Author Topic: Obama has been a successful POTUS  (Read 18345 times)

Straw Man

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2012, 11:12:47 AM »
For shit made in China.   Savings is used to lend to business and expand existing operations.   We need growth and production, not more consumption. 

Do you even know how banking works? 

When you deposit money into the bank - they use it to lend to business or other loans.

I have a feeling I'm much more familiar with how banking works than you are

If you think all consumption is shit from china and that we need less consumption than its pointless to continue trying to educate you as is almost always the case

Businesses don't borrow without having a reason and banks don't create demand by lending

Btw - in spite of having money to lend credit is still tight
Bernake has talked about the need for banks to loosening up but to no avail

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2012, 11:22:15 AM »
I have a feeling I'm much more familiar with how banking works than you are

If you think all consumption is shit from china and that we need less consumption than its pointless to continue trying to educate you as is almost always the case

Businesses don't borrow without having a reason and banks don't create demand by lending

Btw - in spite of having money to lend credit is still tight
Bernake has talked about the need for banks to loosening up but to no avail


Yeah, just what we need - more consumption funded by borrowed money - got it.    ::)  ::)

Straw Man

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2012, 11:25:53 AM »

Yeah, just what we need - more consumption funded by borrowed money - got it.    ::)  ::)

feel free to find me any economist that says less consumption will be good for our economy

Shockwave

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2012, 11:32:33 AM »
feel free to find me any economist that says less consumption will be good for our economy
Krugman approved.

To be fair though, I dont really think any economist that I know of believes an economy will get stronger by everyone holding on to their money.

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2012, 12:03:51 PM »
Repubs get plenty of blame too

they didn't do anything to help employment and they prevented Obama from increasing government employment in spite of the fact the 3 former Republican POTUS's grew government employment as one means to reduce unemployment and effectively stimulate a recovery

Unlike the recession during Reagan, Bush1 and Bush2, government employment has actually gone down under Obama

good post and very accurate......we have much less gov't workers now than we have had the past 30 years or so....most under Republican presidents....people spread so much untrue propaganda about Obama it's crazy.......name one thing the Repubs did?

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »
Krugman approved.

To be fair though, I dont really think any economist that I know of believes an economy will get stronger by everyone holding on to their money.

this is a rare occurrence.....better throw a party :)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2012, 12:30:07 PM »
good post and very accurate......we have much less gov't workers now than we have had the past 30 years or so....most under Republican presidents....people spread so much untrue propaganda about Obama it's crazy.......name one thing the Repubs did?

Yeah, thats the plan, lets get everyone on the doll.  Working out great w food stamps etc right? 

syntaxmachine

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2012, 03:04:29 PM »
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/06/201262412445190400.html


MB just won.     


That doesn't change my assessment that their achieving a "stable regime" will take months. Having a single presidential candidate selected does not a stable regime make. For example, the military disbanded the Islamist parliament not too long ago. That problem must be resolved, a constitution must be drawn up, and the military's ultimate role in politics determined. This is going to take a while.

After the dust is settled, we can begin to evaluate the consequences of Mubarak's stepping down.


Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2012, 03:18:31 PM »
That doesn't change my assessment that their achieving a "stable regime" will take months. Having a single presidential candidate selected does not a stable regime make. For example, the military disbanded the Islamist parliament not too long ago. That problem must be resolved, a constitution must be drawn up, and the military's ultimate role in politics determined. This is going to take a while.

After the dust is settled, we can begin to evaluate the consequences of Mubarak's stepping down.




Lol.    The consequences are in, Muslim brotherhood taking over like many of us predicted.

syntaxmachine

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2012, 04:14:03 PM »
The entire foundation of your argument is inaccurate.  Proposed and passed legislation is not the primary measure of a successful presidency.  What if the legislation he proposes is crap and harmful to the country?  That is not success.

