another bicep/trciep training question

[jpm101]

I agree about the delts (all three heads) getting enough work for growth when working chest and back. But...try convincing most guy's that this is true. No matter how you try to use reason, they are going to work delts. (actually working on their own insecurity's) So I threw in the shoulder thing.

Probably make more delt advancement by not having any special day for them...all over kill.If you think you need arm work, than fine for you. I have not done any direct arm work in years and things seem to be working out out well for me. Good Luck.

[Mr Nobody]

2 of the biggest and widest delt fellas that i knew didn't do hardly any delt work at all, and they claimed that they got their big delts from benches and rows, so you could have a pretty valid point man

Correct bench=front delt, rows = back delts so laterals would complete all three

[Donny]

I agree about the delts (all three heads) getting enough work for growth when working chest and back. But...try convincing most guy's that this is true. No matter how you try to use reason, they are going to work delts. (actually working on their own insecurity's) So I threw in the shoulder thing.

Probably make more delt advancement by not having any special day for them...all over kill.If you think you need arm work, than fine for you. I have not done any direct arm work in years and things seem to be working out out well for me. Good Luck.

I agree to a point but i think that shoulder presses tax the delts directly..do not get me wrong i know what you are saying and when i do Dips of course shoulders are trained. I do think however if you really want to build all 3 heads as you say.. you should give them attention. I have myself went through periods jpm101 where i did a very basic program with no arm training and it does get results but after that if you hit your arms directly you feel it!

[ritch]

2 of the biggest and widest delt fellas that i knew didn't do hardly any delt work at all, and they claimed that they got their big delts from benches and rows, so you could have a pretty valid point man

I understand what you're saying. I've even thought of doing just chest/back, legs, twice a week. My shoulders grow easily. But what you're saying about this reminds me of guys with great calves who don't need to train them...

Genetics!

I mean when the best physiques on the planet are built by doing direct delt and arm training, maybe it means something...

In the end it's another thing to try that will either work or not.

[Donny]

a good thread--

[dj181]

I understand what you're saying. I've even thought of doing just chest/back, legs, twice a week. My shoulders grow easily. But what you're saying about this reminds me of guys with great calves who don't need to train them...

Genetics!

I mean when the best physiques on the planet are built by doing direct delt and arm training, maybe it means something...

In the end it's another thing to try that will either work or not.

that's a very good point what you said about genetics

in fact, both of these fellas had pretty damn wide clavicals on 'em

[jpm101]

Will find that when a strong majority of Pro's are getting up for a show they will add direct delt work in their training protocol. Trying to bring out a finer detail to the shoulders them selves.  As a general rule, inclines (and versions of) seem to handle the delts quite well, as do upright rows for the upper back, in regular  off seasons training. If any delt work done, usually partial reps DB press or side rases.  Not that many sets included.

Donny..yes good thread. No "your mom". "so gay", etc. The high school kids must be away today.  Good Luck.


Side Bar: my arms seem to grow and keep size without any direct arm work. Confessing that, to me, any arm exercise is the most boring thing in the world.Rather chew glass than even approach doing arm work.

[Donny]

Will find that when a strong majority of Pro's are getting up for a show they will add direct delt work in their training protocol. Trying to bring out a finer detail to the shoulders them selves.  As a general rule, inclines (and versions of) seem to handle the delts quite well, as do upright rows for the upper back, in regular  off seasons training. If any delt work done, usually partial reps DB press or side rases.  Not that many sets included.

Donny..yes good thread. No "your mom". "so gay", etc. The high school kids must be away today.  Good Luck.


Side Bar: my arms seem to grow and keep size without any direct arm work. Confessing that, to me, any arm exercise is the most boring thing in the world.Rather chew glass than even approach doing arm work.

The kids on here are funny itīs almost pathetic...

[ritch]

also would like to see pics of guys advocating 0 arm or delt work...

[dj181]

here's one of the 2 guys that i was talking about

it's JM Blakely and he was a 700 pound bencher, and he's from my hometown of Columbus, Ohio

he trained me for a bit off and on some years ago, and i remember saying to him (after he gave me and a bud of mine our training program) "so what about the delt training?" and he looked me in the eye, as he spread his delts and said something like "look at this, i got these delts without doing direct delt work" LOL

sorry, i don't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like that

[dj181]

yeah id like to see that too.

btw, that powerlifter in the video, uhm, thats not how i want to look like.on a powerliftersdrug regiment and diet, yeah, delts might grow some without direct training.but dana lynn baileys delts look better

you know or knew the turkish fella know for his cuts and conditioning right?

i'm really curious how the dude trains or trained to look like that, so maybe you can share it with us if you don't mind?

i firmly believe that "conditioning training" is different than "size training", and in fact i'm arguing with a fella here on this site through pm's about this whole idea/concept of "conditioning training" vs. "size training"

[ritch]

yeah id like to see that too.

btw, that powerlifter in the video, uhm, thats not how i want to look like.on a powerliftersdrug regiment and diet, yeah, delts might grow some without direct training.but dana lynn baileys delts look better

very true. I was not really impressed by that guy. Looks big and strong, but lacking shape and aesthetics and that's where direct work comes in.

