scheme was sufficient for their salvation (despite their not being such a thing as a Christian at the time), why change it and insist on a new scheme where one has to parochially swear allegiance to one Apocalyptic preacher in particular, a scheme in which God must kill himself?

I'm asking you - and any other Christians willing to participate - to think critically on these matters, not throw up Biblical passages. The Bible will not be of assistance when it comes to answering the most interesting questions, e.g., why God chose evolution via natural selection - the process that creates perhaps the most suffering of all the tools available and eliminates 99% of life over time. If you really cared about the implications of all this you ought to be a Gnostic, not a Christian.

At what point do you start to see how terribly unreasonable all of this is? I'm genuinely curious: what could possibly occur to make you change your mind about anything? I have a little list drawn up that, if fulfilled, would convince me that Christianity was probably correct. Do you have anything similar regarding its falsehood? The problem with many Christians is they have no such list: no such ability to hold beliefs contingently. And thus they'll pretend to have a critical discussion with you, during which the shoddy or non-existent reasons for being Christian are paraded out, and after which 'faith,' 'mystery,' and 'awe-inspiring feeling' are deployed to defend their belief from any further evaluation. In other words, the discussion is academic because the person is going to believe what they're going to believe regardless of the reasons under discussion! There's nothing comparable in science, logic, or philosophy, and this does not reflect well on religious belief.
The Persian Empire held the biggest army in the known world, Darius mounted an army of 1 million men, the human population at this time was between 120-140 million, 350 bc- 2350 years ago.

The Babylonians managed to be the first world power to incorporate trade and commerce, Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom had anywhere from 500-600 thousand soldiers, population was 100 million, 550 bc nearly 2600 years ago

Sennacherib, king of Assyria carried 200 000 soldiers on campaign and that was 50% of is army, leaving half his Army in Mesopotamia, guarding cities such as Babylon and   Nineveh. World Population 80-90 million, 700 bc, 2700+ years ago.

King Solomon reigned over Israel, Egypt, Syria, Ammon and Moab (present day Jordan), Asia Minor (present day Turkey), Ethiopia, Mesopotamia (Akkad, Assyria, Babylonia and Uruk), Chaldea (present day Iran), Median and Sinai peninsula (present day Saudia Arabia),.... all of these territories made up at last 1 third of the World and his kingdom reigned with only a population of 3 million, world popluation 50 million. 1000 BC,... 3000 years ago

Between 1000 BC and 2000 BC many nations marched Armies but non exceeded 100 000 soldiers, some had several hundred thousand men that where capable o fighting, but the same men where also need for other task, nations include, Cush, Egypt, Median, Philistine, Chaldea, Elam, Accadian, Summer, Babylonians etc

Hammurabi is the first known man that historians recognize as giving the first law code "tooth for tooth, eye for eye" etc he was from Babylon and he enforced his law with an army of 20 000 men

Finally the oldest language and writings known to mankind, Cuneiform, found on clay tablets in the fertile cresent 3000 BC, and sure enough the oldest civilisation recognized by historians across every single university on the planet, the Summerians

.... Now this is funny, Sargon the great also known as Sargon of Accad is the first (yes the first), known General of all time, there is absolutely no record of an Army or any type of military power before him, 3000 BC, he mounted an Army of 5000 men, the biggest army in the world according the cuneiform tablets this information was founded on. OH you noticed the pattern the numbers keep getting smaller..

The greatest archaeological find of all time (IMO) is the Ashurbanipal library, found in present day Iraq has over 1000 documented wars dating between 600bc and 3000 bc and all of sudden nothing before this time, no nations, no civilizations, no cultures, no nothing, thousands of manuscript, biggiest library of antiquity,....

... So what's my point?...
....SO WHAT IS THIS NON-SENSE "HUMANS AROUND FOR 200 000 YEARS" ... YOU SPEAK OF?
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