Like any CEO, manager, etc., you measure success by the health of the company.  With presidents, you have to ask whether the country is better off today than it was four years ago.  In this case, the answer is clearly no.  The economic indicators are worse.  Unemployment is up. Job growth is down.  Businesses are afraid to expand.  Spending, the deficit, and debt have exploded.  He failed to submit a balanced budget.  Gas prices are up.  Consumer confidence is down.  Home prices are down.  Our credit rating has been downgraded.  His signature, partisan "achievement" is not only unpopular, it's likely going down in flames in the supreme court.
Polls show the overwhelming majority of the country believe the economy is headed in the wrong direction.  
That's failure.

I'm afraid you just aren't engaging my larger point at all, either because I haven't communicated it very well (unlikely), you haven't actually read any of my posts (possible), or there is a genuine failure of comprehension on your part (the likeliest scenario).

The larger point relates to what presidents are capable of, and thus what it makes sense to hold them accountable for. Presidents set the agenda for the country by proposing legislation (or, "suggesting" it, since only the Congress formally develops it), appointing people to governmental positions that they feel are qualified, and running a responsible foreign policy. So, it makes sense to hold them accountable for their legislative agendas, their appointments, and the foreign policies they choose to pursue.

(Obviously, when I say that proposed/passed legislation is an objective measure of success, I do not mean that it is just the statistical ratio that matters. Clearly, the actual policies matter. And there is a discussion going on here about whether such legislation has been successful or not, plus the merits of Obama's foreign policy, stemming from my OP.)

Once we understand what presidents can do, an important negative point is made: they cannot be held accountable for what they cannot do. So no, you should not evaluate presidents on the basis of whether things are "better" than they were four years ago: only a fool thinks that presidents are powerful enough to harness the economy. If they were dictators that controlled everything, then it might be fair to evaluate them as such.

Ironically, your list of "things not better" here is chalk full of examples that prove my point (as well as inaccuracies: I already indicated the poll showing that stagnant lending and hiring is a result of a lack of demand, not uncertainty or "fear" of expanding, as you put it). I will take one of these examples in-depth rather than discuss them all: gas prices. Are you really naive enough to think the POTUS controls gas prices?

The price of oil is the primary determinant of gas prices (65 cents for every dollar spent on gas). As of 2011, the US produces about 7.8 million bpd of oil, or 8.9% of the worldwide total. Thus, even in an utterly miraculous scenario that is humanly impossible in which a president instantly doubled US oil production -- something approving the Keystone XL pipeline and all the rest would not come remotely close to doing -- the price of oil (which, for simplicity's sake we are assuming is determined solely by supply and demand, something that isn't quite true) would shift from $90.71 a barrel to $82.64 a barrel. This in turn would mean the US average gas price would go from $3.533 a gallon to ... wait for it ... $3.33 a gallon.

Oil, the primary determinant of gas prices, is a global commodity and no POTUS can do a damned thing about that. You are a fool for indicating Obama has any control over gas prices.

P.S. "Oil 101" by Morgan Downey is the industry standard and is a good place to start if you want to get informed on this particular topic.

Straw Man

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2012, 04:51:11 PM »
I'm afraid you just aren't engaging my larger point at all, either because I haven't communicated it very well (unlikely), you haven't actually read any of my posts (possible), or there is a genuine failure of comprehension on your part (the likeliest scenario).

The larger point relates to what presidents are capable of, and thus what it makes sense to hold them accountable for. Presidents set the agenda for the country by proposing legislation (or, "suggesting" it, since only the Congress formally develops it), appointing people to governmental positions that they feel are qualified, and running a responsible foreign policy. So, it makes sense to hold them accountable for their legislative agendas, their appointments, and the foreign policies they choose to pursue.

(Obviously, when I say that proposed/passed legislation is an objective measure of success, I do not mean that it is just the statistical ratio that matters. Clearly, the actual policies matter. And there is a discussion going on here about whether such legislation has been successful or not, plus the merits of Obama's foreign policy, stemming from my OP.)

