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Author Topic: If there is a god, how in the freaking hell can he let shit like this happen?  (Read 2278 times)
Hugo Chavez
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« on: June 24, 2012, 04:20:23 AM »

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people.  What a vile fucking world.  God, lol... Roll Eyes 

32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
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pedro01
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 07:28:28 AM »

Damn....

Very sad  Cry
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 08:40:15 AM »

"God works in Mysterious ways" 
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Hustle Man
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 08:15:20 PM »

Everything about this earth is cursed by sin (according to the bible) and it only gets worse; that is of course until Jesus comes back (according to the bible)! Just sayin!
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Hugo Chavez
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2012, 11:09:47 PM »

Everything about this earth is cursed by sin (according to the bible) and it only gets worse; that is of course until Jesus comes back (according to the bible)! Just sayin!
lol, and what the hell is the point of all that?  Kinda either makes god a freaking psychopath or lazy couch potato..
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 07:00:25 AM »

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people.  What a vile fucking world.  God, lol... Roll Eyes 

32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html

Horrible.

Why does God allow this type of thing?  Or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages that aker's brother was on the jury?  I don't know. 

Hugo, when you hear about this kind of stuff, do you usually find your mind wondering about God and if He is real, where is He in the details and why doesn't He stop this?  Or are there an equal amount of times that you don't think of God at all when you hear of these horrors?
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 10:59:59 AM »

1. God doesn't give a shit.

2. God is powerless to stop it.

3. God doesn't exist.


Only 3 answers to this question. Logically and philosophically.
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Hustle Man
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 09:42:32 PM »

lol, and what the hell is the point of all that?  Kinda either makes god a freaking psychopath or lazy couch potato..

Read the Christian bible (which talks about the very nature of the God) to get the point! FYI, I have asks that very same question in the past when I too tried to understand God without reading about him. I understand how you feel but read the bible to get the point, you don't have to agree but at least you'll have a better understanding of why he allows terrible things to happen to seemly innocent people and sometimes good things happen to bad people. It frustrates me too at times but I understand God's nature and plan so I accept it. I hate Mosquitoes but they serve a purpose and because I had nothing to do with them being here and when I am gone they will still be here so I have to accept the fact that what I loathe and view as pointless actually has a purpose in this corrupt environment in which we exist.

HM
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 11:29:42 PM »


Read the Christian bible (which talks about the very nature of the God) to get the point! FYI, I have asks that very same question in the past when I too tried to understand God without reading about him. I understand how you feel but read the bible to get the point, you don't have to agree but at least you'll have a better understanding of why he allows terrible things to happen to seemly innocent people and sometimes good things happen to bad people. It frustrates me too at times but I understand God's nature and plan so I accept it. I hate Mosquitoes but they serve a purpose and because I had nothing to do with them being here and when I am gone they will still be here so I have to accept the fact that what I loathe and view as pointless actually has a purpose in this corrupt environment in which we exist.

HM


The Bible does not answer the question at hand, or else there wouldn't be centuries of discussion over the 'problem of evil' and desperate apologetics to this day trying to resolve the problem.

Since you 'understand God's nature' (how humble!), why don't you answer the question: why did God choose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation? The process generates the most suffering of all the tools, eliminates 99% of life, and leads to the sorts of mutations that kill innocent children. Since you clearly know the answer, please do tell!
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 10:00:39 PM »

The Bible does not answer the question at hand, or else there wouldn't be centuries of discussion over the 'problem of evil' and desperate apologetics to this day trying to resolve the problem.

Since you 'understand God's nature' (how humble!), why don't you answer the question: why did God choose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation? The process generates the most suffering of all the tools, eliminates 99% of life, and leads to the sorts of mutations that kill innocent children. Since you clearly know the answer, please do tell!

