Author Topic: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan  (Read 1947 times)

howardroark

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Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« on: August 04, 2012, 10:04:08 AM »
Can anyone please show me where in this plan there is a hidden middle-income tax hike? Because I just can't find it.

  • Cut tax rates by 20%
  • Eliminate taxes on interest, dividends, and capital gains for individuals earning less than $200,000
  • Eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax
  • Eliminate the Death Tax

Shockwave

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 04:48:52 PM »
Crickets.
Honestly this is the 1st time I've ever seen his actual tax plan. Surprised he hasn't tried to spread it everywhere.

tu_holmes

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 05:12:08 PM »
I don't know exactly, but here's how it's being deciphered.

Mitt Romney's tax plan could force 95 percent of the country to pay more, while cutting taxes for the "1%" by tens of thousands of dollars, according to a new analysis from the Tax Policy Center and the Brookings Institution.

The Romney plan begins by cutting marginal rates by 20 percent and eliminating the estate tax and Alternative Minimum Tax, which would decrease federal tax revenue by $360 billion by 2015. This report considered what would happen if Romney eliminated tax expenditures to make his plan revenue-neutral, so that it wouldn't blow an enormous hole in our budget. Here's what they found: The revenue-neutral Romney plan would raise taxes on a typical family by more than $600. A household making between half-a-million and $1 million would get a tax cut equal to almost twice the disposable income of the poorest 20 percent.

Thumbnail image for romneytax3.png

Think about this plan as two steps. Step one, Romney's intended tax cuts, digs a hole. Step two is filling that hole by cutting tax spending, like the mortgage interest deduction and child tax credit. Even with a careful pruning of tax spending, the inevitable result is to massively swing the burden of taxes toward the "bottom 95%" because the top benefits so much from Romney's step one.

There are two reasons why this analysis might understate exactly how regressive the Romney plan is. First, the researchers started by eliminating tax expenditures for the highest-income groups and worked their way down. But it's impossible to expect Congress would completely eliminate all tax expenditures above a certain level. Second, the analysis doesn't include possible cuts to government spending, which tends to benefit low- and middle-income households more than tax expenditures. If Romney leaves military spending levels near their current share of GDP, the cuts would focus even more on programs that provide services or cash to the poor, sick, and elderly. That's not me being hyperbolic: Poor, sick, and old is simply where the vast majority of non-combat government spending goes.

We can argue over methodology and details, but there are a few things that can't be debated away. First, the Romney plan and the Obama plan both use the Bush tax cuts as a canvas, but from there, they paint very different pictures. Obama begins by raising taxes at the top, and Romney begins by cutting tax rates that benefit the top. Second, there's no getting around the fact that Romney's plan would make the tax code less progressive. "It is not mathematically possible to design a revenue-neutral plan that preserves current incentives for savings and investment and that does not result in a net tax cut for high-income taxpayers and a net tax increase for lower- and/or middle-income taxpayers," the study concludes.

Shockwave

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 05:14:36 PM »
I don't know exactly, but here's how it's being deciphered.

Mitt Romney's tax plan could force 95 percent of the country to pay more, while cutting taxes for the "1%" by tens of thousands of dollars, according to a new analysis from the Tax Policy Center and the Brookings Institution.

The Romney plan begins by cutting marginal rates by 20 percent and eliminating the estate tax and Alternative Minimum Tax, which would decrease federal tax revenue by $360 billion by 2015. This report considered what would happen if Romney eliminated tax expenditures to make his plan revenue-neutral, so that it wouldn't blow an enormous hole in our budget. Here's what they found: The revenue-neutral Romney plan would raise taxes on a typical family by more than $600. A household making between half-a-million and $1 million would get a tax cut equal to almost twice the disposable income of the poorest 20 percent.

Thumbnail image for romneytax3.png

Think about this plan as two steps. Step one, Romney's intended tax cuts, digs a hole. Step two is filling that hole by cutting tax spending, like the mortgage interest deduction and child tax credit. Even with a careful pruning of tax spending, the inevitable result is to massively swing the burden of taxes toward the "bottom 95%" because the top benefits so much from Romney's step one.

There are two reasons why this analysis might understate exactly how regressive the Romney plan is. First, the researchers started by eliminating tax expenditures for the highest-income groups and worked their way down. But it's impossible to expect Congress would completely eliminate all tax expenditures above a certain level. Second, the analysis doesn't include possible cuts to government spending, which tends to benefit low- and middle-income households more than tax expenditures. If Romney leaves military spending levels near their current share of GDP, the cuts would focus even more on programs that provide services or cash to the poor, sick, and elderly. That's not me being hyperbolic: Poor, sick, and old is simply where the vast majority of non-combat government spending goes.