Once we understand what presidents can do, an important negative point is made: they cannot be held accountable for what they cannot do. So no, you should not evaluate presidents on the basis of whether things are "better" than they were four years ago: only a fool thinks that presidents are powerful enough to harness the economy. If they were dictators that controlled everything, then it might be fair to evaluate them as such.

Ironically, your list of "things not better" here is chalk full of examples that prove my point (as well as inaccuracies: I already indicated the poll showing that stagnant lending and hiring is a result of a lack of demand, not uncertainty or "fear" of expanding, as you put it). I will take one of these examples in-depth rather than discuss them all: gas prices. Are you really naive enough to think the POTUS controls gas prices?

The price of oil is the primary determinant of gas prices (65 cents for every dollar spent on gas). As of 2011, the US produces about 7.8 million bpd of oil, or 8.9% of the worldwide total. Thus, even in an utterly miraculous scenario that is humanly impossible in which a president instantly doubled US oil production -- something approving the Keystone XL pipeline and all the rest would not come remotely close to doing -- the price of oil (which, for simplicity's sake we are assuming is determined solely by supply and demand, something that isn't quite true) would shift from $90.71 a barrel to $82.64 a barrel. This in turn would mean the US average gas price would go from $3.533 a gallon to ... wait for it ... $3.33 a gallon.

Oil, the primary determinant of gas prices, is a global commodity and no POTUS can do a damned thing about that. You are a fool for indicating Obama has any control over gas prices.

P.S. "Oil 101" by Morgan Downey is the industry standard and is a good place to start if you want to get informed on this particular topic.

Bum is not looking to get informed on any topic

He gets his news from NewsMax and his general failure of comprehension is due almost entirely to willful ignorance

he chooses to stay misinformed

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2012, 04:58:11 PM »
I'm afraid you just aren't engaging my larger point at all, either because I haven't communicated it very well (unlikely), you haven't actually read any of my posts (possible), or there is a genuine failure of comprehension on your part (the likeliest scenario).

The larger point relates to what presidents are capable of, and thus what it makes sense to hold them accountable for. Presidents set the agenda for the country by proposing legislation (or, "suggesting" it, since only the Congress formally develops it), appointing people to governmental positions that they feel are qualified, and running a responsible foreign policy. So, it makes sense to hold them accountable for their legislative agendas, their appointments, and the foreign policies they choose to pursue.

(Obviously, when I say that proposed/passed legislation is an objective measure of success, I do not mean that it is just the statistical ratio that matters. Clearly, the actual policies matter. And there is a discussion going on here about whether such legislation has been successful or not, plus the merits of Obama's foreign policy, stemming from my OP.)

Once we understand what presidents can do, an important negative point is made: they cannot be held accountable for what they cannot do. So no, you should not evaluate presidents on the basis of whether things are "better" than they were four years ago: only a fool thinks that presidents are powerful enough to harness the economy. If they were dictators that controlled everything, then it might be fair to evaluate them as such.

Ironically, your list of "things not better" here is chalk full of examples that prove my point (as well as inaccuracies: I already indicated the poll showing that stagnant lending and hiring is a result of a lack of demand, not uncertainty or "fear" of expanding, as you put it). I will take one of these examples in-depth rather than discuss them all: gas prices. Are you really naive enough to think the POTUS controls gas prices?

The price of oil is the primary determinant of gas prices (65 cents for every dollar spent on gas). As of 2011, the US produces about 7.8 million bpd of oil, or 8.9% of the worldwide total. Thus, even in an utterly miraculous scenario that is humanly impossible in which a president instantly doubled US oil production -- something approving the Keystone XL pipeline and all the rest would not come remotely close to doing -- the price of oil (which, for simplicity's sake we are assuming is determined solely by supply and demand, something that isn't quite true) would shift from $90.71 a barrel to $82.64 a barrel. This in turn would mean the US average gas price would go from $3.533 a gallon to ... wait for it ... $3.33 a gallon.