No need to mock, I think we can discuss this without insulting.  My understanding of God's nature comes from what the bible says about him that
God is eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We are not eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent and therefore we cannot expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways. The book of Job deals with this issue. God allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job did not understand why God allowed the things He did, but he knew God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. I don't want to get wordy but your question, "God chose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation?" does not follow the original question of this thread. I answered biblically with references.

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of us are tainted by and infected with sin Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8, (my original point). Now, because we are all cursed by sin none of us are good and what happen to the 10 yrs old kid is terrible but not surprising given human nature.  Romans 3:10-18 could not be clearer about the non-existence of “good” people: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

According to the bible this is why these types of abuses are common in this sin cursed environment.

HM.
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 10:58:27 PM »

No need to mock, I think we can discuss this without insulting.  My understanding of God's nature comes from what the bible says about him that
God is eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We are not eternal, immutable, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent and therefore we cannot expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways. The book of Job deals with this issue. God allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job did not understand why God allowed the things He did, but he knew God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. I don't want to get wordy but your question, "God chose evolution via natural selection as his tool of creation?" does not follow the original question of this thread. I answered biblically with references.

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of us are tainted by and infected with sin Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8, (my original point). Now, because we are all cursed by sin none of us are good and what happen to the 10 yrs old kid is terrible but not surprising given human nature.  Romans 3:10-18 could not be clearer about the non-existence of “good” people: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

According to the bible this is why these types of abuses are common in this sin cursed environment.

HM.

The question regarding evolution via natural selection is directly relevant to the OP's question because it is a variation on the problem of evil, or, the problem of why God seems to allow such suffering and misery-inducing events to occur uninhibited.

The answer is not in the Bible, or else the Christian apologists could point to it and be done. Instead, there is a centuries old debate. The most sophisticated work on the problem came out of the toiling of the Catholics during the Medieval period and was generated from philosophical reflection, not searching for quotes in the Bible.

Unfortunately, the answer you've provided here is not an answer at all: it reduces to the phrase, 'God works in mysterious ways.' It is a recommendation to entirely ignore a problem and pretend it isn't there, while still maintaining one's belief. It is also extremely questionable because the rest of God's apparent plan is entirely intelligible. Why would his handling of suffering suddenly become incomprehensible to us? The need for 'mystery' only appears when an apparent logical contradiction is at hand.

Would you forgive, say, a scientist for such a thing? Imagine that a scientist's theory on the origins of the universe is fully fleshed out, but when an inconsistency arises, he says, "You must believe me all the same; the universe works in mysterious ways," with that being his only answer in response to critics pointing the inconsistency out. This is a copout and a non-explanation whose only purpose is to paper over theoretical difficulties, both for a scientific theory and a religious one (like Christianity). It is a totally unacceptable move to make in any sort of intellectual inquiry.

Regarding sin: there is a variety of suffering that is generated by mindless biological processes, such as mutations that wreak havoc on newborns. This suffering is a result of the tools of creation God chose, not our sin (as it is not the result of humans inflicting suffering upon one another). This type of suffering cannot be accounted for by sin-based explanations such as the one you offer in your second paragraph, as the processes generating it are antecedent to such sin (that is, these processes existed long before we did, and thus before our sin did).
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 06:54:41 AM »

The question regarding evolution via natural selection is directly relevant to the OP's question because it is a variation on the problem of evil, or, the problem of why God seems to allow such suffering and misery-inducing events to occur uninhibited.

The answer is not in the Bible, or else the Christian apologists could point to it and be done. Instead, there is a centuries old debate. The most sophisticated work on the problem came out of the toiling of the Catholics during the Medieval period and was generated from philosophical reflection, not searching for quotes in the Bible.

Unfortunately, the answer you've provided here is not an answer at all: it reduces to the phrase, 'God works in mysterious ways.' It is a recommendation to entirely ignore a problem and pretend it isn't there, while still maintaining one's belief. It is also extremely questionable because the rest of God's apparent plan is entirely intelligible. Why would his handling of suffering suddenly become incomprehensible to us? The need for 'mystery' only appears when an apparent logical contradiction is at hand.

