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Author Topic: best way to get ripped Cut bodyfat  (Read 5283 times)
jets7772003coach
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« on: November 10, 2005, 04:55:54 PM »

Im a 26yr old male. Im 5'7 180lbs. I can flucuate my weight from 167 to 193 fairly easy.
Ive always wanted the shredded look. But one problem, I lose the weight and still (IMO) look chubby.
I can start to see my uppers abs but that little fat around the belly button wont go away.
I feel that Im pretty strong I squat 400 and Bench 305
Any help would be Appreciated
Roger
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2005, 05:27:15 PM »

This isnt in depth.

Cardio 20 Min's 3-5 times a week. if you do 3 times a week i would throw a 45 min session in at least 1 or 2 days.
Eat between 5 to 7+ meals a day, spread everything out evenly.
keep your  protein between 200- 250+ a day.
carbs give yourself low-moderate-high days. 150 low, 250 mod, 350+ high
fats keep around 50 grams a day from your meats, fish oils and nuts or natural peanutbutter.

Do not give yourself cheat meals until you get into the grove of your new eating habits and you start seeing results.
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2005, 05:52:34 PM »

Clen stacked w/ DNP, yohimbine HCL and ephedra.         




 Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2005, 06:16:33 PM »

What about Winstrol. Ive done alot of research on it. But its very hard to find
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2005, 06:27:46 PM »

This isnt in depth.

Cardio 20 Min's 3-5 times a week. if you do 3 times a week i would throw a 45 min session in at least 1 or 2 days.
Eat between 5 to 7+ meals a day, spread everything out evenly.
keep your  protein between 200- 250+ a day.
carbs give yourself low-moderate-high days. 150 low, 250 mod, 350+ high
fats keep around 50 grams a day from your meats, fish oils and nuts or natural peanutbutter.

Do not give yourself cheat meals until you get into the grove of your new eating habits and you start seeing results.
Thanks Big E
Pretty much on base with most of that.
Appreciate it
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2005, 09:47:39 PM »

If you gonna run juice to do it you still need cardio, but tren/winny/clen would be great
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2005, 01:17:56 AM »

you guys forgot about the cytomel!  Shocked  Shocked  Shocked
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2005, 07:53:51 AM »

What about Winstrol. Ive done alot of research on it. But its very hard to find




What about a good clean diet, I would try that first.
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2005, 01:32:10 PM »

Jet also try lipo-6 by nutrex. worked great for me this summer, also take CLA before every food meal.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2005, 02:39:49 PM »

Jet also try lipo-6 by nutrex. worked great for me this summer, also take CLA before every food meal.
Ill try that I have heard some good reviews about it. Is it at GNC?

Ive had luck with Tight In the past.(SANN Products)
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2005, 03:23:23 PM »

My girl and I swear by Redline by VPX Sports.

But the liquid form not caps.

Use what you want.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2005, 03:26:06 PM »

CLA blows.  Overpriced w/ no proven human benefit, at least at recommended intake levels.
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 08:51:46 PM »

CLA blows.  Overpriced w/ no proven human benefit, at least at recommended intake levels.

No human benefit?!  I'm curious what studies you've been reading. Huh  In terms of immediate fat loss, yeah of course it's not a vital supp, but the studies out do show prolonged benefit...in fact it's one of the only FEW supplements that most researchers would recommend.  Grin


eh, whatever
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2005, 09:05:39 PM »

VPX products are all unreal great stuff.  But very pricey
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2005, 12:27:09 AM »

No human benefit?!  I'm curious what studies you've been reading. Huh  In terms of immediate fat loss, yeah of course it's not a vital supp, but the studies out do show prolonged benefit...in fact it's one of the only FEW supplements that most researchers would recommend.  Grin

I suppose if you feel it's working for you, then more power to ya'.  But I've read too much that goes the other way.  Here's a few things:


--Efficacy and safety of dietary supplements containing CLA for the treatment of obesity: evidence from animal and human studies.

Larsen TM, Toubro S, Astrup A.

Department of Human Nutrition, Center for Advanced Food Studies, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, DK-1958 Frederiksberg C, Denmark.