Oil, the primary determinant of gas prices, is a global commodity and no POTUS can do a damned thing about that. You are a fool for indicating Obama has any control over gas prices.

P.S. "Oil 101" by Morgan Downey is the industry standard and is a good place to start if you want to get informed on this particular topic.

Your entire premise is wrong.  I can't really it make any simpler for your to understand. 

Regarding the items I listed, which are all factual, it doesn't really matter whether the president has direct control or a direct impact on all of them.  What matters is the country's performance as a whole (just like the performance of a business as a whole) is primarily how you judge a leader.  It's not amount of legislation proposed and passed.

This is true of leadership in general, whether you're talking about business, politics, or even sports. The buck stops at the top. 

In addition to the other items I mentioned, job approval ratings give you a sense of whether the public believes the administration has been successful.  The president's approval ratings stink. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2012, 04:59:51 PM »
1.  Has obama swayed the american electorate to the progressive viewpoint?   No. 

2.  Has obama helped or hurt the democrat party electorally?  Hurt

3.  Has obama passed bi-partisan bills that most of the electorate wants or likes?  No, despite the fact that LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, GWB did.

4.  Has obama improved or worsed our foreign policy?  Ask Russia or China about that one

5.  If ObamaCare goes down, what will obama's legacy be? 

6.  Has obama inspired confidence in the economy for growth or expansion?  no. 

7.  Has obama been faithful to the USC overall?   No 

8.  Has obama been true to his promises of bringing people together and having a transparent admn?  No 

9.  Has obama addressed the most serious issues of the day?  Simpson Bowles anyone? 

10.  If obama is so effective, why his is blaming everyone for everything as opposed to running on his record?

11.  If Obama is so effective, why are increasin numbers of democrats running away from him? 

12.  If Obama is so successfull, why have 3 million democrats left the part since he was elected? 

13.  What specific criteria are we looking at?  By most measures everything is worse than when he came in by his own measure 3 years ago. 
   

Good points. 

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2012, 05:50:18 PM »
Your entire premise is wrong.  I can't really it make any simpler for your to understand. 

Regarding the items I listed, which are all factual, it doesn't really matter whether the president has direct control or a direct impact on all of them.  What matters is the country's performance as a whole (just like the performance of a business as a whole) is primarily how you judge a leader.  It's not amount of legislation proposed and passed.

This is true of leadership in general, whether you're talking about business, politics, or even sports. The buck stops at the top. 

In addition to the other items I mentioned, job approval ratings give you a sense of whether the public believes the administration has been successful.  The president's approval ratings stink. 

Good try but not true.....in a business the CEO/ Leader doesn't have a faction of his company that is totally against his policies and fights him tooth and nail on the things he proposes to get the company functioning well......

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2012, 06:06:13 PM »
Good try but not true.....in a business the CEO/ Leader doesn't have a faction of his company that is totally against his policies and fights him tooth and nail on the things he proposes to get the company functioning well......

after 2010 mid terms Obama should have realized his business was going down and reversed course.  Obama is like. RIM.    Originally a great new shiney product, but one that over time failed to keep up and became stale, old and ineffective.

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2012, 06:12:31 PM »
Good try but not true.....in a business the CEO/ Leader doesn't have a faction of his company that is totally against his policies and fights him tooth and nail on the things he proposes to get the company functioning well......

Yes, it is true that a business leader's tenure is judged by the success of the business.  And it's not true that a business leader doesn't have to deal with factions.  That's absurd.  There are often board members, fellow executives, and/or employees who don't like the leader and want to see him or her fail.  That's part of the reality of business. 

I would say nice try, but it that was pretty weak.   :)

andreisdaman

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2012, 06:41:20 PM »
Yes, it is true that a business leader's tenure is judged by the success of the business.  And it's not true that a business leader doesn't have to deal with factions.  That's absurd.  There are often board members, fellow executives, and/or employees who don't like the leader and want to see him or her fail.  That's part of the reality of business. 

