Author Topic: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect  (Read 4073 times)

blacken700

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How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« on: August 07, 2012, 06:51:27 AM »
Michael Tomasky: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
by Michael Tomasky Aug 7, 2012 4:45 AM EDT

Why does it matter that Mitt won’t release his tax returns? Because it’s yet another sign that the man suffers from a pathological mixture of insecurity and entitlement.



What earthly power can make Mitt Romney release his tax returns? None whatsoever. Incredible as it may seem, it’s true: He can go all the way to November 6 without giving an inch, and there’s not one thing anyone can do about it. He pretty obviously thinks that the heat he’s taking for sitting on the returns is more bearable than the heat he’d have to endure by releasing them. And that calculation says something astonishing about the man, and ultimately, that is the issue here—this is far more about Romney’s character than it is about the money per se. And character is very quickly becoming the issue that the Obama camp hadn’t even planned on exploiting but now must, because Romney’s lack of it has become so obvious.

snip//

Think about it. Through a week of a Democratic convention, when his tax returns will be mentioned by speaker after speaker. Through the early fall campaigning. Through the debates, when he will again say that he feels he’s revealed all he needs to reveal. Through the campaign’s final, home-stretch weeks. If he hasn’t released more returns, then by mid-October, this will be one of three main things the average American knows about Mitt Romney: that he’s rich, that he’s running for president, and that he won’t release his tax returns.

That will have to be devastating. And it will be something he brought completely on himself, either by refusing to release the returns or by doing whatever it is he did in the first place that he’s now hiding. My Beast colleague Peter Beinart is correct to write that how much Romney paid in taxes doesn’t have anything to do with the larger debate we’re having in this election about “whether the federal government should try to significantly regulate capitalism.” But it has everything to do with Romney’s character—his sense of entitlement, the Master-of-the-Universe-y aura of impatient superiority that was undoubtedly a great virtue in the corporate world but is very much the opposite in the civic one, and the weird insecurity that lurks underneath that veneer of über-confidence. And those things are very germane to what sort of president he’d be.

Hiding his tax returns is bad enough. But also hidden are the names of his bundlers, certain Salt Lake Olympic records, and records from his tenure as governor. That’s roughly ... oh, his entire career. It’s bad enough that he thinks he can make it to the White House in this fashion. But it’s worse that he wants to. Someone running for the presidency should be happy to share that information, especially when it’s your own father who blazed this particular trail in the first place.

The Obama campaign doesn’t seem to have planned on making character an issue. The Bain attacks were about qualifications, not character. But in these past three or four weeks, Romney has demonstrated, with America watching, that this is the issue with him. He doesn’t play it straight on anything. Voters can smell it on him like bad cologne, and the longer he digs in his heels on taxes, the greater the stink will grow.

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 06:59:37 AM »
y

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 07:03:56 AM »
LOL!!!!!!

And obama not releasing his records saay what? 


Michael Tomnasky?  LMFAO! 

howardroark

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 12:49:52 PM »
If Mitt is hiding something, then what is Obama hiding by withholding records of Fast & Furious and his college transcripts?

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 12:51:58 PM »
when your defense of romney's actions is "well, the piece of shit kenyan we hate is doing the exact same thing"...

it's not much of a defense. 

howardroark

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 12:53:11 PM »
when your defense of romney's actions is "well, the piece of shit kenyan we hate is doing the exact same thing"...

it's not much of a defense. 

I rather bring both down to the same level and replace them with this guy:


He needs better advertising though.

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 12:57:34 PM »
when your defense of romney's actions is "well, the piece of shit kenyan we hate is doing the exact same thing"...

it's not much of a defense. 

 ::)  ::)  ::)

All Romney has to say to Obama is this -

"Tell you what Mr. Soetoro, I'll show up next week on meet the press w all my tax returns and you show up with all your SS registration, birth certificate, unsealed college , law school, adoption, passport, and other records.  Deal or not?" 

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 01:06:37 PM »
Four Pinocchios for Harry Reid’s claim about Mitt Romney’s taxes
Posted by Glenn Kessler at 06:02 AM ET, 08/07/2012
TheWashingtonPost   

“The word's out that he [Romney] hasn't paid any taxes for 10 years.”

— Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), on the floor of the U.S. Senate, Aug. 2, 2012

Reid has generated a lot of controversy with his claim that presumptive GOP nominee did not pay any taxes for 10 years. He originally told the Huffington Post that a person who had invested with Bain Capital had called his office and told him this. Then, he told reporters in Nevada that “I have had a number of people tell me that.”

Reid has refused to identify his source (or sources). Romney and his campaign aides have emphatically denied the charge but Reid has stood firm. “I don't think the burden should be on me,” he said. “The burden should be on him. He's the one I've alleged has not paid any taxes.”

