Flexible Dieting

[mass243]

Or maybe intermittent fasting is good for you.

Do you have personal experience with this ?
I've been reading about the concept a bit lately and find it interesting.

[The Onion]

Yes I know this. Meal frequency etc doesn't matter.

What's the take on protein intake?
I read a study where people consumed only 800 calories per day for 12 weeks, only they only ate 80g of protein per day. The did weight training 3x a week and they maintained their muscle.
So is protein intake not that relavant?

You mean this one?

"OBJECTIVE: Utilization of very-low-calorie diets (VLCD) for weight loss results in loss of lean body weight (LBW) and a decrease in resting metabolic rate (RMR). The addition of aerobic exercise does not prevent this. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of intensive, high volume resistance training combined with a VLCD on these parameters.
METHODS: Twenty subjects (17 women, three men), mean age 38 years, were randomly assigned to either standard treatment control plus diet (C+D), n = 10, or resistance exercise plus diet (R+D), n = 10. Both groups consumed 800 kcal/day liquid formula diets for 12 weeks. The C+D group exercised 1 hour four times/week by walking, biking or stair climbing. The R+D group performed resistance training 3 days/week at 10 stations increasing from two sets of 8 to 15 repetitions to four sets of 8 to 15 repetitions by 12 weeks. Groups were similar at baseline with respect to weight, body composition, aerobic capacity, and resting metabolic rate.
RESULTS: Maximum oxygen consumption (Max VO2) increased significantly (p<0.05) but equally in both groups. Body weight decreased significantly more (p<0.01) in C+D than R+D. The C+D group lost a significant (p<0.05) amount of LBW (51 to 47 kg). No decrease in LBW was observed in R+D. In addition, R+D had an increase (p<0.05) in RMR O2 ml/kg/min (2.6 to 3.1). The 24 hour RMR decreased (p<0.05) in the C+D group.
CONCLUSION: The addition of an intensive, high volume resistance training program resulted in preservation of LBW and RMR during weight loss with a VLCD." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10204826


70-120 grams of protein per day is most likely enough to "maximize your gains", even if you're on a modest cycle. Aim for the higher value if you're a big boy (I have some references but please don't make me post them as they require some tedious explanation).

Protein is good for satiety though.

[The Onion]

Do you have personal experience with this ?
I've been reading about the concept a bit lately and find it interesting.

I've been doing it for a long time and highly recommend it.

It's a bitch in the beginning though. Stimulants help a lot.

[animal1991]

You mean this one?

"OBJECTIVE: Utilization of very-low-calorie diets (VLCD) for weight loss results in loss of lean body weight (LBW) and a decrease in resting metabolic rate (RMR). The addition of aerobic exercise does not prevent this. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of intensive, high volume resistance training combined with a VLCD on these parameters.
METHODS: Twenty subjects (17 women, three men), mean age 38 years, were randomly assigned to either standard treatment control plus diet (C+D), n = 10, or resistance exercise plus diet (R+D), n = 10. Both groups consumed 800 kcal/day liquid formula diets for 12 weeks. The C+D group exercised 1 hour four times/week by walking, biking or stair climbing. The R+D group performed resistance training 3 days/week at 10 stations increasing from two sets of 8 to 15 repetitions to four sets of 8 to 15 repetitions by 12 weeks. Groups were similar at baseline with respect to weight, body composition, aerobic capacity, and resting metabolic rate.
RESULTS: Maximum oxygen consumption (Max VO2) increased significantly (p<0.05) but equally in both groups. Body weight decreased significantly more (p<0.01) in C+D than R+D. The C+D group lost a significant (p<0.05) amount of LBW (51 to 47 kg). No decrease in LBW was observed in R+D. In addition, R+D had an increase (p<0.05) in RMR O2 ml/kg/min (2.6 to 3.1). The 24 hour RMR decreased (p<0.05) in the C+D group.
CONCLUSION: The addition of an intensive, high volume resistance training program resulted in preservation of LBW and RMR during weight loss with a VLCD." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10204826


70-120 grams of protein per day is most likely enough to "maximize your gains", even if you're on a modest cycle. Aim for the higher value if you're a big boy (I have some references but please don't make me post them as they require some tedious explanation).

Protein is good for satiety though.

Yes, exactly this one. And I've learned in physiology class today muscle is ALWAYS the last thing to go in caloric restriction. Your body eats muscle only as a last resort after it has gotten energy from body fats.
I don't know why people preach muscle loss on a calorie restricted diet?

[DroppingPlates]

You mean this one?

