Romney as Audit Chair Saw Marriott Son of BOSS Shelter Defy IRS

[Straw Man]

here's a clue as to why Romney might not want to release his tax returns
when he was the chairman of the audit committee on the board of Marriot International they used various tax shelters, some of which where characterized by the IRS as  “fictitious,” “artificial,” “spectral,” an “illusion” and a “scheme.”

I'd be willing to bet that Romney used a few of these schemes himself to pay little or no taxes
These gray market tax shelters may have not been deemed illegal at the time but it would look really bad for Romney if he used these "schemes" to avoid paying any taxes at all


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-22/romney-as-auditing-chairman-saw-marriott-son-of-boss-tax-shelter-defy-irs.html

[doison]

Are people honestly outraged that he may have legally looked for ways to pay the least amount he could in taxes? 

Isn't an entire industry of tax accountants based on that same principal?  No one pays more taxes than they have to.  Even the people bitching that they should be paying more taxes (like Warren Buffett) don't pay any more than they have to.   

I couldn't give two shits if he worked the system to pay the least amount possible because every single person does the same thing each year.  No one goes over their taxes looking for ways to pay the maximum legal amount; they go through looking for the minimum legal amount, even hiring expert tax accountants to help them pay even less. 

[Primemuscle]

Are people honestly outraged that he may have legally looked for ways to pay the least amount he could in taxes? 

Isn't an entire industry of tax accountants based on that same principal?  No one pays more taxes than they have to.  Even the people bitching that they should be paying more taxes (like Warren Buffett) don't pay any more than they have to.   

I couldn't give two shits if he worked the system to pay the least amount possible because every single person does the same thing each year.  No one goes over their taxes looking for ways to pay the maximum legal amount; they go through looking for the minimum legal amount, even hiring expert tax accountants to help them pay even less. 

Would it make a difference to you if it turned out some of his tax shelters were actually not legal? Or, do you think anything goes?

[SLYY]

Are people honestly outraged that he may have legally looked for ways to pay the least amount he could in taxes?  

Isn't an entire industry of tax accountants based on that same principal?  No one pays more taxes than they have to.  Even the people bitching that they should be paying more taxes (like Warren Buffett) don't pay any more than they have to.  

I couldn't give two shits if he worked the system to pay the least amount possible because every single person does the same thing each year.  No one goes over their taxes looking for ways to pay the maximum legal amount; they go through looking for the minimum legal amount, even hiring expert tax accountants to help them pay even less.  

You mean, like a loophole, Doison?

Would you "give two shits if" James Holmes succeeded with an insanity defense?

[doison]

Would it make a difference to you if it turned out some of his tax shelters were actually not legal? Or, do you think anything goes?

I think there's more important things to worry about regardless.  

If some of the tax shelters were illegal, I wouldn't look at it as a positive, that's for sure.  I would still find it a minor issue compared to the current state of the Union, its economic sluggishness of nearly half a decade, and the jobless rates that show no signs of improvement in the near future.  


Above everything else, I think the fact that a presidential election seems to be based around the proponents of both sides arguing on BEHALF of their side by saying "the other guy is actually WORSE than our guy, can you believe that!?!" says more about how piss-poor things are than anything.  

I've said before that people tend to choose their political party more because of their dislike of the OTHER party than any real belief in the worth of their own party.  People are always more fired up to vote AGAINST someone than they are to vote FOR someone.  Right now there are a lot of people more than ready to vote AGAINST Obama...and the Obama campaign is working its ass off to find ways to get people fired up to vote against Romney, but potentially unflattering tax returns from years ago isn't going to have any legitimate impact on people who've lost their jobs, had their home values disintegrate, and find themselves being vilified by the current administration for not wanting to give up even more.  
If the economy was revving forward, everyone had jobs, and the economic outlook was shining bright....then Romney's tax returns would be much higher on my list of "things to base my presidential vote on," but that's not the case.

[Soul Crusher]

Would it make a difference to you if it turned out some of his tax shelters were actually not legal? Or, do you think anything goes?