Dietary supplements containing conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) are widely promoted as weight loss agents available over the counter and via the Internet. In this review, we evaluate the efficacy and safety of CLA supplementation based on peer-reviewed published results from randomized, placebo-controlled, human intervention trials lasting more than 4 weeks. We also review findings from experimental studies in animals and studies performed in vitro. CLA appears to produce loss of fat mass and increase of lean tissue mass in rodents, but the results from 13 randomized, controlled, short-term (<6 months) trials in humans find little evidence to support that CLA reduces body weight or promotes repartitioning of body fat and fat-free mass in man. However, there is increasing evidence from mice and human studies that the CLA isomer trans-10, cis-12 may produce liver hypertrophy and insulin resistance via a redistribution of fat deposition that resembles lipodystrophy. CLA also decreases the fat content of both human and bovine milk. In conclusion, although CLA appears to attenuate increases in body weight and body fat in several animal models, CLA isomers sold as dietary supplements are not effective as weight loss agents in humans and may actually have adverse effects on human health.

PMID: 12923219 [PubMed - in process]---



ANOTHER:

--Proc Nutr Soc. 2005 May;64(2):171-82.

The effects of conjugated linoleic acid on human health-related outcomes.

Tricon S, Burdge GC, Williams CM, Calder PC, Yaqoob P.

Hugh Sinclair Unit of Human Nutrition, School of Food Bioscienes, University of Reading, Whiteknights, UK. S.Tricon@reading.ac.uk

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a collective term for a mixture of positional and geometric isomers of conjugated dienoic derivatives of linoleic acid. CLA has received considerable attention as a result of animal experiments that report anti-carcinogenic, anti-atherogenic and anti-diabetic properties, and modulation of body composition and immune function. Several studies of CLA supplementation in human subjects have now been published, but in contrast to animal studies there has been marked variation between reports on the health-related outcomes. The consensus from seventeen published studies in human subjects is that CLA does not affect body weight or body composition. Some detrimental effects of the trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomer have also been reported in terms of altered blood lipid composition and impaired insulin sensitivity. Finally, CLA has only limited effects on immune functions in man. However, there have been reports of some interesting isomer-specific effects of CLA on the blood lipid profile, but not on immune function. These isomer-specific effects need further investigation. Until more is known, CLA supplementation in man should be considered with caution.

PMID: 15960862 [PubMed - in process]



ANOTHER:

--Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Aug;82(2):309-19. Related Articles, Links

Lack of effect of dietary conjugated linoleic acids naturally incorporated into butter on the lipid profile and body composition of overweight and obese men.

Desroches S, Chouinard PY, Galibois I, Corneau L, Delisle J, Lamarche B, Couture P, Bergeron N.

Institute on Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods and Animal Sciences, Laval University, Quebec, Canada.

BACKGROUND: Dietary conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is known to reduce atherosclerosis, plasma total and LDL-cholesterol concentrations, and body fat accumulation in several animal species. Of the few studies that investigated the effects of CLA supplementation in humans, all used commercially formulated oral supplements made from a mixture of CLA isomers. OBJECTIVE: We compared the effects on plasma lipoproteins and body composition of the consumption of a modified butter naturally enriched with CLA (CLA-B: 4.22 g CLA/100 g butter fat) by the addition of sunflower oil to the diet of dairy cows with the consumption of a control butter (CON-B) that was low in CLA (0.38 g CLA/100 g butter fat). DESIGN: In a crossover design study including an 8-wk washout period, 16 men [x +/- SD age: 36.6 +/- 12.4 y; body mass index (in kg/m(2)): 31.2 +/- 4.4] were fed each of the 2 experimental isoenergetic diets, providing 15% of energy as protein, 45% as carbohydrates, and 40% as lipids, of which >60% was derived from experimental fats, for 4 wk. RESULTS: Consumption of the CLA-B diet induced a significantly (P < 0.05) smaller reduction in plasma total cholesterol and in the ratio of total to HDL cholesterol (-0.02 mmol/L and -0.00, respectively) than did consumption of the CON-B diet (-0.26 mmol/L and-0.34, respectively). Abdominal adipose tissue area measured by computed tomography showed no difference in accumulation of either visceral or subcutaneous adipose tissue after the 2 experimental diets. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that a 10-fold CLA enrichment of butter fat does not induce beneficial metabolic effects in overweight or obese men.