"OBJECTIVE: Utilization of very-low-calorie diets (VLCD) for weight loss results in loss of lean body weight (LBW) and a decrease in resting metabolic rate (RMR). The addition of aerobic exercise does not prevent this. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of intensive, high volume resistance training combined with a VLCD on these parameters.
METHODS: Twenty subjects (17 women, three men), mean age 38 years, were randomly assigned to either standard treatment control plus diet (C+D), n = 10, or resistance exercise plus diet (R+D), n = 10. Both groups consumed 800 kcal/day liquid formula diets for 12 weeks. The C+D group exercised 1 hour four times/week by walking, biking or stair climbing. The R+D group performed resistance training 3 days/week at 10 stations increasing from two sets of 8 to 15 repetitions to four sets of 8 to 15 repetitions by 12 weeks. Groups were similar at baseline with respect to weight, body composition, aerobic capacity, and resting metabolic rate.
RESULTS: Maximum oxygen consumption (Max VO2) increased significantly (p<0.05) but equally in both groups. Body weight decreased significantly more (p<0.01) in C+D than R+D. The C+D group lost a significant (p<0.05) amount of LBW (51 to 47 kg). No decrease in LBW was observed in R+D. In addition, R+D had an increase (p<0.05) in RMR O2 ml/kg/min (2.6 to 3.1). The 24 hour RMR decreased (p<0.05) in the C+D group.
CONCLUSION: The addition of an intensive, high volume resistance training program resulted in preservation of LBW and RMR during weight loss with a VLCD." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10204826


70-120 grams of protein per day is most likely enough to "maximize your gains", even if you're on a modest cycle. Aim for the higher value if you're a big boy (I have some references but please don't make me post them as they require some tedious explanation).

Protein is good for satiety though.

A few comments,
3 men is nothing (statistically irrelevant), only 17 females also, BTW
How muscular were those subjects? (oh wait, most of them were women)
How intense were those weight training, excuse me, "resistance training" sessions?
Even a modest cycle will prob boost your protein synthesis, but ok, that's just a wild guess

[The Onion]

Yes, exactly this one. And I've learned in physiology class today muscle is ALWAYS the last thing to go in caloric restriction. Your body eats muscle only as a last resort after it has gotten energy from body fats.
I don't know why people preach muscle loss on a calorie restricted diet?

Clever marketing from supp-companies and some sort of psychological aspect - bros are afraid of losing muscle.

As long as you're doing resistance training you shouldn't be too afraid of losing muscle while dieting.

If you haven't done it already - read up on AMPK and mTor signaling.

[The Onion]

A few comments,
3 men is nothing (statistically irrelevant), only 17 females also, BTW
How muscular were those subjects? (oh wait, most of them were women)
How intense were those weight training, excuse me, "resistance training" sessions?
Even a modest cycle will prob boost your protein synthesis, but ok, that's just a wild guess

I just posted the abstract that were mentioned earlier in the thread, nothing else.

Maybe you'll find this one more interesting. Not ladies this time but the participants still do "resistance training", just like the girlies.

"Comparison of protein intakes on strength, body composition and hormonal changes were examined in 23 experienced collegiate strength/power athletes participating in a 12-week resistance training program. Subjects were stratified into three groups depending upon their daily consumption of protein; below recommended levels (BL; 1.0 - 1.4 g.kg-1.day-1; n = , recommended levels (RL; 1.6 - 1.8 g.kg-1.day-1; n = 7) and above recommended levels (AL; > 2.0 g.kg-1.day-1; n = . Subjects were assessed for strength [one-repetition maximum (1-RM) bench press and squat] and body composition. Resting blood samples were analyzed for total testosterone, cortisol, growth hormone, and insulin-like growth factor. No differences were seen in energy intake (3,171 +/- 577 kcal) between the groups, and the energy intake for all groups were also below the recommended levels for strength/power athletes. No significant changes were seen in body mass, lean body mass or fat mass in any group. Significant improvements in 1-RM bench press and 1-RM squat were seen in all three groups, however no differences between the groups were observed. Subjects in AL experienced a 22% and 42% greater change in Delta 1-RM squat and Delta 1-RM bench press than subjects in RL, however these differences were not significant. No significant changes were seen in any of the resting hormonal concentrations. The results of this study do not provide support for protein intakes greater than recommended levels in collegiate strength/power athletes for body composition improvements, or alterations in resting hormonal concentrations." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500968

[POB]

My current diet is pretty much this:

4 Egg Whites
2 Whole Eggs
60g Oats

PWO
2 Servings Whey Protein

4 Egg Whites
2 Whole Eggs
60g Oats

1 Can Tuna
1 Apple

1 Can Tuna
1 Apple

6 Whole Eggs

±2000 kCal
±220g Protein
±110g Carbs
±65g Fat

That's easy to do away from home,if you get sick of the tuna throw soy sauce in it,also make sure its the blue can( solid white in water). You can boil a few eggs and throw them in your cooler for snacks. Eggs and fish should keep you lean and make sure you hit each muscle group once a week. You can do it in 3, 4 days would be better. Days you can't make it to the gym, ride a bike or run 30min before class. Drink a ton of water all day and only black coffee if you need stimulants

[animal1991]

That's easy to do away from home,if you get sick of the tuna throw soy sauce in it,also make sure its the blue can( solid white in water). You can boil a few eggs and throw them in your cooler for snacks. Eggs and fish should keep you lean and make sure you hit each muscle group once a week. You can do it in 3, 4 days would be better. Days you can't make it to the gym, ride a bike or run 30min before class. Drink a ton of water all day and only black coffee if you need stimulants

Thanks.
Its pretty low calories (I'm 6'1, 240#, 15-16% BF), but I want a bit of a faster rate of fat loss and I have a slowish metabolism. I have not tested it yet but I'm sure I can maintain my weight on <3000 cals a day.