We can argue over methodology and details, but there are a few things that can't be debated away. First, the Romney plan and the Obama plan both use the Bush tax cuts as a canvas, but from there, they paint very different pictures. Obama begins by raising taxes at the top, and Romney begins by cutting tax rates that benefit the top. Second, there's no getting around the fact that Romney's plan would make the tax code less progressive. "It is not mathematically possible to design a revenue-neutral plan that preserves current incentives for savings and investment and that does not result in a net tax cut for high-income taxpayers and a net tax increase for lower- and/or middle-income taxpayers," the study concludes.
Im more confused than ever.

tu_holmes

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 05:33:50 PM »
Im more confused than ever.

You and me both... It's absolutely mind-numbing how anyone understand the US tax laws.


tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 06:19:19 PM »
basically the study makes the assumption that Romney will balance his tax plan of cuts by eliminating credits.

where or why they got the idea to make such an broad and reaching assumption I have no fucking clue but that wont stop anybody from running with this.

240 is Back

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 07:52:02 PM »
  • Cut tax rates by 20%

For all people? 

howardroark

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 10:16:49 PM »
For all people? 

Yup, cut marginal tax rates by 20% across the board.

tu_holmes

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 10:38:34 PM »
Yup, cut marginal tax rates by 20% across the board.

But they wont' cut spending... so it puts us in a bigger hole.


tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 10:42:56 PM »
But they wont' cut spending... so it puts us in a bigger hole.
so we need to raise taxes so that the govt can dig us into the hole a fraction slower?

reducing taxes especially in this economy would put more money in the pockets of consumers. That would allow them businesses to pick up projects, consumers to spend more and hopefully pull us out of the shit hole we are in.

The problem is precisely that the govt wont stop spending, so how is raising taxes addressing the problem?

tu_holmes

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 10:44:02 PM »
so we need to raise taxes so that the govt can dig us into the hole a fraction slower?

reducing taxes especially in this economy would put more money in the pockets of consumers. That would allow them businesses to pick up projects, consumers to spend more and hopefully pull us out of the shit hole we are in.

The problem is precisely that the govt wont stop spending, so how is raising taxes addressing the problem?

No... That's not what I'm saying at all.

Don't put words in my mouth... In my world, they would cut spending and increase revenue just to what it would take to have our deficit paid down by 2050.

Whatever it took to make that happen, that's what I would do.

tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 10:47:00 PM »
No... That's not what I'm saying at all.

Don't put words in my mouth... In my world, they would cut spending and increase revenue just to what it would take to have our deficit paid down by 2050.

Whatever it took to make that happen, that's what I would do.
right now increasing revenue by raising taxes isnt a responsible option.

you can increase revenue by providing incentives for businesses to hire again. Make their operation expenses cheaper so that way projects are more appealing.

Raising taxes isnt going to do that...

tu_holmes

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 10:48:48 PM »
right now increasing revenue by raising taxes isnt a responsible option.

you can increase revenue by providing incentives for businesses to hire again. Make their operation expenses cheaper so that way projects are more appealing.

Raising taxes isnt going to do that...

Let me ask you this question then... before Obama took office... With the taxes at their lowest, were businesses hiring or were they firing?

Throughout the late 90s and early 2000s when we were deregulating damn near everything and letting companies have low taxes, where were the jobs going?

While your idea sounds, well.... sound. History has show us that companies do not do that... They look at whatever is cheapest and that's what they do.


tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 11:03:40 PM »
Let me ask you this question then... before Obama took office... With the taxes at their lowest, were businesses hiring or were they firing?

Throughout the late 90s and early 2000s when we were deregulating damn near everything and letting companies have low taxes, where were the jobs going?

While your idea sounds, well.... sound. History has show us that companies do not do that... They look at whatever is cheapest and that's what they do.
First off, it doesnt matter if our tax rate is zero if other countries are giving companies money to operate there. Its not simply about our tax rate is also about our tax rate in comparison to other countries and we are currently one of the highest in the WORLD.

Thats the entire point im trying to make tu, MAKE IT CHEAPER FOR BUSINESSES TO OPERATE.

you also have to make so they are able to predict their costs and revenue. Meaning you cant pass idiotic legislation that strings out uncertainty for major costs to businesses for nearly a decade.

blacken700

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 06:01:00 AM »
Mitt Romney would cut millionaires’ taxes, Barack Obama says
 
Share this story:
 This Obama campaign ad aired in August 2012.
You comparison shop for cans of tuna. Mitt Romney rides on Donald Trump’s jet.

A new Obama campaign ad shows those scenes to hammer at the lifestyle differences between struggling middle-class Americans and the Republican presidential candidate. Then it takes aim at Romney’s economic proposals.