Would you forgive, say, a scientist for such a thing? Imagine that a scientist's theory on the origins of the universe is fully fleshed out, but when an inconsistency arises, he says, "You must believe me all the same; the universe works in mysterious ways," with that being his only answer in response to critics pointing the inconsistency out. This is a copout and a non-explanation whose only purpose is to paper over theoretical difficulties, both for a scientific theory and a religious one (like Christianity). It is a totally unacceptable move to make in any sort of intellectual inquiry.

Regarding sin: there is a variety of suffering that is generated by mindless biological processes, such as mutations that wreak havoc on newborns. This suffering is a result of the tools of creation God chose, not our sin (as it is not the result of humans inflicting suffering upon one another). This type of suffering cannot be accounted for by sin-based explanations such as the one you offer in your second paragraph, as the processes generating it are antecedent to such sin (that is, these processes existed long before we did, and thus before our sin did).

I believe the bible answers the question about why this vile thing happened to this 10 year old, you obviously do not! So, for the sake of avoiding redundancy let's just leave it there. I do have a question for you; how do we as humans eradicate this problem?
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 11:04:05 AM »

1. God doesn't give a shit.

2. God is powerless to stop it.

3. God doesn't exist.


Only 3 answers to this question. Logically and philosophically.

God has empowered us to act accordingly and has entrusted his creation to us....I would think God may ask us why we haven't done anything to prevent it.
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2012, 11:14:24 AM »

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people.  What a vile fucking world.  God, lol... Roll Eyes 

32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html

Easy Answer... There IS NOT A GOD.
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 11:19:02 AM »

if we act like idiots its not god fault
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2012, 02:46:44 PM »

Which problem in particular, HM?

Mankind's inhumanity toward mankind, e.g. this woman locking her own child in a closet or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages, one poster pointed out.

I ask you, how can we stop this type of behavior and countless other inhumanities from happening that have plagued mankind since the begining? I don't think we can because of what the bible says about our human nature as stated in Romans 3:10-18; I see no other logical explanation for the way we treat one another, myself included.
Man I look back on my life and I can't believe some of the things I've done or said to others but once God changed the way I see him, I see people and everything else under the sun differently now! I can't explain the transformation and I still struggle with many things but little by little I am changing for the better. Maybe having a wonderful woman by my side and awesome kids caused me to think of others more than myself. Who knows?

HM
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 03:38:23 PM »

if we act like idiots its not god fault


He made us. He knew that we would do all we do before hand, but he still made Hitler, Mao Zedong, Stalin, Manson, etc.

If you were about to make a robot, and you KNEW it would kill millions of people, would you still make it?
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2012, 08:19:38 AM »

if we act like idiots its not god fault

If god acts like a tyrannical psychopath is it our fault? 
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The Scott
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2012, 10:57:49 AM »

If god acts like a tyrannical psychopath is it our fault? 

Nope.  It is not. 
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The Scott
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2012, 11:05:00 AM »

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people.  What a vile fucking world.  God, lol... Roll Eyes 

32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html

Since we can easily surmise that you do not believe in any deity the real question you should be posing is this, my friend.

How can a people, a nation, a world,  suffer dross the likes of this to live?  Liberalism in the form of "It's not the fault of the criminal, but rather the fault of society".

In other words, look not to the God, gods or what ever you wish to name in the name of making your point to act, instead look around you at those we all have elected to do our will but instead do their whim.  If we push aside morality because it comes from God, then we are left with immorality which comes from man. 

It is a sad fact that so many people desire immortality and yet settle for immorality.  The zeitgeist of this world needs to change and change for the better.  It is not the fault of any deity, but that of mankind in general. 