[animal1991]

What about weight training routine?
I'm thinking about the following one? (Looking for a change from typical BB splits):
Day One – Pull
Deadlifts – 5x5
Rows (barbell, dumbbell, machine or t-bar) – 5x5
Pull/Chin Ups - 5x5
Barbell/Dumbbell curls – 5 sets x 5 reps
Day Two - Push
Flat, incline or decline barbell, dumbbell, of
machine bench press – 5x5
Military, dumbbell or machine press – 5x5
Dips or close-grip bench press – 5x5
Day Three - Legs
Back or front squats – 5x5
Hack Squat – 4x10-15
Standing or seated calf raises – 3x10-15
I'm training for strenght and fat loss at the moment and thinking of including sprinting/gpp on off days.

[DroppingPlates]

What about weight training routine?
I'm thinking about the following one? (Looking for a change from typical BB splits):
Day One – Pull
Deadlifts – 5x5
Rows (barbell, dumbbell, machine or t-bar) – 5x5
Pull/Chin Ups - 5x5
Barbell/Dumbbell curls – 5 sets x 5 reps
Day Two - Push
Flat, incline or decline barbell, dumbbell, of
machine bench press – 5x5
Military, dumbbell or machine press – 5x5
Dips or close-grip bench press – 5x5
Day Three - Legs
Back or front squats – 5x5
Hack Squat – 4x10-15
Standing or seated calf raises – 3x10-15
I'm training for strenght and fat loss at the moment and thinking of including sprinting/gpp on off days.

A push-pull split is what I'm doing since a few weeks (again), and I love it!
I choose for higher reps/lower volume, but there's nothing wrong with low reps/high volume if your joints can handle the heavier loads.

[Dr Dutch]

What about weight training routine?
I'm thinking about the following one? (Looking for a change from typical BB splits):
Day One – Pull
Deadlifts – 5x5
Rows (barbell, dumbbell, machine or t-bar) – 5x5
Pull/Chin Ups - 5x5
Barbell/Dumbbell curls – 5 sets x 5 reps
Day Two - Push
Flat, incline or decline barbell, dumbbell, of
machine bench press – 5x5
Military, dumbbell or machine press – 5x5
Dips or close-grip bench press – 5x5
Day Three - Legs
Back or front squats – 5x5
Hack Squat – 4x10-15
Standing or seated calf raises – 3x10-15
I'm training for strenght and fat loss at the moment and thinking of including sprinting/gpp on off days.

ask Musclecenter for this kind of complexity...

[DroppingPlates]

ask Musclecenter for this kind of complexity...

On his fortune cookie: "20 x 20"

[Dr Dutch]

I think Musclecenter does the biggest training volume of all getbiggers..

[Metabolic]

Yes I know this. Meal frequency etc doesn't matter.

What's the take on protein intake?
I read a study where people consumed only 800 calories per day for 12 weeks, only they only ate 80g of protein per day. The did weight training 3x a week and they maintained their muscle.
So is protein intake not that relavant?

Yes it is, theres lots of research on it, you can read more at bodyrecomposition.com

[DroppingPlates]

Yeah, I've tried to discuss this with him, but he's a stubborn guy (and formal Mr Taiwan)

[Dr Dutch]

But he always updates his pic, we must admit that one...

[DroppingPlates]

AttentionCenter

[calfzilla]

Do you have personal experience with this ?
I've been reading about the concept a bit lately and find it interesting.

No becuse with my current schedule it would be very difficult. But it seems interesting and I want to try it when my schedule normalizes.

[Borracho]

Don't know what the problem is junior.... If you can't lose weight while being busy than no way i see you being able to do it with all the time in the world. And wha'ts wrong with hitting the gym 3 times a week?

[animal1991]

Don't know what the problem is junior.... If you can't lose weight while being busy than no way i see you being able to do it with all the time in the world. And wha'ts wrong with hitting the gym 3 times a week?

Yes, I guess the real problem I have is time management. Just got to get that sorted then I'm good to go!

[The Onion]

No becuse with my current schedule it would be very difficult. But it seems interesting and I want to try it when my schedule normalizes.

Just curious but what kind of schedule are you running that doesn't suit an intermittent fasting eating pattern?

IF makes things a lot easier for me and I usually work 24-hour shifts. I get up at 05.30 AM and eat my first (and sometimes only) meal at 5 PM on workdays. I only bring one meal to my job, which is very comfortable.

[calfzilla]

I work a couple overnight shifts a week. That's really what s Rees things up the most. Otherwise I could manage.

[The Onion]

I work a couple overnight shifts a week. That's really what s Rees things up the most. Otherwise I could manage.

I see. Night shifts can really mess up your appetite. I had big problems when I first started IF and worked during the night, my appetite was ravaging after I got home in the morning.