Also, these were quotes by Lyle McDonald I used in another post about CLA:

"Time to come to terms with it, if you haven't already: add CLA to the list of stuff that works great on rats/mice and does jack crap for humans".

Also from Lyle--- "If CLA does anything in humans it will likely have to be mega-dosed to achieve anything even approximating what occurs in mice/rats (who respond between 3-7 times better than humans because of a difference in metabolic rate). So you either have to take 3-7 times as much (at a monstrous cost) or wait 3-7 times as long for the effects to become noticeable."


Personally, I've taken CLA at up to 10 grams a day (very expensive), and noticed no better body composition changes than when I wasn't taking it.  FWIW, anyways.....
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2005, 02:31:16 AM »




What about a good clean diet, I would try that first.

exactly!

-try a simple 40/40/20 diet, but try and keep the 20 healthier fats. or whatever works for you, but this is the #1 solution to your problem. also try to stick to a schedule of about 6 meals a day and try and keep evenly separate. be realistic don't try and kill yourself to get your meals in. a little early a little late not that bad but in general try and keep your body on a schedule, i.e. same training time and meal times

-find a fat burner that works for you. i would go with either redline, amp or just your basic ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin (i don't use the aspirin generally but people swear by it)

-add cardio post workout and a separate cardio session. adjust duration according to your results. i wouldn't go too long after working out, 10-20min usually works for me but everyone is different
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2005, 04:06:14 AM »

I suppose if you feel it's working for you, then more power to ya'.  But I've read too much that goes the other way.  Here's a few things:


--Efficacy and safety of dietary supplements containing CLA for the treatment of obesity: evidence from animal and human studies.

Larsen TM, Toubro S, Astrup A.

Department of Human Nutrition, Center for Advanced Food Studies, The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University, DK-1958 Frederiksberg C, Denmark.

Dietary supplements containing conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) are widely promoted as weight loss agents available over the counter and via the Internet. In this review, we evaluate the efficacy and safety of CLA supplementation based on peer-reviewed published results from randomized, placebo-controlled, human intervention trials lasting more than 4 weeks. We also review findings from experimental studies in animals and studies performed in vitro. CLA appears to produce loss of fat mass and increase of lean tissue mass in rodents, but the results from 13 randomized, controlled, short-term (<6 months) trials in humans find little evidence to support that CLA reduces body weight or promotes repartitioning of body fat and fat-free mass in man. However, there is increasing evidence from mice and human studies that the CLA isomer trans-10, cis-12 may produce liver hypertrophy and insulin resistance via a redistribution of fat deposition that resembles lipodystrophy. CLA also decreases the fat content of both human and bovine milk. In conclusion, although CLA appears to attenuate increases in body weight and body fat in several animal models, CLA isomers sold as dietary supplements are not effective as weight loss agents in humans and may actually have adverse effects on human health.

PMID: 12923219 [PubMed - in process]---



ANOTHER:

--Proc Nutr Soc. 2005 May;64(2):171-82.

The effects of conjugated linoleic acid on human health-related outcomes.

Tricon S, Burdge GC, Williams CM, Calder PC, Yaqoob P.

Hugh Sinclair Unit of Human Nutrition, School of Food Bioscienes, University of Reading, Whiteknights, UK. S.Tricon@reading.ac.uk

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a collective term for a mixture of positional and geometric isomers of conjugated dienoic derivatives of linoleic acid. CLA has received considerable attention as a result of animal experiments that report anti-carcinogenic, anti-atherogenic and anti-diabetic properties, and modulation of body composition and immune function. Several studies of CLA supplementation in human subjects have now been published, but in contrast to animal studies there has been marked variation between reports on the health-related outcomes. The consensus from seventeen published studies in human subjects is that CLA does not affect body weight or body composition. Some detrimental effects of the trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomer have also been reported in terms of altered blood lipid composition and impaired insulin sensitivity. Finally, CLA has only limited effects on immune functions in man. However, there have been reports of some interesting isomer-specific effects of CLA on the blood lipid profile, but not on immune function. These isomer-specific effects need further investigation. Until more is known, CLA supplementation in man should be considered with caution.