This whole exchange poses a fact-checking conundrum. Generally, we maintain that the person or the campaign making the charge must back it up. Reid has refused to provide any evidence, except for the (unproven) fact that someone called him up and told him something that may be true — or simply a rumor.

But we can still examine how credible this rumor might be.


The Facts

 Romney has refused to release more than two years of tax returns, citing a precedent that is not very credible; he earned three Pinocchios for that claim. Most presidential candidates in recent years have released more than two years of returns, so Romney may be paying a political price for failing to release more.

But Romney’s 2010 return and his estimated 2011 return do show that he paid substantial taxes in those years. In 2010, he earned nearly $22 million, including $3 million in taxable interest, nearly $5 million in dividends and more than $12 million in capital gains. He reduced his taxes by giving $3 million in charitable contributions (much of it in appreciated stock, which shielded him from paying additional capital gains.)

In other words, this tax return shows a portfolio that is not structured to yield zero taxes. We spoke to a number of tax experts, all of whom said that, given Romney’s current portfolio, it was highly improbable for Romney to have had 10 years with tax-free returns — though there could have been one or two years with little or no taxes.

(We will lay aside the interesting question of Romney’s individual retirement account, valued at as much as $100 million, which may have benefited from Bain Capital’s practice of allowing employees to co-invest retirement funds in takeover deals.)

Charitable contributions, first of all, could only get Romney so far. Taxpayers cannot eliminate tax liability only through charitable contributions.

Still, Romney at one point could have invested all of his money in tax-exempt bonds, though that is not his investment strategy now. (IRS figures show that 61 percent of high-income returns with no tax liability stemmed from tax-exempt interest.)

Romney also could have timed the sale of stocks or made other investment decisions that would have yielded losses that offset capital gains. Len Burman, a professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University, said IRS data show that 5.7 percent of the high-income returns had as a primary reason losses from partnerships and closely-held business. “We know that Governor Romney had a partnership, and it had losses in 2010,” he said. “It’s possible that those partnership losses were large enough to offset taxable income from compensation, rents, interest, dividends, and royalties.”

Romney also could have invested in tax shelters. Edward Kleinbard, a law professor at the University of Southern California and former chief of staff at the Joint Committee on Taxation, noted that Romney chaired the audit committee of Marriott International when it engaged in a highly aggressive tax shelter that was successfully challenged by the Internal Revenue Service.

But none of this appears to add up to 10 years of tax returns with no taxes paid. “It is theoretically possible, but it seems quite improbable in practice given the portfolio in 2010,” Kleinbard said.  “It is improbable that a man of his wealth would have paid no taxes for 10 years.”

 Robert S. McIntyre, director of Citizens for Tax Justice, said that Romney “probably reported income every year” but that he might have paid as low as a 2 percent tax rate in one year. “That’s close enough to zero for me,” he said.

Still, Reid claims that Romney did not pay taxes for 10 years. Moreover, he claims to base this on information from a Bain investor, without explaining how someone not intimately familiar with Romney’s tax situation would know details of his taxes.

We asked a Reid spokesman for more backup information and for the name of a tax expert who could back up Reid’s claim but did not receive a response.

The Pinocchio Test

 We use a reasonable person standard here. Without seeing Romney’s taxes, we cannot definitively prove Reid  incorrect. But tax experts say his claim is highly improbable. Reid also has made no effort to explain why his unnamed source would be credible. So, in the absence of more information, it appears he has no basis to make his incendiary claim.

 Moreover, Reid holds a position of great authority in the U.S. Congress.  He should hold himself to a high standard of accuracy when making claims about political opponents.

 Four Pinocchios





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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 01:22:42 PM »
see, when you say "Obama does it too!"

Then it means it's not a big deal, or it is a big deal and they're both fcking shady.

Soul Crusher

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 01:25:39 PM »
see, when you say "Obama does it too!"

Then it means it's not a big deal, or it is a big deal and they're both fcking shady.

So?  Is Romney supposed to play lamb to be slaughtered while Obamarx gets away with anything he wants? 

Sorry - maybe you want to allow obama a free pass on his bullshit for whatever reason, but Romney should take the gloves off and just tell obama to show up at high noon with his records and romeny will with his. 


Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 02:44:44 PM »
Four Pinocchios for Harry Reid’s claim about Mitt Romney’s taxes
Posted by Glenn Kessler at 06:02 AM ET, 08/07/2012
TheWashingtonPost   

“The word's out that he [Romney] hasn't paid any taxes for 10 years.”

— Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), on the floor of the U.S. Senate, Aug. 2, 2012

Reid has generated a lot of controversy with his claim that presumptive GOP nominee did not pay any taxes for 10 years. He originally told the Huffington Post that a person who had invested with Bain Capital had called his office and told him this. Then, he told reporters in Nevada that “I have had a number of people tell me that.”

Reid has refused to identify his source (or sources). Romney and his campaign aides have emphatically denied the charge but Reid has stood firm. “I don't think the burden should be on me,” he said. “The burden should be on him. He's the one I've alleged has not paid any taxes.”

This whole exchange poses a fact-checking conundrum. Generally, we maintain that the person or the campaign making the charge must back it up. Reid has refused to provide any evidence, except for the (unproven) fact that someone called him up and told him something that may be true — or simply a rumor.

But we can still examine how credible this rumor might be.


The Facts

 Romney has refused to release more than two years of tax returns, citing a precedent that is not very credible; he earned three Pinocchios for that claim. Most presidential candidates in recent years have released more than two years of returns, so Romney may be paying a political price for failing to release more.

But Romney’s 2010 return and his estimated 2011 return do show that he paid substantial taxes in those years. In 2010, he earned nearly $22 million, including $3 million in taxable interest, nearly $5 million in dividends and more than $12 million in capital gains. He reduced his taxes by giving $3 million in charitable contributions (much of it in appreciated stock, which shielded him from paying additional capital gains.)

In other words, this tax return shows a portfolio that is not structured to yield zero taxes. We spoke to a number of tax experts, all of whom said that, given Romney’s current portfolio, it was highly improbable for Romney to have had 10 years with tax-free returns — though there could have been one or two years with little or no taxes.

(We will lay aside the interesting question of Romney’s individual retirement account, valued at as much as $100 million, which may have benefited from Bain Capital’s practice of allowing employees to co-invest retirement funds in takeover deals.)

Charitable contributions, first of all, could only get Romney so far. Taxpayers cannot eliminate tax liability only through charitable contributions.

Still, Romney at one point could have invested all of his money in tax-exempt bonds, though that is not his investment strategy now. (IRS figures show that 61 percent of high-income returns with no tax liability stemmed from tax-exempt interest.)

Romney also could have timed the sale of stocks or made other investment decisions that would have yielded losses that offset capital gains. Len Burman, a professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University, said IRS data show that 5.7 percent of the high-income returns had as a primary reason losses from partnerships and closely-held business. “We know that Governor Romney had a partnership, and it had losses in 2010,” he said. “It’s possible that those partnership losses were large enough to offset taxable income from compensation, rents, interest, dividends, and royalties.”

Romney also could have invested in tax shelters. Edward Kleinbard, a law professor at the University of Southern California and former chief of staff at the Joint Committee on Taxation, noted that Romney chaired the audit committee of Marriott International when it engaged in a highly aggressive tax shelter that was successfully challenged by the Internal Revenue Service.

But none of this appears to add up to 10 years of tax returns with no taxes paid. “It is theoretically possible, but it seems quite improbable in practice given the portfolio in 2010,” Kleinbard said.  “It is improbable that a man of his wealth would have paid no taxes for 10 years.”

 Robert S. McIntyre, director of Citizens for Tax Justice, said that Romney “probably reported income every year” but that he might have paid as low as a 2 percent tax rate in one year. “That’s close enough to zero for me,” he said.

Still, Reid claims that Romney did not pay taxes for 10 years. Moreover, he claims to base this on information from a Bain investor, without explaining how someone not intimately familiar with Romney’s tax situation would know details of his taxes.

We asked a Reid spokesman for more backup information and for the name of a tax expert who could back up Reid’s claim but did not receive a response.

The Pinocchio Test

 We use a reasonable person standard here. Without seeing Romney’s taxes, we cannot definitively prove Reid  incorrect. But tax experts say his claim is highly improbable. Reid also has made no effort to explain why his unnamed source would be credible. So, in the absence of more information, it appears he has no basis to make his incendiary claim.

 Moreover, Reid holds a position of great authority in the U.S. Congress.  He should hold himself to a high standard of accuracy when making claims about political opponents.

 Four Pinocchios





(About our rating scale)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/four-pinocchios-for-harry-reids-claim-about-mitt-romneys-taxes/2012/08/06/c31a1402-e007-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_blog.html


So zero actual proof that Reid is wrong

Romney can prove Reid's assertion is wrong any time he wants

What's he waiting for

He gave 23 years to McCain when he was "applying for the job" as VP so why can't he give the American people 5 or 10 years of returns when he is applying for the job of POTUS ?


Hugo Chavez

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 02:49:25 PM »
I rather bring both down to the same level and replace them with this guy:


He needs better advertising though.
Sounds good to me, why don't we push for this then?