Was he ever audited by the irs? 

Personally i tell my cpa to do almost anything to the point of criminal liability to avoid taxes to the leviathon   

[doison]

Was he ever audited by the irs? 

Personally i tell my cpa to do almost anything to the point of criminal liability to avoid taxes to the leviathon   

So does everyone else....but you're not running for president against Obama.  If you were...then you'd be an inhuman bastard because of it.

[George Whorewell]

 

Romney is so squeaky clean that he craps rainbows. 10% of all his money goes to his church. He took no salary when he was Gov. of Mass. He gave away all of the money his dad left him. He is the epitome of by the book.

Who the fuck thinks a self made billionaire politician ( Republican no less) would be dumb enough to break the law in this political/ economic climate and then run for president ( twice)?

[Straw Man]

Romney is so squeaky clean that he craps rainbows. 10% of all his money goes to his church. He took no salary when he was Gov. of Mass. He gave away all of the money his dad left him. He is the epitome of by the book.

Who the fuck thinks a self made billionaire politician ( Republican no less) would be dumb enough to break the law in this political/ economic climate and then run for president ( twice)?

yeah, that's never happened before

who would think a billionaire could possibly fuck up

[George Whorewell]

yeah, that's never happened before

who would think a billionaire could possibly fuck up

Unless its Obama, the MSM always goes out of its way to find out about misdeeds by right leaning politicians. If your a Republican, its a forgone conclusion that your guilty of something-- but if you already ran for Prez once and it wasn't exposed, why would it be exposed the second time around?

If Obama's camp had ANYTHING of substance, it would've been released already.

[Straw Man]

Unless its Obama, the MSM always goes out of its way to find out about misdeeds by right leaning politicians. If your a Republican, its a forgone conclusion that your guilty of something-- but if you already ran for Prez once and it wasn't exposed, why would it be exposed the second time around?

If Obama's camp had ANYTHING of substance, it would've been released already.

who is going to investigate someone who drops out of the race

is anyone investigating Cain or Santorum ?

[George Whorewell]

who is going to investigate someone who drops out of the race

is anyone investigating Cain or Santorum ?

 

Romney has been the presumptive GOP nominee for more than 1 year. He was on the short list to be McCain's VP in 2008. He is supposedly the architect of Obamacare. He is a former Governor who comes from a political family. Are you seriously dumb enough to believe that magically, out of nowhere, the media just randomly looked into his background and came across something damaging regarding his old tax returns? If there was anything of substance, it would have already been released. This is all conjecture and innuendo with zero facts.

[Straw Man]

Romney has been the presumptive GOP nominee for more than 1 year. He was on the short list to be McCain's VP in 2008. He is supposedly the architect of Obamacare. He is a former Governor who comes from a political family. Are you seriously dumb enough to believe that magically, out of nowhere, the media just randomly looked into his background and came across something damaging regarding his old tax returns? If there was anything of substance, it would have already been released. This is all conjecture and innuendo with zero facts.

Romney gave McCain 20 something years of tax returns so there should be no problem with giving the American people the same thing

the media can't find anything damaging regarding his past tax returns because they haven't seen them (this is obviously what Romney knows which is why he won't release them)

[240 is Back]

the returns woudl show lots of things like "$77,000 for pet horse in 2010" and other items.   Something to blurry the political waters and make people not like him.

But I'd bet my double-wide that he did nothing illegal.  People that rich don't usually need to break the laws - they're the ones writing them haha.

Romney is not good with people but he is a brilliant man - he's close to achieving the goal of being president - and that's after conquering other goals like running Games, being governor, and making hundreds of millions of bucks.  NO WAY he risks his freedom by breaking a single law. 


IMO, nobody thinks he broke the law.  They just know that it's way more exciting for media to discuss a billionaire's writeoffs, then "day 1100 of a shitty economy, all is usual".