PMID: 15960862 [PubMed - in process]



ANOTHER:

--Am J Clin Nutr. 2005 Aug;82(2):309-19. Related Articles, Links

Lack of effect of dietary conjugated linoleic acids naturally incorporated into butter on the lipid profile and body composition of overweight and obese men.

Desroches S, Chouinard PY, Galibois I, Corneau L, Delisle J, Lamarche B, Couture P, Bergeron N.

Institute on Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods and Animal Sciences, Laval University, Quebec, Canada.

BACKGROUND: Dietary conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is known to reduce atherosclerosis, plasma total and LDL-cholesterol concentrations, and body fat accumulation in several animal species. Of the few studies that investigated the effects of CLA supplementation in humans, all used commercially formulated oral supplements made from a mixture of CLA isomers. OBJECTIVE: We compared the effects on plasma lipoproteins and body composition of the consumption of a modified butter naturally enriched with CLA (CLA-B: 4.22 g CLA/100 g butter fat) by the addition of sunflower oil to the diet of dairy cows with the consumption of a control butter (CON-B) that was low in CLA (0.38 g CLA/100 g butter fat). DESIGN: In a crossover design study including an 8-wk washout period, 16 men [x +/- SD age: 36.6 +/- 12.4 y; body mass index (in kg/m(2)): 31.2 +/- 4.4] were fed each of the 2 experimental isoenergetic diets, providing 15% of energy as protein, 45% as carbohydrates, and 40% as lipids, of which >60% was derived from experimental fats, for 4 wk. RESULTS: Consumption of the CLA-B diet induced a significantly (P < 0.05) smaller reduction in plasma total cholesterol and in the ratio of total to HDL cholesterol (-0.02 mmol/L and -0.00, respectively) than did consumption of the CON-B diet (-0.26 mmol/L and-0.34, respectively). Abdominal adipose tissue area measured by computed tomography showed no difference in accumulation of either visceral or subcutaneous adipose tissue after the 2 experimental diets. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that a 10-fold CLA enrichment of butter fat does not induce beneficial metabolic effects in overweight or obese men.


Also, these were quotes by Lyle McDonald I used in another post about CLA:

"Time to come to terms with it, if you haven't already: add CLA to the list of stuff that works great on rats/mice and does jack crap for humans".

Also from Lyle--- "If CLA does anything in humans it will likely have to be mega-dosed to achieve anything even approximating what occurs in mice/rats (who respond between 3-7 times better than humans because of a difference in metabolic rate). So you either have to take 3-7 times as much (at a monstrous cost) or wait 3-7 times as long for the effects to become noticeable."


Personally, I've taken CLA at up to 10 grams a day (very expensive), and noticed no better body composition changes than when I wasn't taking it.  FWIW, anyways.....


SO does this mean it's my turn to post studies which say the exact opposite? 

And I'm not sure I would believe a guy that would take "10 grams" of CLA anyways, why did you quit...you didn't get ripped quick enough??  Roll Eyes  If you thought the purpose of CLA was to get you extreme vascularity, paper thin skin, and "Munzer like" condition then I think you need to go back and read some MORE studies on CLA.


But, then again, I could still post study after study showing (within 2 standard deviations) many human benefits!  Your call big shot...


BY the way, read my original post again.  I never said anything about "feeling" anything.  Can you "feel" atherosclerosis clearing up?  Or can you "feel" adipocytes increasing in insulin resistivity?? Roll Eyes  If you can, then you can probably also hear your hair grow  Roll Eyes

I'm sorry bro, but it's people like you that make selling snake oils so easy  Roll Eyes  Is that how you rate all your supplements, by "feel?"   And lets not forget that you were the one that took 10g of CLA expecting to "Feel" something...my goodness, please stop while you're ahead  Wink
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2005, 09:00:33 AM »


SO does this mean it's my turn to post studies which say the exact opposite? 

But, then again, I could still post study after study showing (within 2 standard deviations) many human benefits!  Your call big shot...


Just so you know, by posting studies that suggest CLA works, you prove his point.  That is to say, the fact that there are many conflicting scientific suggests the possibility that supplements, but not the probablity or surety.  Ultimately, it's going to boil down to if our guy here wants to try something that he understands may or may not work. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2005, 11:00:54 AM »


SO does this mean it's my turn to post studies which say the exact opposite? 