[dj181]

nah theres no such thing like conditioning training or size training, its just about how much drugs and how much calories, really.

yeh, hamdi, i can tell you what he eats for contest rep, its simple, 200gramms of protein from chicken and 100gramms carbs from rice and thats it.
no refeed bs, just that.
his training, after contests, he takes many months off training and eats whatever he wants and still looks big but gets a bit fat(for his standard).
when he trains, all the people say he trains like a pussy, as in light weights.works on bench with 2 plates, squats same, it does inded look very easy what he does, bit cable stuff, then chat to people between sets, etc.but dont be fooled, guy trains since 3oyears, is sparing his joints, focussing on movement and contraction, he knows what hes doing.it might look easy for ppl who dont know any better.
and hes in and out the gym within 40minutes.
hes said to be agressive towards end of dieting, but i always seen him as being very relaxed kind of guy, he uses a special tranquilizer, most ppl know that

thanks alot for that reply man

so he only eat roughly 1200 cals pre-contest? 200 pro grams=800 cals and 100 grams carbs=400 cals

[deadz]

guys back into training heavy after a long time. and was wondering if bi+ tris can be done on the same day?  should i alternate it or its better to 1st do triceps then biceps.

or

 its is better to do chest n tris and back n biceps??

( i only train 3 alternate days in the week)

chest/bi
back
shoulders/tri
legs

my fav set-up

[mdn250]

HHH I always train tris first, something about the pump of the biceps stopping full contraction of the tris if you train bis first.

I agree. Plus you can get the bigger muscle first and do dips, closegrips or overheads...and like you said doing DB overhead extensions with two hands is hard after biceps.

Chaos I have been back into training for a month now after a few years layoff due to severe Crohns Disease and some other personal problems...I find your posts in this forum real good info. Thanks.

MDN

[oenguinseatsocks]

why's that?

and on a side note, it seems to me that bis aren't as involved in back work as tris are in chest work

benches, dips, and push-ups all heavily involve the tris, but rows, pulldowns, pullups don't involve the bis so heavily, with the exception of underhand grip chins or pulldowns

yeah i've noticed the same thing

i heard some dude at the gym say that he trains back/tris and then chest/bis so that the respective muscles aren't as worn out when he works them... is it just me or is this rockfuck stupid?

[Donny]

yeah i've noticed the same thing

i heard some dude at the gym say that he trains back/tris and then chest/bis so that the respective muscles aren't as worn out when he works them... is it just me or is this rockfuck stupid?

Itīs not stupid.. just another way to do a split. I used to train back+biceps, chest+triceps ( some pair shoulders+triceps) but i find now i like training arms with shoulders( larry scott said they tie in together and he had the best arms in the world). If you really want to concentrate on arms train them on their own or as you wrote above Back+triceps and chest+ biceps.

[Montague]

I recently switched to training arms & shoulders together. This was before knowing that Scott did the same, which I strangely did not learn until recently.

I've tried doing tri's after back, chest, and shoulders - same with bi's. I've also done shoulders, chest, back, and arms on their own respective days.

My current upper-body split is chest/back/traps on the same day, and delts/tri's/bi's on the same day. I've become increasingly happy with this split and plan to stick with it for the next several months.

[Donny]

My source of Information about Larry Scott is from "Bodybuilding Basics" from Robert Kennedy ISBN 0-8069-7392-7 itīs on page 115 in the Q&A section...works great for me.

[dj181]

I recently switched to training arms & shoulders together. This was before knowing that Scott did the same, which I strangely did not learn until recently.

I've tried doing tri's after back, chest, and shoulders - same with bi's. I've also done shoulders, chest, back, and arms on their own respective days.

My current upper-body split is chest/back/traps on the same day, and delts/tri's/bi's on the same day. I've become increasingly happy with this split and plan to stick with it for the next several months.

actually, legs/chest and back/delts and arms is a pretty common split

Vinny G recommended it as did Mentzer

[kimo]

any good for supersetting two biceps exercices . l heard itseldom good .

[dj181]

any good for supersetting two biceps exercices . l heard itseldom good .

AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls

[Mr Nobody]

AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls

Agreed.

[Donny]

AJ recommended curls supersetted with chins or close-grip palms up pulldowns, but i think that it's actually beter to do the compound move 1st and then the iso, like chin or pulldown 1st and then right after do barbell or dumbbell curls

so we agree supersets work and direct arm training..

[Mr Nobody]

so we agree supersets work and direct arm training..

Yes you need direct arm training.