[Straw Man]

the returns woudl show lots of things like "$77,000 for pet horse in 2010" and other items.   Something to blurry the political waters and make people not like him.

But I'd bet my double-wide that he did nothing illegal.  People that rich don't usually need to break the laws - they're the ones writing them haha.

Romney is not good with people but he is a brilliant man - he's close to achieving the goal of being president - and that's after conquering other goals like running Games, being governor, and making hundreds of millions of bucks.  NO WAY he risks his freedom by breaking a single law. 


IMO, nobody thinks he broke the law.  They just know that it's way more exciting for media to discuss a billionaire's writeoffs, then "day 1100 of a shitty economy, all is usual".

Where did you get this idea that Romney can't make mistakes or be driven byy greed to bend or break the law?

[240 is Back]

Where did you get this idea that Romney can't make mistakes or be driven byy greed to bend or break the law?

Hey, you know me - If I thought he was a lawbreaker, I'd be the first to say it lol.

I don't, however.   I see him as the kind of guy who, if anything, is scared of a lot of situations.  I don't see him fcking up his major lifelong plan (build wealth, be governor, make huge patriotic mark with olympics, then presidential runs), over a few hundred million when he is already probably worth a billion, or close to.

To me - the people who give the finger to the law, and cheat on taxes to the tune of hundreds of millions - they're mavericks with a little crazy to them.  Romney is the OPPOSITE of that.  He doesn't take a crap without first confirming everyone in the adjacent rooms won't be offended by the odor.  He won't take a position on DREAM, won't attack obamacare anymore... he's campaigning like he's thinking "just don't mess this up man".


I was right about a lot of shit from Cain to ZImmerman, and I'm probably wrong about more.  But I'd bet this months food stamps that you can scour those tax returns for a year, and find nothing illegal.  He doesn't need to, and no way he'd let himself be put in a position to be toppled over taxes.  Dude wants to be prez too bad. 

[tonymctones]

You mean, like a loophole, Doison?

Would you "give two shits if" James Holmes succeeded with an insanity defense?

I see, so now Romeny is the equivilent as James Holmes?

do you agree with this straw?

240?

[SLYY]

I see, so now Romeny is the equivilent as James Holmes?

do you agree with this straw?

240?

It is clear that you do not see. 

It is evident that you lack the intelligence to comprehend a straight forward analogy.

[240 is Back]

I see, so now Romeny is the equivilent as James Holmes?
do you agree with this straw?
240?

In what world is such a comparison acceptable, or even make sense?   Who in their right mind compares the two?  I dont see that on this thread.  Nobody is doing that, comparing this madman with a successful businessman who wants to be president.

nobody is doing that here.

[doison]

the returns woudl show lots of things like "$77,000 for pet horse in 2010" and other items.   Something to blurry the political waters and make people not like him.

But I'd bet my double-wide that he did nothing illegal.  People that rich don't usually need to break the laws - they're the ones writing them haha.

Romney is not good with people but he is a brilliant man - he's close to achieving the goal of being president - and that's after conquering other goals like running Games, being governor, and making hundreds of millions of bucks.  NO WAY he risks his freedom by breaking a single law. 


IMO, nobody thinks he broke the law.  They just know that it's way more exciting for media to discuss a billionaire's writeoffs, then "day 1100 of a shitty economy, all is usual".

Who hacked 240's account?  Whoever it did is being extremely logical here....hopefully they changed the password so they can continue using it. 

[240 is Back]

Who hacked 240's account?  Whoever it did is being extremely logical here....hopefully they changed the password so they can continue using it. 

LOL.   I smelled bullshit a mile away on cain's "yeah, i'll take a polygraph" and "I never did anything inappropriate in 43 years..."

At the same time, I smell "scared like a MFer of a jail cell" and "lacked the self-destructive renegade gene" on Romney.

Scan those tax documents - they'll be embarassing and could cost him the presidency.  But not a single law will be broken.  Romney doesn't have that in him.    He said it himself "If I lose the nomination, I'll still have a great life" - and he is right.  No way he screws that up to hide 20 million or make an extra 50 million.  He knows he'll never spend 2% of his net worth - he's earning money for his great-grandkids at this point.