"Now he has a plan," the ad says, "that would give millionaires another tax break and raises taxes on middle-class families by up to $2,000 a year."

We know from our previous reporting on Romney’s tax plan that it offers across-the-board cuts, including for the very wealthy. But a new independent study offers broader perspective on how taxpayers at all income levels would be affected by Romney’s plan.

So we decided to take a look.

Romney’s tax "plan"

We need to be clear from the start that the problem independent analysts, journalists and fact-checkers have with digging into Romney's tax plan is that much of the "plan" isn't yet known.

Romney has suggested general parameters:

• The rate cuts would be paid for without adding to the deficit.
• People at the high end "will still pay the same share of the tax burden they’re paying now."
• Everyone would see tax rate reductions.

He has outlined specific tax cuts on his campaign website. They include: cutting marginal rates by 20 percent on a permanent, across-the-board basis; eliminating interest, dividend and capital gains taxes for taxpayers earning less than $200,000; eliminating the estate tax; and repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax.
   
Romney would also cut the corporate rate to 25 percent.

To offset those cuts, Romney has hinted that he would eliminate some common tax write-offs and deductions for people with high incomes.

The effect of Romney's plan

Knowing all that, the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution that evaluates tax proposals submitted by presidential candidates, examined the effect of Romney’s tax rate cuts combined with the elimination of several common tax deductions. Those include the mortgage interest deduction, charitable giving deduction and the exclusion for health insurance. The center published its findings on Aug. 1, 2012.

To try and keep with Romney's guiding principles, the authors eliminated deductions and write-offs -- starting with the deductions for top earners first -- until they came up with enough revenue to offset the $360 billion in tax cuts that are part of Romney's plan.

They determined that people who earn $1 million or more in taxable income would see an average net tax decrease of $87,117. They’d save $175,961 from Romney's tax cut, but lose $88,444 in deductions.

"They would still get a tax cut," said Adam Looney, one of the authors. "The dollar value of the tax cuts is just way bigger than the mortgage interest and other deductions. There’s no way to implement this plan in a way that doesn’t result in a pretty big tax cut for that group (those making more than $1 million)."

People who earn between $500,000 and $1 million would see a cut of about $17,000, and taxes for people with incomes between $200,000 and $500,000 would decrease by about $1,800, the study found.

But to make Romney's plan revenue neutral, deductions would also have to be removed for people with incomes below $200,000, and the effects of that would be significant, the study found. In fact, the elimination of the deductions would mean outright tax increases for everyone with incomes below $200,000. People with taxable income between $50,000 and $75,000, for example, would see an average net tax increase of $641. They’d save $984 from Romney's rate cut, but lose $2,672 in write-offs.

The authors specifically noted that taxpayers with children whose income is below $200,000 would see their taxes go up by an average of $2,041 -- the figure highlighted in Obama’s ad.

The reason for the increase is that the most popular tax breaks heavily benefit middle- and lower-income families, the 95 percent of the population earning less than $200,000 who carry mortgage debt and use employer-provided health insurance.

And though Romney has suggested he would focus on taking the deductions away from the wealthy, the study concluded that alone would not make up the difference of the revenue sacrificed when rates are slashed.

"Somebody has to foot the bill for those tax cuts," Looney said. "You have to tap into middle- and lower-income households."

Bottom line: the study found that Romney couldn't keep all his goals based on what we know about his plan.

Romney campaign’s response

When the study appeared online, the Romney campaign posted a response on its website that did not specifically address the discrepancy.

"President Obama continues to tout liberal studies calling for more tax hikes and more government spending. We've been down that road before – and it's led us to 41 straight months of unemployment above 8 percent," said Romney spokesman Ryan Williams.

Looney is a senior fellow in economic studies at Brookings who has a Ph.D. from Harvard University. He served on Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers in 2009 and 2010. William Gale, another of the authors, is vice president of Brookings and director of its economic studies program. He served on President George H.W. Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers.

Lanhee Chen, the Romney campaign’s policy director, later added in a press release that the study ignored the corporate tax rate cut Romney proposes and his deficit reduction plan.

"These glaring gaps invalidate the report’s conclusions," Chen said.

The Romney campaign said that the study ignored the assertion that lower tax rates will grow the economy -- which they say will translate into more tax revenues. That will help make the plan revenue neutral even with lower overall tax rates.

Spending cuts, likewise, could help balance the tax cuts without having to raise taxes on people making less than $200,000. The study, for the record, did consider that possibility but concluded it was impossible to evaluate the effect of spending cuts without knowing what would be cut.  They also noted that "government spending tends to benefit low- and middle-income households."