And I'm not sure I would believe a guy that would take "10 grams" of CLA anyways, why did you quit...you didn't get ripped quick enough??  Roll Eyes  If you thought the purpose of CLA was to get you extreme vascularity, paper thin skin, and "Munzer like" condition then I think you need to go back and read some MORE studies on CLA.


But, then again, I could still post study after study showing (within 2 standard deviations) many human benefits!  Your call big shot...


BY the way, read my original post again.  I never said anything about "feeling" anything.  Can you "feel" atherosclerosis clearing up?  Or can you "feel" adipocytes increasing in insulin resistivity?? Roll Eyes  If you can, then you can probably also hear your hair grow  Roll Eyes

I'm sorry bro, but it's people like you that make selling snake oils so easy  Roll Eyes  Is that how you rate all your supplements, by "feel?"   And lets not forget that you were the one that took 10g of CLA expecting to "Feel" something...my goodness, please stop while you're ahead  Wink


LMAO!!!   It's absolutely hilarious you took the work "feel" and used it in such a literal sense.  Maybe I should have said "If you THINK/NOTICE it's working for you..."  when addressing you at the beginning of my post.  I know that you didn't say anything about "feeling" it.  I didn't say otherwise.  You took it way too literally my man!

I make selling snake oil easy?  Huh?  By posting studies going against the "supposed" benefits of supplements such as CLA?  Again, you took the word "feel" and ran with it.  What's even funnier, is that at NO point did I personally say anything about "feeling" CLA working.  Did I??  You really twisted the last sentence of my post.  Re-read it. 

I took 10 grams of CLA a day at the recommendation of Chris Janusz.  Maybe you've heard of him?  He's a very well known diet/nutrition consultant in the bodybuilding world that I worked with last year.   I ran the diet he had designed for me for nine months.  It was a very strict diet, meaning six days a week I was eating the exact same foods in the exact same amounts, and had one day for refeed meals.  The diet was designed primarily for fat loss, with the potential for muscle gain.  Anyhow, after three months I added the CLA at the recommended amount and ran that for the remaining six months.

I guess what it boils down to is that for what I was spending on the CLA alone, it wasn't worth it.  My body composition changes were no better (ie faster or greater fat loss) than when I wasn't taking it. 

How about this Brutal_1.  I invite you to gather whatever studies you've got on CLA and to post them on Lyle McDonald's forum @ bodyrecomposition.com.  You can point out to Lyle all the "benefits" of CLA, etc. and have him respond to you, which he will.  I never claimed to be an expert on CLA or human nutrition.  But I do highly respect the opinions of Lyle who is known as an expert when it comes to nutrition/dieting, and is very good at reviewing research.  If you can convince him that CLA is beneficial and worth taking based on your posted research, then I'll retract what I've said.  I'd be very interested in seeing a conversation on the subject between you and him. 

Is it 'possible' for CLA to be useful for humans?  Yes.  But unless you've got assloads of money to spend on it, it still isn't worth it, IMO. The current cost/benefit ratio for CLA is very poor.  Plus you can't ignore the potential negative effects like insulin resistance and lipid profile.

Bottom line, I've got no hard feelings toward ya'.  I wanted to post my opinion on CLA based on my experience with the product and everything that I've read since that time concerning it.  Peace....
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2005, 11:19:22 AM »

Just so you know, by posting studies that suggest CLA works, you prove his point.  That is to say, the fact that there are many conflicting scientific suggests the possibility that supplements, but not the probablity or surety.  Ultimately, it's going to boil down to if our guy here wants to try something that he understands may or may not work. 


Great post, Bear.  The fact that there are so many conflicting studies is reason for caution, IMO.

Again, many of the studies showing the great benefits of CLA were done on rat models.  In turn, when those results were normalized for human trials, humans responded far, far less than the animals.  It's really just something that should be considered before spending lots of money on a product that, as Bear said, may or may not produce any results.