[doison]

LOL.   I smelled bullshit a mile away on cain's "yeah, i'll take a polygraph" and "I never did anything inappropriate in 43 years..."

At the same time, I smell "scared like a MFer of a jail cell" and "lacked the self-destructive renegade gene" on Romney.

Scan those tax documents - they'll be embarassing and could cost him the presidency.  But not a single law will be broken.  Romney doesn't have that in him.    He said it himself "If I lose the nomination, I'll still have a great life" - and he is right.  No way he screws that up to hide 20 million or make an extra 50 million.  He knows he'll never spend 2% of his net worth - he's earning money for his great-grandkids at this point.

Exactly.  He knows that hypocrisy knows no bounds....and Obama's campaign will take full advantage of that with his tax records.  

If he releases the records it will show that Romney found ways to pay less taxes, which Obama will use to vilify Romney in every way imaginable.  Despite the fact that the whole point of "doing your taxes" is to make sure you're not paying more than you have to....and an entire CAREER FIELD of TAX ACCOUNTANTS exists to make sure people pay as little as possible in taxes, there will be hypocrites out there who will look at Romney as some kind of evil cheat for doing the exact same thing they've done every single year on their own tax forms.

You can't turn on the TV during tax season without seeing commercial after commercial from all the different accounting firms advertising their ability to reduce your taxes.  They even advertise that they can go back over your taxes from PAST YEARS and get money for you retroactively....but that won't matter to a large number of the voting public.  

You will never be able to structure a campaign that trusts its voters to be intelligent, but you can ALWAYS count on their hypocrisy!




*This goes for both sides.  If the tables were turned, there would be plenty of hypocrites that pretended to be outraged that Obama could possibly be paying less taxes through the same legal methods as everyone else.

[Straw Man]

What Marriot did (and what Romney may have done) is to create quasi legal to fraudulent shell companies and other schemes for the "sole purpose" of avoiding taxes

This is not in any way the  same thing as taking advantage of every possible legal and legitimate way to lower your tax  liability - things like interest deductions (for mortgages or business equipment), depreciation, legitimate business expenses,  charitable contributions, funding a SEP or some other type of retirement account

When people argue that Romney wouldn't be so dumb as to do this or it all would have come out by now I just laugh.   The returns have never been released so we have no way of knowing and the idea that Romney wouldn't be so dumb as to do this  is just absurd.  The guy makes dumb mistakes every day in real time and he's been involvded  in elaborate tax avoidence schemes for years, probably  decades on the corporate level so why would he not think he could get away with such things on a personal level.
Your average sole proprietor does a little tax cheating here and there so why not a worth hundreds of millions of dollars who has the means and the advisors to do so.

[tonymctones]

Straw do you think that the IRS would have seen something that looked fishy and investigated if they did?

[Straw Man]

Straw do you think that the IRS would have seen something that looked fishy and investigated if they did?

That's exactly what the IRS did with the Marriot tax shelters which were put into place when Romney was their chair of their audit committe:

from the article

A federal appeals court invalidated the maneuver in a 2009 ruling, siding with the U.S. Department of Justice, which called Marriott’s transaction and attempted tax benefits “fictitious,” “artificial,” “spectral,” an “illusion” and a “scheme.” Marriott had argued the plan predated government efforts to close such shelters

It's also possible that Romney did not file the required form on his 2010 return (the only complete return he has so far released to the public) and as this article points out that one purpose of such accounts is to avoid paying taxes on  income from offshore companies (something he did NOT do in 2010 since he disclosed the account)

I'm not accusing Romney of breaking any laws but the fact is that we just don't know and if the IRS has never investigated then they don't know either.      There are plenty  of everyday people that get away with tax evasion and certainly there are plenty of rich people with even more knowledge and ability to do so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/mitt-romney-taxes-2010_n_1683084.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012