We find nothing in the study that distorts Romney’s proposals. It makes assumptions favorable to Romney, namely that his plan would lead to greater economic growth and raise revenues. The Tax Policy Center, whose director is another former adviser to Bush, is well-respected for its unbiased work, and even the Romney campaign praised it in November 2011 for offering "objective, third-party analysis."

Our ruling

Obama said Romney is proposing a tax plan "that would give millionaires another tax break and raises taxes on middle class families by up to $2,000 a year."

The claims are based on a study by the Tax Policy Center, which used what Romney has said about his tax plan and attempted to calculate outcomes for different groups of taxpayers.

The study prioritizes the idea that the plan would be revenue neutral. In that scenario, millionaires lose deductions, but the lower rates would still decrease their tax bill by an average of $87,000.

Middle-class taxpayers would see lower tax rates, too, but the loss of exemptions and deductions would hit them harder. People making $200,000 or less a year would see their taxes rise by an average of about $2,000.
The study is making the point that Romney’s plan is untenable: to cut rates that much without adding to the deficit, something has to give. It necessarily makes some assumptions, and therefore these conclusions are not definite as long as the details of the plan remain unknown. For that reason, people should be cautious in calling this Romney's plan.

We rate the claim Mostly True.

tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 06:21:50 AM »
Hey blacken where in Romneys plan does it say that he will cut exemptions and deductions for middle class families?

it doesnt that is an assumption from the tax center...


blacken700

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 06:39:04 AM »
how is he going to offset the tax cuts

tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 07:01:42 AM »
how is he going to offset the tax cuts
The increased revenue gained by cutting taxes and getting the economy going again

blacken700

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 07:12:00 AM »
Looney said the Tax Policy Center ran its study again using the economic-growth scenario laid out by Romney's economic advisers that estimates his plan would add 12 million jobs and increase GDP growth by 1 percent, which Looney said was "an implausibly large estimate."

Romney's proposed economic growth would offset 15 percent of the tax cuts, but would still leave the GOP candidate with $307 billion less in revenues.

"Even in that case, there's still a shift in the tax burden from high-income taxpayers to low -and or middle-income taxpayers," Looney said. "It's smaller, but it would require a net tax increase on the middle class."

tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 07:19:56 AM »
Looney said the Tax Policy Center ran its study again using the economic-growth scenario laid out by Romney's economic advisers that estimates his plan would add 12 million jobs and increase GDP growth by 1 percent, which Looney said was "an implausibly large estimate."

Romney's proposed economic growth would offset 15 percent of the tax cuts, but would still leave the GOP candidate with $307 billion less in revenues.

"Even in that case, there's still a shift in the tax burden from high-income taxpayers to low -and or middle-income taxpayers," Looney said. "It's smaller, but it would require a net tax increase on the middle class."
and why would it require a net tax increase on the middle class blacken?

b/c the govt wont stop spending...

so youre saying your in favor of the govt increasing their spending over giving tax breaks to everyone?

blacken700

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 07:25:15 AM »
everyone wants to cut spending but when it comes time to doing it nobody wants it to be from their pet projects or defence so it never happens

tonymctones

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2012, 01:19:54 PM »
everyone wants to cut spending but when it comes time to doing it nobody wants it to be from their pet projects or defence so it never happens
agreed, so youre answer is to support a guy who will raise taxes costing us 700K jobs in the process and has outspent every other president in history?

brilliant "if you cant beat, join them" logic there blacken

rachaelsnav

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2012, 02:02:41 PM »
The things that are missing from this argument are:

1. Tax revenue goes up when taxes go down which will make up much of this gap.
2. What exemptions will be cut?
3. 50% of the population pays zero taxes now that is unsustainable (and stupid) so of course taxes on lower incomes need to rise when you arent paying anything any increase is an infinite rise.
4. Are there any spending cuts that will come with this plan.

howardroark

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 03:28:20 PM »
But they wont' cut spending... so it puts us in a bigger hole.



That's an argument for cutting spending, not against cutting taxes.


howardroark

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Re: Mitt Romney's ACTUAL Tax Plan
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2012, 03:30:03 PM »
Looney said the Tax Policy Center ran its study again using the economic-growth scenario laid out by Romney's economic advisers that estimates his plan would add 12 million jobs and increase GDP growth by 1 percent, which Looney said was "an implausibly large estimate."

Romney's proposed economic growth would offset 15 percent of the tax cuts, but would still leave the GOP candidate with $307 billion less in revenues.

"Even in that case, there's still a shift in the tax burden from high-income taxpayers to low -and or middle-income taxpayers," Looney said. "It's smaller, but it would require a net tax increase on the middle class."


Remember the part of the study which said that it didn't actually score Romney's plan?

That's what I call partisan bullshit.