I would say nice try, but it that was pretty weak.   :)


good try again....yes a business leader has some guys who want him, to fail but not over 250-300 guys who march in lockstep and openly defy the leader..also corporate CEO's simply fire those who are insubordinate...the Prez can't do that

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2012, 06:44:11 PM »
good try again....yes a business leader has some guys who want him, to fail but not over 250-300 guys who march in lockstep and openly defy the leader..also corporate CEO's simply fire those who are insubordinate...the Prez can't do that

So again, Obama has no fault for his situation.   typical.   Blame blame blame. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2012, 06:51:28 PM »
good try again....yes a business leader has some guys who want him, to fail but not over 250-300 guys who march in lockstep and openly defy the leader..also corporate CEO's simply fire those who are insubordinate...the Prez can't do that

Nonsense.  Depending on the size of the company, that is definitely a possibility.  And yes, a CEO can fire insubordinate employees, but he or she cannot fire board members and his peers for the most part. 

But you're missing the point.  The buck stops at the top.  A CEO takes credit or blame for a successful or failing business.  A head coach takes the credit or blame for a greatly or poorly performing team.  The president takes credit or blame for a greatly or poorly performing economy. 

Go back and look at Bush Sr. and how he took the fall because of a poor economy.  And rightfully so. 

garebear

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2012, 06:54:17 PM »
Guys, stop fighting.

G

Soul Crusher

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #120 on: June 24, 2012, 06:58:28 PM »
Guys, stop fighting.



Either add to the discussion or f off.   your trolling amd. Tourettes is annoying.

garebear

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #121 on: June 24, 2012, 07:10:28 PM »
Either add to the discussion or f off.   your trolling amd. Tourettes is annoying.
Be nice, skippy.

G

syntaxmachine

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2012, 02:01:00 AM »
Your entire premise is wrong.  I can't really it make any simpler for your to understand. 

Regarding the items I listed, which are all factual, it doesn't really matter whether the president has direct control or a direct impact on all of them.  What matters is the country's performance as a whole (just like the performance of a business as a whole) is primarily how you judge a leader.  It's not amount of legislation proposed and passed.

This is true of leadership in general, whether you're talking about business, politics, or even sports. The buck stops at the top. 

In addition to the other items I mentioned, job approval ratings give you a sense of whether the public believes the administration has been successful.  The president's approval ratings stink. 

The conversation has reached its peak if you are unable to recognize facts. The facts must regulate our discourse: we can't just assert whatever fits our worldview, ignoring reality all the while (actually, you can, but then you'll be in here by yourself and 3333 pretty quickly). For example, if the facts indicate that the MB is a disaster for Egypt and US security interests, then I will concede the point to 3333.

You stated that businesses are afraid to grow (presumably because of some policy or other of Obama's). I cited the WSJ poll indicating that expert opinion on the matter is that hiring/lending is stagnant due to weak demand, not uncertainty over government policy. So what you say is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates. Therefore it isn't justifiably called "factual."

Saying 'this is the way it is' when it comes to evaluating presidents does nothing to advance the conversation. Maybe a majority of people do use the 'am I better off now' method. What we need to figure out is, should they? Should presidents be held accountable for things they have literally no influence over? I'm more interested in objectively analyzing performance in office, not pretending the POTUS is a football coach. If you need to think in these terms and you want to praise/blame a POTUS for virtually everything as if he has magical powers, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend that such simplistic thinking is indicative of reality.

whork

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2012, 03:22:30 AM »
The conversation has reached its peak if you are unable to recognize facts. The facts must regulate our discourse: we can't just assert whatever fits our worldview, ignoring reality all the while (actually, you can, but then you'll be in here by yourself and 3333 pretty quickly). For example, if the facts indicate that the MB is a disaster for Egypt and US security interests, then I will concede the point to 3333.