Personally, I don't have a ton of money to spend on supplements that "might" do something.  I'd rather stick to the very few things that do work and leave the other stuff to the gullible consumers who fall victim to clever marketing tactics.  But hey, that's just me....    Smiley

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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2005, 12:41:31 PM »

Just so you know, by posting studies that suggest CLA works, you prove his point.  That is to say, the fact that there are many conflicting scientific suggests the possibility that supplements, but not the probablity or surety.  Ultimately, it's going to boil down to if our guy here wants to try something that he understands may or may not work. 

Yeah, I completely agree with your post.  The only problem is that you can find studies proving anything.  Fact is, there are CONFLICTING studies for almost everything out there including CREATINE, GLUTAMINE, EPHEDRA etc.  Has anyone ever heard of any of these?  Or had results from any of these?  I have  Grin

But when it comes to CLA, i actually did take the time to look up the 12 most recent studies, peer-reviewed and published in reputable journals...and I DID NOT find any conflicting data.  Granted they weren't concerning CLA and fat loss, but rather protective effects and increased efficiency in lipolysis and glutathione activity.  I was just saying that, of all the pencil-necks that publish these studies, CLA is one of the few that endures the studies and is still recommended.  My only problem with Blake's original post was that he said there was "No proven human benefit." And well, that's just wrong.   Grin

my 2 pesos  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2005, 12:50:20 PM »



Is it 'possible' for CLA to be useful for humans?  Yes. 
 

That's cool Blake, I appreciate your search for knowledge on supplements, which is more than I can say for a majority of lifters.  I guess continuing upon this cyber-debate is pointless, especially since we seem to be veering from our original topic.  My only reason for my original refute to your post was that you said CLA was "Overpriced w/ no proven benefit."  Right? That's all, I never claimed to argue that CLA is a fat burner or is one of the best supps out there, period.  I just wanted to point out that there are MANY respected studies which show MANY human benefits (aside from just fat loss) from CLA. 

Concerning studies on human subjects, the next time you do a research study search, you can usually narrow the fields to ONLY human studies...which is what I looked up.  You'll see what I mean.  IF you're still having problems I don't mind emailing you the studies, just let me know.

BTW, you don't by any chance post on studentdoctor.net do you?? Huh

I'm done.... Cool
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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2005, 03:29:22 PM »

That's cool Blake, I appreciate your search for knowledge on supplements, which is more than I can say for a majority of lifters.  I guess continuing upon this cyber-debate is pointless, especially since we seem to be veering from our original topic.  My only reason for my original refute to your post was that you said CLA was "Overpriced w/ no proven benefit."  Right? That's all, I never claimed to argue that CLA is a fat burner or is one of the best supps out there, period.  I just wanted to point out that there are MANY respected studies which show MANY human benefits (aside from just fat loss) from CLA. 

Concerning studies on human subjects, the next time you do a research study search, you can usually narrow the fields to ONLY human studies...which is what I looked up.  You'll see what I mean.  IF you're still having problems I don't mind emailing you the studies, just let me know.

BTW, you don't by any chance post on studentdoctor.net do you?? Huh

I'm done.... Cool


Brutal_1,

You're totally right about what I said in my first post about their being "no proven benefit".  As we've all seen, there are conflicting studies regarding the benefits of CLA, both in human and animal models.

If I had to narrow it down, I think my main issue w/ CLA is the current cost/benefit ratio.  In the meantime I'll stick with my dirt cheap fish oil caps.   Smiley

Is there any chance you could PM me the links to the studies you have?  I'd just be curious to see the ones you've reviewed.  Thanks in advance man.

Oh, and no, I don't post on studentdoctor.net, though I'm pretty familiar with that site.

Take it easy...
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2005, 11:22:59 AM »

45 MIN OF CARDIO 4-5 TIMES A WEEK

HEALTHY DIET

ECA STACKS 2-3 TIMES A DAY Grin
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2005, 03:29:03 PM »

45 MIN OF CARDIO 4-5 TIMES A WEEK

HEALTHY DIET

ECA STACKS 2-3 TIMES A DAY Grin

yup.  Although i'd say 2, and you don't need the aspirin, take some green tea instead, mostly cause it's good for ya.  You can make an "ECGT" stack for about $25/mo.  You really shouldn't add the fat burner until you plateau with your weight loss, though.
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