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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2012, 04:56:11 AM »

I wanna fucking puke and quite frankly after getting a dose of this kind of shit almost daily in the headlines I wanna give up and head out. Somewhere with no people.  What a vile fucking world.  God, lol... Roll Eyes 

32-pound, 10-year-old found locked in Mo. closet
http://news.yahoo.com/32-pound-10-old-found-locked-mo-closet-001500033.html
Take a look at the vid I posted, may make you think about "God" and the "The devil" in a diff light---explaining things.
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 02:50:08 AM »


Mankind's inhumanity toward mankind, e.g. this woman locking her own child in a closet or that young couple tortured and murdered by those savages, one poster pointed out.

I ask you, how can we stop this type of behavior and countless other inhumanities from happening that have plagued mankind since the begining? I don't think we can because of what the bible says about our human nature as stated in Romans 3:10-18; I see no other logical explanation for the way we treat one another, myself included.


HM

"Mankind's inhumanity" towards its fellow members is easily explained by the fact that we are primates. All of this animal-like behavior is perfectly explicable, given the fact that we share 90%+ of our genes with those animals at the zoo that excitedly throw their shit at us! Behavioral tendencies (in the form of statistical regularities) are derived from the species' gene pool.

Your seeing no other logical explanation for the behavioral tendencies of the species than the Bible's is simply a failure of imagination on your part. Anyone who has studied logic (including myself) begs to disagree that the Bible has the only "logical" answer.

Still, in some sense you are right that our behavior is not liable to change. We can ameliorate it by educating people and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving, but permanent change will not occur unless the gene pool all these behaviors spring from is modified -- either via evolution, or via some futuristic gene therapy.
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2012, 11:00:36 PM »

 syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory;
Quote
If there is a god, how in the freaking hell can he let shit like this happen?
. I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe
Quote
"Mankind's inhumanity" towards its fellow members is easily explained by the fact that we are primates.
Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other.  Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes  Roll Eyes Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."

HM
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 02:30:30 AM »

syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory; . I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe  Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other.  Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes  Roll Eyes Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."

HM
The problem is, what do you expect, that life is always a bowl of cherries, and that we go around singing the Smurfette "La La" song? Look at life on this planet, a constant struggle for survival. Man can, and I believe will change  it's path and how it treats one another, but it must be a concerted effort to do so...The fact is, that there is no one, no group that tries to be a standard bearer when it comes to truly exemplifiying "the Way"
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syntaxmachine
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2012, 03:27:33 AM »

syntaxmachine, I can appreciate what you are saying if the original question asked was about evolution. Let me refresh your memory; . I simply offered what I thought would be a good answer from a biblical perspective since he asked a biblical question. You believe  Maybe you could have answered his question by simply stating; there is no god and this shit happens because, we are primates and excitedly throw our shit at or shit on each other.  Oh and good luck with ameliorating this problem by educating people animals and culturally indoctrinating them into less harmful ways of behaving. Planet of the Apes  Roll Eyes Too much TV for you my friend you should read the book of Ecclesiastes; a logical man like yourself just might enjoy what Solomon has to say, "...vanity of vanities; all is vanity."

HM

You asked why humanity is so inhumane. I offered an explanation in evolutionary terms, given that evolution is true. You said your explanation was the only "logical" one, which I indicated was false. Given these facts I'm doubtful my words can genuinely be construed as off-topic. Also, I never suggested that education would ultimately be successful in changing humanity's ways; in fact, I explicitly said you were right that human behavior was "not liable to change." Your silliness in suggesting I watch too much TV (I don't watch any) is thus totally off base.

Also, thanks for the book recommendation but I've already read Ecclesiastes and formalized it into first-order logic, where a statement like "He that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" becomes
 
'∀x[(Px & Ixk)→Ixs]', where P=is a person, Ixy= x increases y, k=knowledge, and s=sorrow.

Given this it is ironic that you're telling me this is a book I need to read as a 'logical man'! It is my favorite book of KJV, so at least we can agree on something (i.e., that the book is good).
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