You stated that businesses are afraid to grow (presumably because of some policy or other of Obama's). I cited the WSJ poll indicating that expert opinion on the matter is that hiring/lending is stagnant due to weak demand, not uncertainty over government policy. So what you say is exactly the opposite of what the evidence indicates. Therefore it isn't justifiably called "factual."

Saying 'this is the way it is' when it comes to evaluating presidents does nothing to advance the conversation. Maybe a majority of people do use the 'am I better off now' method. What we need to figure out is, should they? Should presidents be held accountable for things they have literally no influence over? I'm more interested in objectively analyzing performance in office, not pretending the POTUS is a football coach. If you need to think in these terms and you want to praise/blame a POTUS for virtually everything as if he has magical powers, then go right ahead. Just don't pretend that such simplistic thinking is indicative of reality.


Wow

BUMp motherfucking bump

whork

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Re: Obama has been a successful POTUS
« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2012, 03:25:13 AM »
Sorry to burst everyone's bubbles around here, but by objective standards Obama has been a successful POTUS and a far more competent one than his predecessor. The primary such standard is the amount of legislation proposed/passed/implemented, a value that makes Obama far above average.

His foreign policy has been a success: his election instantly boosted world public opinion, which matters to the extent that it feeds into our soft power, or ability to influence others. His emphasis on multilateralism is sound and the operation in Libya to secure those oil resources for the world (no, democracy was not and almost never is the primary goal) was a stellar success that cost zero American lives and a mere $2 billion (we each payed a little over $6 for it). On the other hand his administration's emphasis on drone strikes and covert operations has won the war on terror: Al Qaeda has been genuinely ravaged and barely functions as an organization. Such operations included the personally-authorized killing of OBL, an important symbolic victory.

Things are more complex at home. Banking regulation was passed, which includes the Volcker Rule banning proprietary trading and other measures that are seemingly necessary to prevent another bailout, but nobody knows just how much regulation is optimal. Obama also stepped up and addressed the issue predecessors pussied out on, healthcare. The resultant legislation was a centrist plan (anyone who calls it 'socialist' has never been to Europe or examined their public policy) based on a conservative policy proposal that originated with the Heritage Foundation (a mandate to tackle the free riders that increase costs). That it may get struck down does not reflect on Obama as he has no control over SC deliberations to begin with. He can only be evaluated for his specific actions.

Finally, we come to the economy, which is what actually dtermines elections anyway. There is an extraordinary amount of confusion about this as  certain posters think we live in a system where the POTUS wields magical powers that determine the course of the economy. The misunderstanding is reinforced by presidents who take credit for growth and pundits who blame/credit everything happening to a president. The fact is this: we live in a capitalist where private actors control productivity. Corporations invest and hire/fire according to their plans, households only spend according to their perceptions of wealth, and banks lend in response to demand. Presidents do not control any of these variables, and can at best moderately nudge them in one or another direction.

Even considering this, CBO estimates put the number of jobs saved by the stimulus in the hundreds of thousands. The subsequent recovery has been tepid and has disappointed Obama and everybody else. But the point is, if the economic variables are all controlled by exogenous factors outside the WH, how can we lump all of the blame against Obama all the same? There is no evidence at all that a Republican president would have done anything differently, especially not since the stimuls contains much Friedman-esque monetary policy as is (the continued actions of the Fed belie the notion that the stimulus has been purely Keynesian).

In short, Obama has been an above-average president and performed admirably given the inherent limitations on the office (the position just isn't as powerful as many make it out to be) and the simply unprecedented circumstances inherited. People focus on the POTUS as a convenient symbol for everything the USG is doing and everything happening in the economy; the position is a convenient beacon for love and hate with a human face, when the real causality is mostly reserved for faceless machines comprised of the decisions of millions of individual actors (the USG + markets). People ought to understand as such when evaluating a US president.

One of the best posts i've read in a while.
Beach Bum and 333... Dario etc your simple minds cant cope with this guy and reality