Soul Crusher

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 02:50:00 PM »

So zero actual proof that Reid is wrong

Romney can prove Reid's assertion is wrong any time he wants

What's he waiting for

He gave 23 years to McCain when he was "applying for the job" as VP so why can't he give the American people 5 or 10 years of returns when he is applying for the job of POTUS ?



Straw - were you that guy arrested down my block for soliciting John's at the Subway station?  

Prove you were not.  

Kazan

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 02:53:08 PM »
Straw - were you that guy arrested down my block for soliciting John's at the Subway station?  

Prove you were not.  

Isn't it great! You can just accuse people of anything via an anonymous source, and suddenly the burden of proof lies with the accused ::)
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Fury

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 02:54:30 PM »
when your defense of romney's actions is "well, the piece of shit kenyan we hate is doing the exact same thing"...

it's not much of a defense. 

You make this argument all the time, dickhead.

In-fact, this has been your defense for Obama's entire presidency.  ::)

Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 03:03:40 PM »
Straw - were you that guy arrested down my block for soliciting John's at the Subway station?  

Prove you were not.  

wow -you really are the dumbest lawyer on the planet aren't you

first you could go look at the police report or you can tell me what day it happened and I could prove to you I was in CA at that time

is this really the best example you could think of

shit, it's your neighborhood afterall so it's much more likely it was you than me

where we you when this guy was arrested..... oh  yeah you were right there

Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 03:05:34 PM »
Isn't it great! You can just accuse people of anything via an anonymous source, and suddenly the burden of proof lies with the accused ::)

what Reid is doing is very smart

He's keeping the issue alive and turning up the heat and putting Romney in a "no win" situation

Romney has to defend himself but then everyone can understand that Romney can prove Reid wrong any time he wants but he chooses not to do so


Hugo Chavez

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 03:08:22 PM »
Isn't it great! You can just accuse people of anything via an anonymous source, and suddenly the burden of proof lies with the accused ::)
You should see the things I've done per what Fury has outed me for lol.... 

Kazan

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 03:15:22 PM »
what Reid is doing is very smart

He's keeping the issue alive and turning up the heat and putting Romney in a "no win" situation

Romney has to defend himself but then everyone can understand that Romney can prove Reid wrong any time he wants but he chooses not to do so



Yeah lets hope this flows over into the justice system ::)
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JBGRAY

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »
NOBODY outside the grossly liberal-biased media gives a flying fuck if Romney releases his tax returns or not.  Liberal politicians are stating that the American people want to see his returns, but that is not true.

Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2012, 03:37:19 PM »
Yeah lets hope this flows over into the justice system ::)

Reid isn't accusing Romney of a crime so there isn't any comparison in that regard

If Reid is lying then Romney can easily prove that if he chooses to do so

Hugo Chavez

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 03:39:29 PM »
NOBODY outside the grossly liberal-biased media gives a flying fuck if Romney releases his tax returns or not.  Liberal politicians are stating that the American people want to see his returns, but that is not true.
Fox news is liberal?  They said it on there too.

lol and Republicans have gone nuts over having dems release their tax returns in the past saying that the American people want to see them.

Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 03:41:13 PM »
NOBODY outside the grossly liberal-biased media gives a flying fuck if Romney releases his tax returns or not. Liberal politicians are stating that the American people want to see his returns, but that is not true.

you forgot the long line of Republican politicians, pundits, and various conservative publications that have all said the same thing

Oh yeah, you all forgot the recent Gallup poll that also shows a majority of Americans want it as well

http://www.gallup.com/poll/155897/majority-americans-romney-release-tax-returns.aspx/

basically your entire post is completely wrong

how is it that you're so completely misinformed on this subject

rachaelsnav

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 04:08:04 PM »
I have a report that say Reid showers with Sandusky prove me wrong.

Seriously do you want a president who has been very successful and can figure out the tax code and use it to his advantage or one who has never had a private industry job and was given everything in his life from tax payers?

Straw Man

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Re: How Mitt’s Tax Returns Show His Character Defect
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »
I have a report that say Reid showers with Sandusky prove me wrong.

Seriously do you want a president who has been very successful and can figure out the tax code and use it to his advantage or one who has never had a private industry job and was given everything in his life from tax payers?

I've said before that I think Romney has used illegal schemes to evade taxes and I believe has been audited (which he said he has) and been caught and required to pay fines/penalties and back taxes.   Those are my beliefs based on Romney statements and I don't see that as a good feature in a POTUS

BTW - Sandusky is a pedophile and Reid is an old man so back to the drawing board for you on that one

you need to think of an analogy where you make a charge about Reid that he can easily disprove by releasing some documents which are totally in his control